Regarding the upcoming NatGas/FertSynth rework...

[PhailRaptor]

So with the patch notes to the Cosmic Upgrade's Preview build, it's been obvious that they are making a balance pass on the systems working with Natural Gas.  Basically, the NatGas Generator and the Fertilizer Synthesizer.  I'm sure most of you have had some strong feelings one way or another about the relationship between them, and the play-patterns that it creates in the game.

In the current build (Ranch 2), the NatGas Generator consumes 60 g/s of NatGas, transforming it into 67.5 g/s P-H2O, 82.5 g/s CO2, 800 W power, and 20 W heat.  The FertSynth consumes 150 g/s P-H2O and 120 W of power to produce 20 g/s NatGas, 120 g/s Fertilizer, and 3.75 W of heat.  This gives us a ratio of 3 FertSynths to every NatGas Generator, each such unit producing 82.5 g/s CO2, 120 g/s Fertilizer, 440 W power( 200 after the Gas Pump), and 31.25 W of heat.  It consumes 382.5 g/s of P-H2O to do so.

Thanks to @R9MX4, we have these screenshots of the tooltips of the relevant buildings from the Cosmic preview build:

So now it would take 9 FertSynths to support a single NatGas Generator.  That unit size would consume 256.5 g/s P-H2O (a reduction of 126 g/s), 540 g/s Dirt (new), 216 g/s Phosphorite (new), and 280 W of power (not counting the Gas Pump, a reduction of 720 W).  This unit will produce 22.5 g/s CO2 (a reduction of 60 g/s), 1,080 g/s Fertilizer, and 185 W of heat.

Personally, I don't see a problem with making the NatGasGen/FertSynth loop less efficient, or even in removing it.  But looking at this holistically, its a massive nerf to the NatGas Generator.  Period.  Full stop.

Since you can't rely on the map generating a usable NatGas Generator (the average NatGas Vent appears to be around 40 g/s?  Or is it 35 g/s?), you need an alternative source of NatGas to make up for the shortfall and put your overall production into some multiple of what the NatGas Generator consumes.  The FertSynth can still do this, but it's going to cost you in both power and other resources, namely Dirt and Phosphorite.  And you're probably not going to make a profit on Power doing it, either.  Not to mention the increase in heat that you now have to deal with, that will require a more robust cooling solution to handle, which will in turn cost you more power, which can become a runaway problem.

With NatGas Vents being unreliable, and FertSynths being inefficient, the only place you can get more NatGas is from Oil.  Either as a byproduct from using the Oil Refinery (which is incredibly inefficient) or by boiling Petro (100% mass efficient).  Either way, you're talking a significant investment of time and infrastructure just to access it, let alone utilize it to your advantage.  It just feels like NatGas Gens went from something useful and reliable, to something that is an afterthought to other systems.

Furthermore, the changes to the FertSynth go beyond just the relationship with the NatGas Generator.  But I feel like that's too broad of a topic to discuss here.  It affects too many other aspects of the game, from Farming, to Ranching, to power systems...  It needs its own thread to discuss the wide ranging ramifications.

[Kabrute]

one the feedback loop was explained to me I walked away from it, then I ran, then i sprinted, so far so fast that I completely quit using nat gas.  Now if they buff the geysers a bit I feel it would be about perfect for A) providing power, B) getting extra aqua.  Right now there feels like plenty of water on the map so it only seems reasonable that if you are going to nerf one source of gas to boost another....

[Lutzkhie]

24 minutes ago, Kabrute said:

buff the geysers

yes please

[Technoincubus]

I don't think I will ever build a fert synth. after current patch. Not worth the effort. I would say transporting phosphorite and the dirt alone would make fert. synth a deal-breaker for me.

[Carnis]

Before ranching. You had 8litres of clean water / second guaranteed. Your endgame food was either puft/morb/dusk caps - or watered plants... Sleet wheat, bristle etc.

 

These plants were incredibly efficient spacewise, but you needed very strict heat control and megawatts of Power to run the tuners.

Natgas was it, heat - deletion, fertiliser for sleet, infinite Power. It was good to remove it.

 

I didn't build one NG/fert plant in ranching II. Food is so much easier now and water so scarce. Power on the otherhand, comes very cheap and is barely needed. If you arent boiling stuff or managing water temperature or cooling polymer press you can get away completely with near 0 power systems.

 

I see the NG as a very cool water source now, that selfpowers.

[Lutzkhie]

dupes inside an asteroid making fertilizer with a bunch of stuff, it looks like the fertilizer in the game is commercialize like the one in real life
i remember the movie "the martian" in order to survive (just like the dupes trying to survive) he used his own "stuff" as fertilizer

[Soulwind]

Phail,  in addition to the power, heat, and resource issues, you also left out the MASSIVE increase to either Dupe Time

or the requirement of a rather complex conveyer system (power, resources, infrastructure, complexity) in order to supply

that many synthesizers with resources and the MASSIVE increase in space required to house all that equipment. 

Let's be honest here, if you are going through the hassle of trying to setup a synth power plant, you aren't just running 1 generator. 

At 9 synths per gen, this is completely unworkable. I run between 12-20 Dupes and they are all ALWAYS busy already.  As is

I expect that 3/4 of the plant will always be idle awaiting resources.

[abud]

In ranch II, I use only 7 NatGen and around 15 FertSynths, pretty sure many player using much more. In fact I used this NatLoop (or whatever it is called) and affected by these changes. But even with those numbers, my FertSynths only working when my fert compactor not full. Mainly it is used for sage hatches and little for farm. I didn't make it mainly for power, but for huge demand of fert from my sage ranch. Those NatGen is there just to make sure nothing wasted. When in power crisis and need more NatGas, I just cook some oil.

I fully agree with those nerf on FertSynths minus dirt and phosphorite part (still considering for those two). Not because hard to get those, but because it need solid transport (dupe or sweeper). I agree because in my opinion FertSynths should be used to make fert, not to make power. Power should be just bonus.

I'm not sure about those nerf on NatGen. Mainly because still not sure how it will balance with geyser and oil production. Probably like you said, NatGen will went down from being reliable power source into just NatGas cleaner. But I'm okay with that, because I'm not depend on single power source.

[Alfons100]

My cup of tea about it is:

Previously to why it was such a desirable setup is because of the ridicilously low required input and how much power it gave. Compared to everything else. All you need is feeding it a bit of Polluted water and you're good to go. It needed a nerf.

However, currently with the way that Fertilizer makers has a more indepth recipe that it also requires phosphorite and dirt, it becomes harder to do. Now instead of just needing polluted water, you also need composts and Dreckos. But now, even if you give all the resources, a Fertilizer maker gives 10g per second, and with the NGG requiring 90 per sec (Right?), you can see that you do not get any positive power out of it, negative, rather. Despite the new things it takes to make the fertilizer and natural gas you will not get any positive amount.

Fertilizer makers should produce 30g Naturalgas per sec, and require the resources it needs as it does now (Phosphor and Dirt). With NGG's also producing less CO2 and emits more heat, NGG is still good, but no where as meta as it used to. Makes you consider different power sources such as Steam, or Solar panels. 

Why I still want it is because it adds more viable ways to use the NGG, either through a Geyser, heating up oil, and using waste water which is being removed as viable now. Multiple ways to tackle an issue is the name for the game. De-meta-nizing the Fertilizer maker + Natural Gas generator is perfectly fair, but literally making it not work is not something I agree with.

If you happen to have a lot of waste water now, you most likely will just refine it into clean water again, since you do not need that much fertilizer at all. You had the choice to either refine it into water, or make it into fertilizer and power. Now however, you will only use a small portion of your polluted water for sufficient fertilizer and the rest is being recycled. You do not even need that much fertilizer, one or two machines and you should have enough (I believe). 

[SackMaggie]

I like this change. Because I'll have reason to use other power source.

[WanderingKid]

The change itself was necessary.  Fertilizer Synths have been abused for a long time, and mostly didn't matter because fertilizer didn't matter.  To me it still doesn't, but everyone's got their thing.  Tossing the fertilizer into the hatch pit was as good a use as any for me, as Mushrooms do plenty of work on their own, and slime's easy to get for a long time.

The geysers have been crap for a while now, same with the cool steam geysers.  I'm sitting on one that gets ~35 g/s average, and I thought that was pretty good.  The CO2 change is actually rather nice for a *mid game* power source, as it's strong enough to make you learn how to handle it, but it's no longer overbearing for only one or two NGGs.  The heat is HUGE.  Hydrogen + 2 Wheezewort room with radiant radiator seems to be about breaking even to a bit lower on the temperature.  You don't need to do anything extreme to deal with it, but you need to know what you're after.

The PH2O isn't too strong, either, but it's nice to use when you'd be looking at starting to sieve anyway to replace the opening clean water supply and you've drained a few of the nearby swamps and have to go spelunking for more water.  I have to say I really think the Gas Generator is in a good place now.

The ways to GET natural gas though are going to need a bit of an overhaul.  The best source of it was the Fertilizer Synth, and well, that's out.  I can't even think of why I'd even use the fertilizer synth anymore, when I can just get my dirt from the compost heaps.  Our other sources are currently oil dependent (Well and Refinery).  Having to boil crude into something inane is not my preference in play styles.  Oh, it's fun, sure, but after you've done it once without sandbox you really have to start wondering why you don't just stick two dupes into the refineries with art spam and let 'em have at it.

That's my biggest problem with the alteration.  You could use the NG/fert loop to use up a lot of excess PH2O to buy time while you got stronger systems into position.  That time to adjust is changed significantly.  It's no longer worth the infrastructure UNLESS you run into a geyser to bother working with it for power.  NGG (when you didn't build huge racks of them) filled a nice place in the power climb.  Coal gets you going and is your backup power, Hydrogen either powers your atmosphere or (if you're like me) you use it to start offsetting power demands and get your coal more stabilized.

The next 'stop' on the power train was NGG.  That's out now.  You drive either straight up or straight down now.  Head for solar, or burrow into the oil fields.  Both of these are end game power systems that require significant investment in resources and time.  The 'middle layer' for power just evaporated.  I hope that the devs have an idea for how to keep NGG as a middle of the road power source, and not just something you end up tacking onto the oil system because "It's there anyway..."

[SlowMaybe]

what's needed then is a Natural Gas Synthesizer!

[chemie]

The changes to fertilzer makers in regards to power makes sense.  The issue is actually now fertilizer, or really phosphorite.

To make phosphorite sustainable requires a large dreko ranch which requires a lilly farm.  All this to make fertilizer which you were making for your micronutrients stations to have berries/wheat/mushrooms grow in 1/2 the time and use half the resources (such as water).

Instead, you now just ditch the farms and just use more water.  Take that PW you were feeding the fertilizers with, run through sieve and supplement the higher water demand of your non-farmed crops.  Makes the game less interesting.

Also, forgot sage hatch ranching....does not make sense to have to ranch drekos/lillies just so you can ranch sage for coal (or just mine coal instead of mine phosphorite in the caustic biome).

I now see my blossom/wheat food source (berry mush) going to wild wheat harvest (just not worth making the fertilizer) and as long as I have the fresh water, forgetting about having farmers and farm stations and just having a larger farm with large water demand for the blossoms.  I don't like the fact that I now have even more useless buildings and the dumb, low-tech way makes the most sense. (I now eliminate farm stations, farms, 1 deg C water production because it is not worth having to add dreko ranches, Lilly farms and fertilizer makers to make fertilizer which is now a very high order material)

[Sevio]

There's one more change not mentioned here. The Oil Refinery now outputs 90 g/s of Natural Gas instead of 60 g/s. This matches the new consumption of a Natural Gas Generator so it keeps the Refinery from taking a hit there. Still not as efficient as boiling oil but I'm not sure that particular mechanic is what should be used as a baseline for balancing.

Overall, I think this change was necessary because Petroleum is definitely a more lategame power source and deserves to have a better potential compared to Natural Gas.

[chemie]

38 minutes ago, Sevio said:

There's one more change not mentioned here. The Oil Refinery now outputs 90 g/s of Natural Gas instead of 60 g/s. This matches the new consumption of a Natural Gas Generator so it keeps the Refinery from taking a hit there. Still not as efficient as boiling oil but I'm not sure that particular mechanic is what should be used as a baseline for balancing.

Overall, I think this change was necessary because Petroleum is definitely a more lategame power source and deserves to have a better potential compared to Natural Gas.

Before, you lost 50% of the oil in making petroleum vs nat gas.  With the increase in the refinery, combined with nerf to NGG, I wonder if it even makes sense to turn oil to NG directly vs making the petroeum,?

Anyway, what is the mid-game energy source?  Coal early and then I think you rush to the oil (rush to the surface is not mid game since it takes a ton of steel/glass etc to get solar going)l

[Sevio]

4 minutes ago, chemie said:

Before, you lost 50% of the oil in making petroleum vs nat gas.  With the increase in the refinery, combined with nerf to NGG, I wonder if it even makes sense to turn oil to NG directly vs making the petroeum,?

Anyway, what is the mid-game energy source?  Coal early and then I think you rush to the oil (rush to the surface is not mid game since it takes a ton of steel/glass etc to get solar going)l

I don't think there really is a rush for power if you're not setting up industrial scale temperature management stuff. Granted I tend to run my bases with few dupes (currently 5 in my cosmic testing game), but so far I've mostly been doing fine running off a single hydrogen generator supplemented with dupe wheels. And I have hydrogen to spare unless I do a lot of gas/liquid pumping or start up the metal refinery.

The refinery still only gives 5 kg petroleum for 10 kg of oil but it is fairly cheap to run and there is so much oil on the map that you don't need to worry about running out of oil during the midgame.

[chemie]

1 minute ago, Sevio said:

I don't think there really is a rush for power if you're not setting up industrial scale temperature management stuff. Granted I tend to run my bases with few dupes (currently 5 in my cosmic testing game), but so far I've mostly been doing fine running off a single hydrogen generator supplemented with dupe wheels. And I have hydrogen to spare unless I do a lot of gas/liquid pumping or start up the metal refinery.

The refinery still only gives 5 kg petroleum for 10 kg of oil but it is fairly cheap to run and there is so much oil on the map that you don't need to worry about running out of oil during the midgame.

We all play differently; I see 5 dups as "early game" even if you are playing to late cycles.  I guess I mean "higher dup count" by mid-game and late game is 16 dups.

[Zailormoon]

Yeah i think a little bit of kick in soft place is required at this point. Fert.Synth. stacks is braindead easy. You place them and you basically won the game.

[avc15]

2 hours ago, SlowMaybe said:

what's needed then is a Natural Gas Synthesizer!

you can synthesize nat gas now - from any process that produces oil and/or CO2. Put some heat in -> out comes nat gas

nat gas still has absurd energy density compared to any other fuel in the game, they have just made it a very late game thing to get your hands on massive quantities.

[Nativel]

FertSynth became useless building, why?

1. We don't need fertilizer it self any more, what for? For Sleet wheats? No, now it's useing dirt like it was year ago, with is not possible to synth (well almost not possible, I know about p/water boiling and also I know that you have to boil like megatonns of p/water to gain small piece of dirt.)

2. You need to spent 9x120 watts on FertSynth plus 90g per sec for pumping it into Nat gas gen so 90/500*240w (because gas pump make 500 g/s we need to know energy consuption) 43,2 watts I wil not spent energy for CO2 remuve so let's say it will be consumed by slickers.

I'm not count on p/water pump there will be 8 watts of energy consuption - so it's almost nothing and you can use p/water from toilets and bathrooms - will be ok.

Ok, so to power up 1 Natural gas generator with will giver 800 or 1200 watts of energy to us we need to spent 120*9+43,2=1123 watts with is simply pointless you can use manual generator and it will give you 20 times more energy, because to bring all of those materials like GODLY DIRT and Phophorite to FertSynth you will need to spent alot of dupe time, to dig those materials out to bring them and to place them every second into this FertSynth, or it will consume more energy on autosweepers and then it will be complitely useless - we will spent energy on useless material like fertilizer with is no needed in the game any more - just delete it.

[avc15]

Y u yellin bro

All joking aside. Perpetual motion machines shouldn't be part of the game universe.

I tend to like making fertilizer, because I always need something to cook into dirt. Slime is a bit more challenging to keep around, and it serves better use by being fed into a distiller.

But synthesizing fertilizer should be on a scale of "almost free" not "infinite free electric power"

[juni3227]

You know, in reality, fertilzers are made out of thin air.

This is not an metaphor.

Than, amonia is used for making fertilizer, like phospherite in the game.

Fertilizer need three 3 primary elements for plants. Phosphorus, Kalium and Nitrogen.

Phosphorus is abundent in earth(just like the game), Kalium is abundent in sea, And Nitragen consist about 75% of air. But breaking down Nitrogen and sythesising into amonia which can be used for making Fertilizer was EXTREMEY difficult. Its because Nitrogen gas(N2) is VERY stable molecule. Until Fritz Haber found the way which gave him the Nobel prize.

This was very serious problem that Thanos sounds perfectly fine. Malthus cliamed that they should let poor and incapable just die. Becuase food production was very limited and letting them live would only cause more war for food. However, well... this 'Malthus Trap' is completely broken because thanks to Haber.

Think of it, there is no Nitragen in the game. Probably intentional. If this was in the game... ah... well, the game would be for the chemist.

BTW, is there any way to make dirt other then composeter? Cooking slime or Algae? seriously? We really need to talk about this. Dirt can not be recycled. There must be an way. Like adding fertilizer and phorspherite into clay or sand with PW or whatever... Also fertilzer synthesiser consumes phospherite and PW only. Dirt is too much...

[avc15]

pdirt, fertilizer, and slime all cook into dirt. Maybe algae too? I am not certain.

[Nativel]

1 minute ago, avc15 said:

pdirt, fertilizer, and slime all cook into dirt.

How to cook fertilizer into dirt? With temp is needed, is it useable for feeding plants after that? How much heat it will produce? Will we die from heat or from starving after all?

[avc15]

1 minute ago, Nativel said:

How to cook fertilizer into dirt? With temp is needed, is it useable for feeding plants after that? How much heat it will produce? Will we die from heat or from starving after all?

I don't remember the exact temp you have to get it to, something like 125C? But yes, it is too hot to farm with until you cool it back down.

Build some kind of central cooling plant for your industry.