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8 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

but not for every action on everygame... also i just tested, you can still cancel pan flute animation, just not as stupidly fast as before which isnt a bad thing in a game that is suppose to punish mistakes

I already played since day 1 of the lunar event and didn't felt at all any difference too. Although I never play in a public server with 20 or more people on it, so maybe the situation is worse there, this doesn't really touch me. The only thing I agree 100% on is attacks being inconsistent, which is something that always been on Dst and I agree that it's time to fix it. Rng fighting on your character is not cool. 

Edited by Milordo
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15 minutes ago, JoeW said:

*snap*

Speaking of design disagreement. I wanted to ask if it's possible to revert the stick used to pick emotes (and chat and server commands) in the R3 menu. It used to be Lstick to choose and you couldn't move, and now you can move (which is pointless - why would you move if you plan on emoting/chatting (which takes away any control due to the ps4 keyboard)), but using Rstick for choosing is a bit uncomfortable for my hand - as rapidly switching between Rstick and X to choose something in the menu, while not bothersome in singleplayer, gets annoying in multiplayer when I need to chat/emote often.

If you can't directly revert, then is making it a setting possible? You made settings for lesser issues in the past (like the moving head icons)

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I feel like Klei likes to overfix things to a point where it heavily affects others. Like back at Wanda's Alarming Clock stunlock, they fixed it and after that mactusk and no eyed deer become extremely frustrating to take out.

Edited by Spino43
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I'm actually glad you replied @JoeW I understand the frustration of the OP, but I also always try to keep myself calm and my tone kind, this is why I usually don't reply to posts with an aggressive tone. I believe I was rude only one time in these forums towards the work of the staff, and apart from this exception, I always tried to see things from Klei's side, not only as delevopers, but also as full-time workers who invest their time and resources into a product.

This is why I respect that the team is keeping their own pace at addressing issues, and that not everything has to go according to what the playerbase expects. However when a certain popular discussion or suggestion gets ignored by the staff in a platform specifically targeted at providing a place for (constructive) discussions, player feedback, and keeping an active community, I think it is fair for one side to feel left out from the conversation. In this community, I've realized that more people than one might assume are open towards a middle ground solution, and I believe that constructive discussions start at a point where all sides feel that their voices are heard almost equally loud. Again, I don't support an aggressive tone, however most people don't just go rage on others without a proper reason. This is the point I'm trying to make here.

 

1 hour ago, JoeW said:

what causes your comments to be taken "one ear and out the other". 

On the other hand, while I think it is fair for you to paraphrase the OP's post in such a way in this specific scenario, this reply and the topic itself also raise the question on what one should be doing to get their voices heard to the developer team at all, especially in situations where the developer team seems to be content with the end results while a part of the community thinks that there is a game-breaking issue or an intended/unintended design that raises concerns where a certain aspect of the game is headed towards. 

The OP did get their answers in the end, and ironically we can see how this happened. No one expects a full transparency from Klei's side, but had the community have gotten an answer sooner, even a small one, I doubt this whole conversation would start in the first place. The core issue here is that a certain part of the community feels like their ideas don't matter at all, and to be honest I can relate to this. Even when we make a suggestion or post a bug report in the most civilised manners, the default result is either getting completely ignored (not even getting a "known issue" tag for example), or getting made fun of or sometimes even getting flamed by other forum users. When the staff stays silent in these scenarios, how is it even possible for the side with the "controversial" arguments to even get their voices heard, or to prove that their arguments are not controversial in the first place?

The playerbase needs the feedback from the developer's to make their suggestions, and I don't think pointing out every aspect that we think is relevant is going to create the environment for a constructive discussion, exactly because of the situation I explained earlier. However, since we are going over to the forums to give our feedback and we keep on doing this despite the negativity and/or the indifference, I think it should be clear that we are doing this because we care about how the game developes, and seeing just a small amount of support from the staff for "controversial" people like us would not only help a lot in building a healthy environment for constructive discussions, but would also help us feel to be a part of a larger community.

I hope I was clear enough in voicing my concerns here, and hope for any kind of feedback because I'm starting to feel like joining the forums and expecting to get heard by the staff was a big mistake on my part.

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42 minutes ago, JoeW said:

If you have points (specific points) as to why you disagree with that design, then please by all means make those points. 

instead of making the whole animation unstopable, would it be possible to make it possible to cancel before the item consumes (I mean, if your book/pan flute loses durability then the animation turns unstopable, but if it doenst consume durability neither triggered the effect, then the player could cancel it) then missclicking wouldnt be a problem, this is just an idea, idk if it is possible to add into the game.

now about why I disagree: I didnt like this change because of missclick, lag, and gameplay, example, if you comit a mistake like using a pan flute near a horde of shadow monkeys and realize there is no time to actually play the animation, you could just cancel it and run, then try again later, but if there is no anim cancel (the way it is now), if you realize it wont be enough time, you are already dead, there is no way fix your mistake.

this is my opinion, if anyone else have more points about why cancel animation is good to have in pan flute/books, share your opinion, and people who want pan flute/books to have the full animation (unstopable), dont be shy and also share why you think it is good in this way.

And by any chance, if I ever offended a dev or a forum user, I am sorry, sometimes in the debate we get more serious about a game than we should be.

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31 minutes ago, mr. brj said:
Spoiler

I'm actually glad you replied @JoeW I understand the frustration of the OP, but I also always try to keep myself calm and my tone kind, this is why I usually don't reply to posts with an aggressive tone. I believe I was rude only one time in these forums towards the work of the staff, and apart from this exception, I always tried to see things from Klei's side, not only as delevopers, but also as full-time workers who invest their time and resources into a product.

This is why I respect that the team is keeping their own pace at addressing issues, and that not everything has to go according to what the playerbase expects. However when a certain popular discussion or suggestion gets ignored by the staff in a platform specifically targeted at providing a place for (constructive) discussions, player feedback, and keeping an active community, I think it is fair for one side to feel left out from the conversation. In this community, I've realized that more people than one might assume are open towards a middle ground solution, and I believe that constructive discussions start at a point where all sides feel that their voices are heard almost equally loud. Again, I don't support an aggressive tone, however most people don't just go rage on others without a proper reason. This is the point I'm trying to make here.

 

On the other hand, while I think it is fair for you to paraphrase the OP's post in such a way in this specific scenario, this reply and the topic itself also raise the question on what one should be doing to get their voices heard to the developer team at all, especially in situations where the developer team seems to be content with the end results while a part of the community thinks that there is a game-breaking issue or an intended/unintended design that raises concerns where a certain aspect of the game is headed towards. 

The OP did get their answers in the end, and ironically we can see how this happened. No one expects a full transparency from Klei's side, but had the community have gotten an answer sooner, even a small one, I doubt this whole conversation would start in the first place. The core issue here is that a certain part of the community feels like their ideas don't matter at all, and to be honest I can relate to this. Even when we make a suggestion or post a bug report in the most civilised manners, the default result is either getting completely ignored (not even getting a "known issue" tag for example), or getting made fun of or sometimes even getting flamed by other forum users. When the staff stays silent in these scenarios, how is it even possible for the side with the "controversial" arguments to even get their voices heard, or to prove that their arguments are not controversial in the first place?

The playerbase needs the feedback from the developer's to make their suggestions, and I don't think pointing out every aspect that we think is relevant is going to create the environment for a constructive discussion, exactly because of the situation I explained earlier. However, since we are going over to the forums to give our feedback and we keep on doing this despite the negativity and/or the indifference, I think it should be clear that we are doing this because we care about how the game developes, and seeing just a small amount of support from the staff for "controversial" people like us would not only help a lot in building a healthy environment for constructive discussions, but would also help us feel to be a part of a larger community.

I hope I was clear enough in voicing my concerns here, and hope for any kind of feedback because I'm starting to feel like joining the forums and expecting to get heard by the staff was a big mistake on my part.

 

This whole post says exactly what we are asking for. Thank you Brj Putting the words so eloquently.  We have been told time and time again on updates that the forums is where people go to voice concerns. And I would like to build a healthy environment for it As a creator for the game and for anyone who has concerns  so that way they shouldn't have to be aggro to be heard.

Edited by DVGMedia
fixing last sentence
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1 hour ago, JoeW said:

Ultimately our default is going to start with our design. If you have points (specific points) as to why you disagree with that design, then please by all means make those points.

Can we get tools to speed up/automate gathering, digging, tilling, chopping, mining etc? Whether it's like turf raiser or Hamlet shears or any other design I'm sure you have in mind.

Can you remove the button mashing from mining/chopping and speed up the overall task? These are mundane tasks that happen quite often and the constant button mashing makes me concerned about the health of my controller when I play my favorite game.

Another thing is console targetting for both enemies and entities because trying to take water or fish from a pond with it's weeds intact is sometimes almost impossible so is trying to pick up fallen items between grass tufts/saplings or fixing/cleaning toothtrap fields.

Enemy targetting also get finicky when near walls/fences and makes the overall experience painful.

Also please add better targeting to all the weapons and tools that require precision.

Please and thank you.

Edited by Cloakingsumo198
Dam I didn't mention making attack speed a consistent speed
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2 hours ago, JoeW said:

Finally, for any given change in the game there are going to be people who like it, people who don't like it and people that don't care. Ultimately our default is going to start with our design. If you have points (specific points) as to why you disagree with that design, then please by all means make those points. 

 

I think this last paragraph does a good job of highlighting the divide between the developer and end-users. 

The end-users, at least the one's that are vocal on this issue, are coming from the perspective that the goal of implementing changes to the game (specifically bug-fixing) is to make the game more fun/enjoyable for the maximum amount of players possible.

On the otherhand, the developer's focus on making changes is based on the intended design of the game.  Therefore, if there is an aspect of the game that makes it more enjoyable, but was un-intended by the developers, the developers will remove it.

 

If I'm right about this, then I gotta say that I'm not a big fan of this approach, unless we're talking about something that completely breaks the game.  The players being able to chop/mine/hammer/attack faster isn't some game-breaking bug, so I don't think the desire to rigidly stick to the intended design should trump the end-user experience at least on this issue.

Edited by Lardee
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5 hours ago, Another membe said:

You guys always say the game is too easy and it needs difficulty, but the moment devs make something less easy/remove an exploit, you immediately whine about it.

quoting again for clarity

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6 hours ago, Another membe said:

You guys always say the game is too easy and it needs difficulty, but the moment devs make something less easy/remove an exploit, you immediately whine about it.

I think when people say the game is too easy that they don’t want movement, attack, spell casting etc animations to be made slower.. I think what that really means is we’ve been playing the same map layouts with the same biomes and mobs since like 2013..

And it’s not fair for me to say that because all of the Return of Them (and all the updates following it) have been GREAT! But.. that’s just the point too now isn’t it? People didn’t (well at least I didn’t..) really get back into the game until Klei started updating it with new content. But that new content has mostly been a small biome here or there, 1 or 2 new mobs, some mostly avoidable side quests, I don’t want to sound mean or ungrateful, I’ve absolutely loved all the work Klei has done (& continues to do) for the game- 

Klei promises big things for the future of the franchise, I mean they been hyping the hell out of this upcoming roadmap.. so I’m certain there is some cool stuff coming- but will it be as big & as full of content as entire world altering dlc expansions Shipwrecked or Hamlet?

Will it add some new seasons to co-exist alongside the existing ones? Maybe even update the existing ones to be more different and unique? Will it challenge the way I get around the map by adding hills, slopes & cliffs? Will it break that massive (highly convenient) cluster of biomes that have every resource you’ll ever need up into little islands I’ll need to sail between to gather resources?

Difficulty doesn’t = making animations slower.. I’m sorry it just doesn’t.

And more importantly what does that say about the game itself if the way to make things more difficult is to reduce attack, work & spell casting speeds? 
Can’t they get more creative and add hamlet like mobs to the game with eye beam lasers, aoe pounce attacks, or even just rework existing mobs like Bunnymen to dig into the ground and pop back out in another area? Similar to fighting the Wee-vole bugs in Hamlet?

Maybe I ask way too much of this game & its developers, maybe my comments even annoy or stress them out.. but I just want to see the game (and franchise) live up to its fullest potential rather than becoming an abandoned afterthought once they lost all the Will power and heart to want to continue keeping it alive.

And to play devils advocate: If reducing the speed of attacking, spell casting etc fixed some exploits players were being able to fight certain mobs or engage content in a way Klei did NOT intend, fixes that unintended issue- then Klei does what’s best for the GAME and how they expect it to perform, even if we as PLAYERS don’t agree with it.

It’s okay to express your concerns/desires about the game to the Devs (that’s what a forum is made for isn’t it??) But there’s no need to be as rude as the OP was about it either, so as Joe would say- please keep posts friendly & on topic, if you want to discuss a point, discuss it.. but try to do so in a civilized & polite manner :love_heart:

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6 hours ago, Another membe said:

You guys always say the game is too easy and it needs difficulty, but the moment devs make something less easy/remove an exploit, you immediately whine about it.

its almost like there's more than 1 person in this forum

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I will never understand the 

"You guys whine every time they make the game more difficult, blah blah blah!"

On threads that have nothing to do with difficulty. And especially on threads that try to address increased tedium. Idk, maybe I'm getting old. 

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I'm not gonna lie if this is the direction klei is taking by slowing down the gameplay loop overall in gathering and fighting. Then I'm hoping for that new combat overhaul and expanded tools/automation to make up for it.

I can't condone tedium just for the sake of tedium.

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Just like anything it will take some time to really understand how everything is affected with the new system. If they are able to fix up old spaghetti code to make it better for stuff in the future I am all for it. This post from jesse helps calm some nerves a bit. Its really just going to be a wait and see type of thing. I am hopeful they are going to be able to fix our woes in due time.
Currently yes timings are accurate.. But maybe just tweak them by a frame back to how most players recognize? When you finish cleaning up the spaghetti of course.


https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1007488689175285782/1068017588568862770/image.png

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I don't really have a stake in the animation-cancelling thing - but speaking briefly I'm all for it being added back when the devs are able as a QOL thing for more snappy gameplay and less tedium. It makes sense that players who have gotten used to its presence, especially speedrunners, are gonna feel especially affected by its loss - and they have a right to voice their opinion here.

That said, I'm disturbed by the level of entitlement some players feel they are owed, then throwing shade to the devs working hard on the game, new or old. The comparison to triple A companies also falls flat when you realize there are plenty of triple A companies that do far less communicating and effort in either taking feedback or improving their game.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but even as a distant forum user I can also recall many, many instances the devs have clearly taken feedback to heart, so I have no idea where the idea that the devs have been aloof and mean came from. As Joe said, they just don't spend time bickering with opinions.

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4 hours ago, Well-met said:

quoting again for clarity

I never meant that about slower chopping and combat. Only about casting spells/panflute (a powerful action need some commitment, like Abby's flower) and boss exploits that let you stand still and hold f (while fun, they are unfair).

I hate chopping wood with an axe as much as other people. And the attack speed differences - i didn't really notice them when I was playing on ps4... but if attacking is slower for no reason - that is artificial difficulty.

2 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

I will never understand the 

"You guys whine every time they make the game more difficult, blah blah blah!"

On threads that have nothing to do with difficulty. And especially on threads that try to address increased tedium. Idk, maybe I'm getting old. 

Being unable to cancel long casts is not tedium - powerful spells require commitment. But chopping is tedious (less so with moon axes, but not less enough), and slower combat is just artificial difficulty, yeah.

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20 hours ago, BezKa said:

Developers don't owe us anything.

Feeling entitled is not good. But this completely polar opposite attitude is not great either. What’s the point of giving feedback at all, then?

If this was really their opinion—which it is not, since I’m quoting a player and not a developer—then they might as well shut these forums down.

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11 hours ago, Atkvin said:

Just playing devil's advocate here, but even as a distant forum user I can also recall many, many instances the devs have clearly taken feedback to heart, so I have no idea where the idea that the devs have been aloof and mean came from. As Joe said, they just don't spend time bickering with opinions.

Can't agree more there's so many examples of player feedback effecting the game be it disease's removal, new world gen settings, character refreshes, the new farming system, the ancient guardian rework and more.

17 hours ago, Lardee said:

On the otherhand, the developer's focus on making changes is based on the intended design of the game.  Therefore, if there is an aspect of the game that makes it more enjoyable, but was un-intended by the developers, the developers will remove it.

Personally I perfer this approach because it can end up where expliots have to be designed around when introducing new content making a expliot an unofficial game mechanic.

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1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Personally I perfer this approach because it can end up where expliots have to be designed around when introducing new content making a expliot an unofficial game mechanic.

I understand that that argument.  However, I don't see why both parties can't get what they want.  If there is an exploit (aka unintended feature) that makes the game more enjoyable, and the developers are worried about the exploit potentially having negative ramifications for future game design, IMO the best path forward would be to incorporate the "effect" the bug had into the design.

For example, if there is a bug that lets the players chop/mine/attack faster, the best path forward would be to fix the issue that caused the bug while also changing the design intent so that the chop/mine/attack speed matches that of the exploit.

Edited by Lardee
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16 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

snip

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, wouldn't having to carry out the animations make the game more difficult? If you're trying to use a book or pan flute in a fight you'll have to time things more properly rather than cancelling through. I understand why this would be tedious for resource harvesting, but I feel like this just makes sense in terms of combat. But I feel like I don't have a complete grasp of the nature of the bug/fix anyways. 

And it's kinda sad reading the thread and seeing how people give criticism and respond to it. I know being toxic is kind of a stereotype for gamers but seeing that reinforced by how some people talk is pretty disheartening. Sucks that some people just say the game is bad or the devs are being lazy or on the flip side calling fair critiques entitled. Makes it harder to want to interact with the community when this stuff becomes more prevalent.

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15 minutes ago, Catteflyterpill said:

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, wouldn't having to carry out the animations make the game more difficult? If you're trying to use a book or pan flute in a fight you'll have to time things more properly rather than cancelling through. I understand why this would be tedious for resource harvesting, but I feel like this just makes sense in terms of combat. But I feel like I don't have a complete grasp of the nature of the bug/fix anyways. 

And it's kinda sad reading the thread and seeing how people give criticism and respond to it. I know being toxic is kind of a stereotype for gamers but seeing that reinforced by how some people talk is pretty disheartening. Sucks that some people just say the game is bad or the devs are being lazy or on the flip side calling fair critiques entitled. Makes it harder to want to interact with the community when this stuff becomes more prevalent.

Oh your absolutely correct- certain things being slower such as casting/cast canceling times do indeed provide a sort of Risk Vs Reward system. 
 

But unless I need to chop wood to quickly build a campfire while seconds tick down to an incoming hound wave- I don’t see how making chopping/mining slower will increase difficulty, tedium.. and how long it takes to gather resources compared to actually playing the game, exploring biomes and fighting monsters yes, but difficulty? Only in specific scenarios.

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Just as either a quick fix or bandaid, I wonder how the devs would feel about speeding up chopping/mining across the board to match the speed a player would have attained with the old exploit.

The tedium that players dislike (the reason such an outcry is being made) would be reduced with little impact on the game as it simply replaces the old exploit, and the game would play and control more consistently and smoothly like the devs want.

If they do... all I ask is that they keep the number of the impacts for a tree to fall the same, just its tempo will be sped up - I can't be the only one pavlov trained to expect a stage 3 tree to fall when I've heard the right rhythm/number of hit sounds!

Edited by Atkvin
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