[Game Update] - 529972

[Dwasint]

30 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

He can, and does. I did a side by side comparison with him and wurt (with my girlfriend funnily enough) and wurt couldn’t gather everything nearly as fast. 
 

unless you’re doing a pure “who cuts down trees the fastest” wurt loses hard. She still has to shovel and gather herself, maxwell can literally stand there and still win the race. And if you’re doing a pure “who cuts down trees the fastest” race, bearger is the one who wins. 
 

Bearger was used as a benchmark for the step up from deerclops, nothing more. some people whine that deerclops is too easy for comparison so i mentioned bearger is still doable.

Yeah, woodie can heal mid transformation with a RAID BOSS EXCLUSIVE healing item. If you’ve killed bee queen you’ve got helmets and darkswords and are doing more damage than moose while tanking better too. Moose is an early midgame transformation. 

bees suck against any boss with aoe, maxwells shadows still hold up. Because even deerclops does a whopping 150 damage a hit to the whole group, but only 15 to maxwells shadows. Also it costs like 8 casts of the book that has 3 uses (or have 4 of the book and dont wait) and costs 264 sanity, summoning a shadow while at low health (maxwell can also have multiple books and instead of refueling just switching books) 

i will admit though i wouldnt bring the shadows to klaus, but hey one boss out of like 20 isnt so bad. 

I've done the actual test of this many a times, maxwell loses by a large margin even with the extra logs he gets from stumps, wurt produces more logs than you can pick up with multiple people in a forest. its even worse when maxwell has to micro manage his shadows around the forest where wurt just holds down space to pickup items until empty

[BezKa]

Make Maxwell randomly change places with his shadows whenever they are hit. Splitting your mind into pieces has got to have consequences lol (honeslt I just want chaos)

I haven't had a chance to play the beta yet, but I can't wait to see how it all shapes to be in the end

[Copyafriend]

1 minute ago, Dwasint said:

I've done the actual test of this many a times, maxwell loses by a large margin even with the extra logs he gets from stumps, wurt produces more logs than you can pick up with multiple people in a forest. its even worse when maxwell has to micro manage his shadows around the forest where wurt just holds down space to pickup items until empty

Micromanage them? Wtf are you talking about, i just summon them all and planted the forest close enough to where they could hit all the trees. I mean yeah there’s definitely a good argument for just making the forest bigger as wurt, but if you wanna do that test you have to plant the trees and also compare log amounts to time taken, if maxwell has 50% more logs and is 20% slower he still wins, finally you can also boost him with pigs if you wanna be technical. I think the fastest for maxwell would actually be a forest of baby trees, five chops and a dig for 50% of the 15 chops and a dig for a large tree. But hey im not doing the math, and i’ll admit i dont typically feed more than 10-15 merms for wood harvesting, just feels wasteful to double my amount for a small speed boost

[BezKa]

Also, adding the charge attack to duelists is a perfect opportunity- make them use it only when Maxwell himself has dealt enough damage, the way it worked in Forge. That would make them feel more like an extension of him

[Daniel14676]

2 minutes ago, BezKa said:

Also, adding the charge attack to duelists is a perfect opportunity- make them use it only when Maxwell himself has dealt enough damage, the way it worked in Forge. That would make them feel more like an extension of him

That's an interesting thought. Opens a bunch of ideas that revolve around tying different abilities to Maxwell himself doing damage. (ie: take a hit shields, hp regen, dash attack, etc.)

Not sure what I think about it, but it's interesting.

[mr. brj]

I love the idea of making the duelists more aggressive and I'm super excited to test them out once I have the chance.

The only suggestion I want to provide is to tweak the mechanics involving them in such a way that Maxwell would have to think twice whether he wants to AFK especially during the boss fights (although since he is the puppetmaster, I wouldn't mind him AFKing all the time, so it's really up to what the developers have in their minds).

Maybe Maxwell could receive the same extra Nightmares penalty Wickerbottom has for every two duelists summoned, making consecutive summons more punishimg? Maybe the duelists could cost the pre-rework amount of nightmare fuel, or the cost could be balanced around the avarage DPS of the duelists vs. the cost of an alarming clock (since they both provide shadow-oriented offense)?

These are just some ideas that I believe would maintain the current approach to the duelists without making them less useful. I don't think tweaking the HP, damage cap or the damage numbers would achieve too much in terms of balancing, and it comes with the risk of duelists returning to their state of being aggro fodders instead of actual duelists.

[JesseB_Klei]

10 hours ago, Instant-Noodles said:

There's also a small bug with Maxwell reading the Codex Umbra where his torso flips horizontally mid animation (frames 6 to 61).

This is fixed for the next hotfix.

[GodIess]

7 hours ago, Kyno said:

Aside from picking, I'd like to have Shadow Miners to avoid mining the Glommer's Statue. It's a shame when they break it by "accident" and you can't repair it. 

add the ability to repair the old glommer as a lunar platform)

[Psychic Chicken]

I wonder how good the new duelists are at cancelling CK's healing.

[Arcwell]

14 minutes ago, Psychic Chicken said:

I wonder how good the new duelists are at cancelling CK's healing.

Not very.

[Dwasint]

1 hour ago, Copyafriend said:

Micromanage them? Wtf are you talking about, i just summon them all and planted the forest close enough to where they could hit all the trees. I mean yeah there’s definitely a good argument for just making the forest bigger as wurt, but if you wanna do that test you have to plant the trees and also compare log amounts to time taken, if maxwell has 50% more logs and is 20% slower he still wins, finally you can also boost him with pigs if you wanna be technical. I think the fastest for maxwell would actually be a forest of baby trees, five chops and a dig for 50% of the 15 chops and a dig for a large tree. But hey im not doing the math, and i’ll admit i dont typically feed more than 10-15 merms for wood harvesting, just feels wasteful to double my amount for a small speed boost

as a pure time investment over the span of 2 ingame days wurt produces far more logs than maxwell does even if wurt leaves stumps,  wurt can clearcut an entire forest in like a day and use the second day entirely to dig the stumps which is un-needed.

[Psychic Chicken]

1 minute ago, Arcwell said:

Not very.

Makes sense, but it was worth a try.

[Copyafriend]

1 minute ago, Dwasint said:

as a pure time investment over the span of 2 ingame days wurt produces far more logs than maxwell does even if wurt leaves stumps,  wurt can clearcut an entire forest in like a day and use the second day entirely to dig the stumps which is un-needed.

Man im not trying to be rude when i say this, but honestly either compare them directly in a competition to cut down x number of trees and see how long it takes to get everything done (if you’re shoveling stumps as wurt that includes doing that as well) 

or have wurt bring an army to cut down a forest while maxwell cuts down and shovels a certain area, if wurt gets more logs than whats contained in maxwells area before he finishes she wins. (Basically if she can clearcut and gather 33% faster than maxwell can clearcut shove and gather than she wins)

 

just saying wurt is faster isnt productive. It’d have to be a direct comparison within specific limits

[HowlVoid]

Maxwell's minions spank bosses that already get spanked by minions. I hope they don't nerf them but instead give Maxwell a more interesting weakness like slowly losing HP when his max sanity is very low. Some kind of shadow sickness.

[Quyzbuk]

13 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Maxwell's minions spank bosses that already get spanked by minions. I hope they don't nerf them but instead give Maxwell a more interesting weakness like slowly losing HP when his max sanity is very low. Some kind of shadow sickness.

That's not interesting, that's tedious. And we already have shadow creatures to do that.

This is his shtick, he's had a LOT of time and a lot practice. Not to mention since we can just eat endlessly anyway this wouldn't affect most players.

Changing the sanity cost would be substantially more effective and simpler... but let's not go that far just yet, enjoy what we have for a bit.

[HowlVoid]

17 minutes ago, Quyzbuk said:

That's not interesting, that's tedious. 

I mean... That's Wanda.

A lot of weaknesses are "tedious", like wx-78 losing HP in rain, Wanda's HP going down, Wendy's lower attack, Wormwood's lack of healing through food, Wigfrids only meat diet, etc etc.

They can be circumvented so easily to the point they may as well not exist. 

And it was mostly an example, taking more damage would also work but it's essentially the same thing. You're likely to take damage in combat, hp drain ensures you do. And it goes through defence. If his minions are dumbed down his chances of taking damage increase and it's the same thing. HP drain just happens to not care if the player is skilled or not and is fair in that regard.

In the end, I don't want the duelists nerfed, that's all.

Edited November 5, 2022 by HowlVoid

[edulopes]

2 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

Micromanage them? Wtf are you talking about, i just summon them all and planted the forest close enough to where they could hit all the trees. I mean yeah there’s definitely a good argument for just making the forest bigger as wurt, but if you wanna do that test you have to plant the trees and also compare log amounts to time taken, if maxwell has 50% more logs and is 20% slower he still wins, finally you can also boost him with pigs if you wanna be technical. I think the fastest for maxwell would actually be a forest of baby trees, five chops and a dig for 50% of the 15 chops and a dig for a large tree. But hey im not doing the math, and i’ll admit i dont typically feed more than 10-15 merms for wood harvesting, just feels wasteful to double my amount for a small speed boost

Well If you get 5~ 8 kelp and feed some merms you can get easly 30, click one bit to chop and done you Will and i am certain about that chop fazer ALL Wood faster, and If wurt uses the shovel equal of an servant ir Shadow digger, wurt Wins 

If an tree guard spawns Maxwell pre buff should automátilly lose because he should lose momentum, and his shadows should dor if you spawn Two or more tree guards

 

Really i know about this, i main Maxwell since dont starve solo when he ONLY had sanity regen i know how much is his servants Powers, and really wurt merms Win, and i asure you that

The problema with them you need tô invest time, but If you build 3 local merms in no time you Will get more via merm king trade 

[EthanTheMime]

i would love to see some kind of harvesting debuff because of how accustomed maxwell is to having servants to do work for him. in ziro2k's maxwell rework mod, he outright refused to dig, "as groveling in the dirt is far too beneath him"

also think the idle animation is funny but i feel like his days as a sorry, clumsy magician are behind him. maybe im just misreading the character, though, could be totally alone in this one

[Cheggf]

7 hours ago, BB Marioni said:

I love the new tweaks! I feel These make Maxwell in  good spot. If majority of the playerbase feel like the duelsists are too strong, I'd say bumping up the dmg cap to 30 would be sufficient to make him well balanced as this would make the duelists survive at least 3 hits before dying if they go back to dying in 1 shot, then they would be as useless as they were before.

Other than that I think everything else is good. Most issues that I read are not that big of a deal. like I feel the limited range of the works are intentionally made so you do not summon them on places there are stuff you don't want to be mined/ chopped. If ever he gets more utility shenanigans, that would also be fine. something like his ow dark weapon/ armor or anything. But honestly, as he is currently seems good enough for me. He has a way to farm fuel, he has his own way of combat, and he still has his utility. 

Why do so many people think that the practically free minion which is very helpful against groups of enemies and a variety of other situations is useless if it isn't letting you kill bosses while AFK? Maybe if the cost was increased from 0.2 to something like 3.0 nightmare fuel these op duelists with "only" 3 hits (pretty much invincible against most bosses since most don't do aoe damage) that would make sense, but it would still be super boring because it's still just turning Maxwell into a fourth "watch other things fight for me" character. We already have 3 of those, and 4 characters for killing bosses, and combat is supposed to be a weakness of Maxwell. The minions were infinitely better before where they helped him against groups and do intelligent plays such as against bishops. Brainlessly watching them kill bosses for you is an incredible step down.

Before the rework the only problem with duelists was that they cost a spear. They no longer do, and they also cost 10x less fuel.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Cheggf

[Gabovisk]

There's a lot of feedback in this post. 

I hope developers use a middle ground because new duelist mechanic is too awesome to be too nerfed to get bad or too strong to destroy anything it sees without penalty, but without absurd penalties, but let it be as interesting as playing Wendy and Abigail in battle.

It could be used for bosses and creatures in general, as long as it's not too strong and it's still fun to use duelists to help in battle.

[cybers2001]

2 hours ago, Dwasint said:

as a pure time investment over the span of 2 ingame days wurt produces far more logs than maxwell does even if wurt leaves stumps,  wurt can clearcut an entire forest in like a day and use the second day entirely to dig the stumps which is un-needed.

Chopping trees is only about 50% of the work. Including picking up logs and replanting, I’d say its 50/40/10. The fact that servants can pick up the logs is one of the best features.

10 hours ago, ALCRD said:

I feel like this needs to be changed / tweaked.

Cause this makes the Magic Box / Hat really risky to use in multiplayer. Magic Hat and Box should be the only ones connected not the Shadow Chester too.

“Risky.” Meanwhile other characters just put stuff in regular chests that anyone can access. On that note, does every maxwell get their own pocket dimension, or are they shared?

[Atkvin]

Tying summoning costs to health would just make Maxwell 10x more wary of joining the battle, more than ever they'd just hide after summoning the duelists.

Tying duelist damage and/or health to Maxwell's own equipment at time of summoning could be an interesting idea that scales their power with Maxwell's own progress, but it could quickly cause power creep freely quadrupling a single tentacle spike or 1% thulecite club unless measures are put in place to control this mechanic.

My own ideas to make combat more engaging for Maxwell again would be to frequently aggro bosses/enemies onto Maxwell when his duelists (shadow copies of him) hit them - and giving duelists a higher scaling cost than the servants (without making them instantly too expensive for smaller mobs) by draining Codex durability over time, proportionate per duelist active.

These two changes would encourage Maxwell to still be engaged with battling, needing to defend himself after drawing aggro, and helping to finish a fight quicker or risk losing more Codex durability as the fight draws on.

[Dr. Safety]

I just realized, if a server doesn't have a Maxwell and they upgrade Chester to shadow Chester and then he dies, are the items just lost to the shadow realm until they can upgrade a new Chester?

[Spino43]

Maxwell deserves to be OP.

Great update overall, btw, does anyone know the improved loot table for bunnies/bunnymen/splumonkeys?

[Parusoid]

11 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

it costs 1 nightmare fuel to summon 5 shadows

how does it work exactly? each spell costs 1/5th of a an item? when i summoing them the amount of nightmare fuel in my inventory remain unchanged (and i didnt have free crafting on)