[Game Update] - 529972

[gamehun20]

4 minutes ago, PandoPon said:

Decrease the intervals beetwen duelist swings; Since duelist are now more aggresive, its weird to see them standing and rethinking thier existance between swings. Of course, a little damage decrease in return seems reasonable.

No just no the combination of 5 of these swing fast enough to remove 400 in a few seconds

[Mike23Ua]

15 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

No. Literally not good enough.

maxwell SPAWNS with enough shadows to kill deerclops.

That **** needs a nerf.

Actually you could probably do it twice

Alright then- if you head strong on NEEDING the characters to be hard and challenging, instead of fun and noob friendly (with optional difficulty settings later..) then just change the shadow duelists to only use the equipped melee tool Maxwell is using-

Aka: if the player is a complete noob using spears and grass suits his shadows will spawn with only spears and grass suits, if Maxwell decks himself out with a dark sword and better armor, the duplicates copy- the intent is to make playing the character feel rewarding and more powerful AS the game progresses… But comparing him to all the other reworks: I don’t see much problem with it.

[Bunnyash]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Alright then- if you head strong on NEEDING the characters to be hard and challenging, instead of fun and noob friendly (with optional difficulty settings later..) then just change the shadow duelists to only use the equipped melee tool Maxwell is using-

Aka: if the player is a complete noob using spears and grass suits his shadows will spawn with only spears and grass suits, if Maxwell decks himself out with a dark sword and better armor, the duplicates copy- the intent is to make playing the character feel rewarding and more powerful AS the game progresses… But comparing him to all the other reworks: I don’t see much problem with it.

That's actually a pretty good idea, the shadows are as strong as you make them. Although this should take durability from the armour and weapon, I can see people keeping 1 percent armour around for summons.

[SapoLover]

7 hours ago, SinancoTheBest said:

You'd lose max 15 HP for every duelist, perhaps down to either 15 or 1, letting you only have 4-5 of them. Currently it seems you're under no risk and can win by doing absolutely nothing.

I like the idea, but even if duelists lowered max hp you would still be in no risk by standing far. There should be a motive for Maxwell to join the fight. Maybe shadow duelists' damage taken cap and/or damage could be based on how near is Maxwell from them.

Edited November 5, 2022 by DeadWhereX

[Copyafriend]

12 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Alright then- if you head strong on NEEDING the characters to be hard and challenging, instead of fun and noob friendly (with optional difficulty settings later..) then just change the shadow duelists to only use the equipped melee tool Maxwell is using-

Aka: if the player is a complete noob using spears and grass suits his shadows will spawn with only spears and grass suits, if Maxwell decks himself out with a dark sword and better armor, the duplicates copy- the intent is to make playing the character feel rewarding and more powerful AS the game progresses… But comparing him to all the other reworks: I don’t see much problem with it.

Holy **** thats worse. Yes please give the tanky as **** effectively 750 health against bosses a dark sword

[Parusoid]

4 hours ago, King Maxwell said:

Deerclops: 2 nightmare fuel
Moose/Goose: 1 nightmare fuel
Antlion: 3 nightmare fuel
Bearger: 4 nightmare fuel
Dragonfly: 5 nightmare fuel (probably reducing if I played better and didn't let her rage)

i thought the duelists are free to summon

[DajeKotlyar]

3 hours ago, gamehun20 said:

Not sure if this is intentional or not but shadows can walk on water,

It is, and it was earlier 

[gamehun20]

9 minutes ago, Parusoid said:

i thought the duelists are free to summon

Book recharge probably 

[BB Marioni]

I love the new tweaks! I feel These make Maxwell in  good spot. If majority of the playerbase feel like the duelsists are too strong, I'd say bumping up the dmg cap to 30 would be sufficient to make him well balanced as this would make the duelists survive at least 3 hits before dying if they go back to dying in 1 shot, then they would be as useless as they were before.

Other than that I think everything else is good. Most issues that I read are not that big of a deal. like I feel the limited range of the works are intentionally made so you do not summon them on places there are stuff you don't want to be mined/ chopped. If ever he gets more utility shenanigans, that would also be fine. something like his ow dark weapon/ armor or anything. But honestly, as he is currently seems good enough for me. He has a way to farm fuel, he has his own way of combat, and he still has his utility. 

Edited November 5, 2022 by BB Marioni

[Copyafriend]

13 minutes ago, Parusoid said:

i thought the duelists are free to summon

If you’re being sarcastic: those numbers are so efficient its not even funny. Its less efficient to make darkswords than to summon shadows.

 

if you’re not being sarcastic: it costs 1 nightmare fuel to summon 5 shadows, its practically free imho. And now they’re high damage and extremely tanky 

[NeckbeardMan]

Maybe the Shadow Servants could also Till fields for you if they have nothing else to do?

[Mr Giggio]

Thats reeeally a good  step towards the right direction but we have too much in hands now xD 

 

I mean, what about link em(the duelists) with health instead sanity or make em more costfull, like max 3 duelists.

 

Cuz yeah lil bit OP 

[slurper gaming]

10 hours ago, V2C said:

Changes

• Added sound effects for fueling the Codex Umbra.
• Shadow Servants, Polly Rogers, and the Lazy Forager will no longer try to pick up Lanterns nor Pumpkin Lanterns.
• Shadow Servants will now try to pick up nearby items before walking around their work radius.
• Shadow Servants will now help pick things like grass, twigs, and berry bushes.
• Shadow Duelists changes:
  • Phases out temporarily when hit, similar to other Shadow Creatures.
  • Damage taken per hit is now capped, improving survivability.
  • Removed passive health regeneration.
  • Added a secondary attack where they dash forward to perform a stronger lunging strike.
  • Removed kiting behaviour to make them more aggressive as an area targeted command spell.
• Further improved loot tables for Rabbits, Bunnymen, and Splumonkeys transformed by Shadow Sneak.
• Increased the intensity for an AMD-specific issue with the minimap to test banding issues.

Bug Fixes

• Fixed a crash sometimes when using Shadow Sneak in the Caves.
• Fixed a Shadow Servant case where they ignore some items to pick up.
• Fixed missing Magician’s Chest minimap icon.
• Fixed Shadow Duelists not relaxing if a player hits them while PvP is off.

Notes for modders

• The handling for shadow_container has been refactored.

 

View full update

very good but i would like a way to stop the magic hat from linking to other things  same for chester

[King Maxwell]

I believe that few people have tested against hordes of mobs after being surprised at how good they are against bosses now, effectively duelists are considerably weaker against groups of mobs than before
the damage cap is considerably less efficient than healing against mobs as the damage is barely reduced.
I believe that both klei and the players should choose if they want the duelists more focused on fighting mobs or bosses because making both functional does not seem to me to be an alternative other than being op or useless.
Spawnable shadows seem to me to be better for dealing with mobs although I would still like a faster codex reading animation as it is awkward to create new duelists while fighting alongside them.
Against bosses more expensive and limited shadows seem better but I find it much more difficult to balance not to get the current gameplay that maxwell just watches his shadows do the job or just be expensive for the little they add to go back to not being used, besides which goes against the current idea of the rework.

Honestly, I don't think maxwell needs a combat advantage against bosses, it's not like every character needs one is it?

[edulopes]

well, i think his duellists are finally something you can use about his kit, every caracters have theyr strengths, maxwell lost his divine godnes farm, now he have stronger puppets, wanda can tp and revive and deal wolfgang damage with low investment, wolfgang just train, wurt with like... 40 days is better than him in every single way, the only thing he got more than her's is the shovel, woodie is an jack of all trades, so you cant ask him to be exactly better than maxwell, but with honey he can be on par because tree guards dont spawn making a faster farm orveall, but wurty is better than both, and dont tell oh maxwell has te top hat, that could be added to any caracter, this isnt an feature excluse if you play him

19 minutes ago, King Maxwell said:

I believe that few people have tested against hordes of mobs after being surprised at how good they are against bosses now, effectively duelists are considerably weaker against groups of mobs than before
the damage cap is considerably less efficient than healing against mobs as the damage is barely reduced.
I believe that both klei and the players should choose if they want the duelists more focused on fighting mobs or bosses because making both functional does not seem to me to be an alternative other than being op or useless.
Spawnable shadows seem to me to be better for dealing with mobs although I would still like a faster codex reading animation as it is awkward to create new duelists while fighting alongside them.
Against bosses more expensive and limited shadows seem better but I find it much more difficult to balance not to get the current gameplay that maxwell just watches his shadows do the job or just be expensive for the little they add to go back to not being used, besides which goes against the current idea of the rework.

Honestly, I don't think maxwell needs a combat advantage against bosses, it's not like every character needs one is it?

i think he's finally in a deserved spot, dont need more or less as i said above there are serval caracters, not even counting wigfrid that does the job better, figthing, maxwell is just an jack of all trades master of none in this rework, now that they finally made the shadows useful i think it is fair enough to let as it is, because heck, with the apropiated preparations you can easly surpass all those maxwell feats aside from the shadow sneak and shadow walls

3 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

Dude.

maxwells shadows can literally tank bearger. “On par” he blows the rest out of the water with his easily spammable moderate to high damage 20% of their health max damage taken small hoard of easily replaced fighters.

 

i mean short of deerclops, nothing can kill the equivalent of 1.5 nightmare fuel, and deerclops cant even kill a second wave, of which you can have as many as you want

well you see wanda wolfgang wifrid woodie, all of those can do deerclops with minimal investment, heck woodie with just 1 moose can kill him, wigfrid with starting gear, wolf and wanda need a little more time to get some ham bat for wolf ou shadow sword or alarming clock, i think the point is maxwell now can put a figth because 75 health is problematic because you need more helmets, more security and take less hits with all those caracters i said, i am not even counting an heavy investment wurt neither wickerbottom grumble bees, look around my bro are you blind? or made yourself?
that is i can even tell wortox healing and TP so i think his shadows are good now as other caracters

[YouKnowWho]

I'm a fan of the idea of increasing the durability cost for each duelist to something like 10 or 15%. That, or decreasing the summoning range so you can't as easily just spur on fights from afar.

[SeriousSteel]

When I think of a duelist, I think of a character who is an expert at fighting one on one, shadow duelists being good versus bosses or against single enemies makes sense by name alone, the only thing that I would if there were balancing issues is limit the number to 3 and increase their overall health so they can take 1 or 2 more hits before dying, there is some merit to the idea of giving them a tiny bit of aoe so they can at least hit 1 more enemy.

I think being able to have 6 on the field kinda cheapens the unit since it is meant to be fighting specialist, I think they should take 2 slots while servants take 1 slot of the 6 slots but their power should be increased accordingly, no damage increases, just general survivability so they fit the theme better.

[POOH_LY]

The changes are really interesting. Thanks Klei! I am really surprised how good they are against with Deerclops from my testing. However, a lot of people suggest that they become too powerful. Also, since they lost their healing, they are now less effective against other mobs. My suggestion is that perhaps you could lower the cap of the duelists, but give them small regen (since they already have their shields.), and revert them back to permanent followers so that they are more useful against normal mobs, and less useful against bosses. The cost to summon them needs to be increased as well if they are permanent.

[Copyafriend]

16 minutes ago, edulopes said:

well, i think his duellists are finally something you can use about his kit, every caracters have theyr strengths, maxwell lost his divine godnes farm, now he have stronger puppets, wanda can tp and revive and deal wolfgang damage with low investment, wolfgang just train, wurt with like... 40 days is better than him in every single way, the only thing he got more than her's is the shovel, woodie is an jack of all trades, so you cant ask him to be exactly better than maxwell, but with honey he can be on par because tree guards dont spawn making a faster farm orveall, but wurty is better than both, and dont tell oh maxwell has te top hat, that could be added to any caracter, this isnt an feature excluse if you play him

i think he's finally in a deserved spot, dont need more or less as i said above there are serval caracters, not even counting wigfrid that does the job better, figthing, maxwell is just an jack of all trades master of none in this rework, now that they finally made the shadows useful i think it is fair enough to let as it is, because heck, with the apropiated preparations you can easly surpass all those maxwell feats aside from the shadow sneak and shadow walls

well you see wanda wolfgang wifrid woodie, all of those can do deerclops with minimal investment, heck woodie with just 1 moose can kill him, wigfrid with starting gear, wolf and wanda need a little more time to get some ham bat for wolf ou shadow sword or alarming clock, i think the point is maxwell now can put a figth because 75 health is problematic because you need more helmets, more security and take less hits with all those caracters i said, i am not even counting an heavy investment wurt neither wickerbottom grumble bees, look around my bro are you blind? or made yourself?
that is i can even tell wortox healing and TP so i think his shadows are good now as other caracters

Dude:

maxwell outperforms EVERYONE by a LOT in gathering. He can even gather grass twigs and berries with his summons now. 
 

his duelists are STILL significant against hoards, not being as good as abigail against hoards isnt a good measure, they’re still really strong, just not ABIGAIL strong. 
 

And my point wasnt that he can do it day 1 haha thats really op, my point is that day 1 he can summon something that can do the fight for him, with less resource costs than makinf weapons and fightjng the boss himself. 
 

woodie gets natural armor and becomes pretty strong: he cant heal mid fight without running and coming back, also he cant kite well. deerclops is fine, bearger isnt: maxwells SHADOWS can tank bearger. 
 

To do relevant damage wanda must be effectively 20 health points from death. And also the one fighting. So three good hits and shes dead. Also she needs to make her own unique ancient craft weapon to be really good.

wigfrid starts with a GOOD (not great) helmet and a okay (not even good) weapon. She cant tank deerclops and live with starter gear (im pretty sure) plus she only has 25% damage boost.

wolfgang is entirely combat focused, and still needs an armor and weapon to tank deerclops. A football helmet and hambat should do, but he is not zero prep. 

Wickerbottoms bees are high in number but VERY fragile. They’re frozen on the first hit dead on the second

But maxwell?

without even getting involved in the fight at all, can spend 2! Nightmare fuel, and kill deerclops. 

while also having the best gathering in the game, and spells that can be cast more freely than wickerbottom.

[edulopes]

1 minute ago, Copyafriend said:

Dude:

maxwell outperforms EVERYONE by a LOT in gathering. He can even gather grass twigs and berries with his summons now. 
 

his duelists are STILL significant against hoards, not being as good as abigail against hoards isnt a good measure, they’re still really strong, just not ABIGAIL strong. 
 

And my point wasnt that he can do it day 1 haha thats really op, my point is that day 1 he can summon something that can do the fight for him, with less resource costs than makinf weapons and fightjng the boss himself. 
 

woodie gets natural armor and becomes pretty strong: he cant heal mid fight without running and coming back, also he cant kite well. deerclops is fine, bearger isnt: maxwells SHADOWS can tank bearger. 
 

To do relevant damage wanda must be effectively 20 health points from death. And also the one fighting. So three good hits and shes dead. Also she needs to make her own unique ancient craft weapon to be really good.*
 

wigfrid starts with a GOOD (not great) helmet and a okay (not even good) weapon. She cant tank deerclops and live with starter gear (im pretty sure) plus she only has 25% damage boost.

wolfgang is entirely combat focused, and still needs an armor and weapon to tank deerclops. A football helmet and hambat should do, but he is not zero prep. 

Wickerbottoms bees are high in number but VERY fragile. They’re frozen on the first hit dead on the second

But maxwell?

without even getting involved in the fight at all, can spend 2! Nightmare fuel, and kill deerclops. 

while also having the best gathering in the game, and spells that can be cast more freely than wickerbottom.

cant out perform wurt and thats an fact, woodie can match him with honey, and yeah trully picking things up ok is unique to him, wigfrid can figth day one too, and all figthing caracters can too, only wanda you really need at least 5 days of investment

who kills bearger? best to run him down in trees the more profitable way

woodie can heal midfigth with jelly beans

* to be most efficient and you can even use shadow armor, that make you able to tank serval boss hits and you can use dark swords and tank if you are in a hurry

i understand your telling that bee's are bad for the figth against deerclops, but clops is an EASY boss, and bees besides bee queen, deerclops, and klaus (bees can kill the deers (same as duellists but i wont enter in this real because i can manipulate them to figth klaus)) bees figthing are pretty good

"while also having the best gathering" you've never played wurt have you? wurt is fun as heck and with 2 merm houses you can make serval in an spam of days, my GF made 30 war merm houses in 20 days alone, and in her first (30 hours aproximatelly) of playing the game for the first time so idk if you have the info you can do all maxwell do but better or equal in another way BESIDES PICK THINGS ON THE GROUND
 

and if you want to be certain that wig can solo it, just add the healing book and an ham bat, because think if clops spawn's it isnt on day 1 it is on day 21 at LEAST ( normally day 30) so everyone would have an preparation till then...

[Daniel14676]

I love the changes to the servants, it's awesome! As for the duelists I love how they move now, it's soo cool. Though I think they are a bit good at killing bosses, the sweet spot would be helpful but not easily soloing.

• Hum here are some spitballed ideas (ie: just off the top of my head and without too much thought):
• Make there dash attack have a minor AOE and make them 2 or 3 hits from bosses (instead of 5). So perhaps like 55ish damage max instead 15, but give them back some regeneration?
• I could also see making them twice as expensive (both sanity cap and nightmare fuel), and just giving them a minor AOE
• Alternatively, give minor AOE, but having them out causes problems for Maxwell. (pick one)
  • Perhaps when they die, summon a nightmare and take some of Maxwell's sanity (or maybe they just spawn aggressive to Maxwell like nightmare cycle spawns)
  • Sanity drain while on the field
  • Slow his movement speed (with all out, down to say maybe 60%ish)
  • They also takes max hp

Also, you could make the duelist follow Maxwell. It would mean he has to remain relatively close to the fight or they would just return back to him. With workers it's nice for more control, but maybe that isn't what you want with duelists. Just a thought.

You could add some sort of upgrade mechanic, so out of the gate they aren't so powerful.

With shadow sneak, it would be nice if it had a little more utility, if I'm basing away from bunny, bunnymen, or Splumonkeys, then it's less useful. (note: I haven't tested loot tables, so no comment on those.) Making evil flowers would be cool (though maybe putting a cap to how many could be transformed at once, idk). As an idea, perhaps you could cast it on a shadow creature to make them stronger but drop more loot.

Anyways, here are some ideas, hopefully they spark some inspiration. As you can tell, I think the duelists should have some minor AOE on the dash but get debuffed, but well I haven't tested this hotfix yet, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

(sidenote: I love these betas, you guys can just make/test changes without worry about balanced)

Edited November 5, 2022 by Daniel14676

[Copyafriend]

3 minutes ago, edulopes said:

cant out perform wurt and thats an fact, woodie can match him with honey, and yeah trully picking things up ok is unique to him, wigfrid can figth day one too, and all figthing caracters can too, only wanda you really need at least 5 days of investment

who kills bearger? best to run him down in trees the more profitable way

woodie can heal midfigth with jelly beans

* to be most efficient and you can even use shadow armor, that make you able to tank serval boss hits and you can use dark swords and tank if you are in a hurry

i understand your telling that bee's are bad for the figth against deerclops, but clops is an EASY boss, and bees besides bee queen, deerclops, and klaus (bees can kill the deers (same as duellists but i wont enter in this real because i can manipulate them to figth klaus)) bees figthing are pretty good

"while also having the best gathering" you've never played wurt have you? wurt is fun as heck and with 2 merm houses you can make serval in an spam of days, my GF made 30 war merm houses in 20 days alone, and in her first (30 hours aproximatelly) of playing the game for the first time so idk if you have the info you can do all maxwell do but better or equal in another way BESIDES PICK THINGS ON THE GROUND
 

He can, and does. I did a side by side comparison with him and wurt (with my girlfriend funnily enough) and wurt couldn’t gather everything nearly as fast. 
 

unless you’re doing a pure “who cuts down trees the fastest” wurt loses hard. She still has to shovel and gather herself, maxwell can literally stand there and still win the race. And if you’re doing a pure “who cuts down trees the fastest” race, bearger is the one who wins. 
 

Bearger was used as a benchmark for the step up from deerclops, nothing more. some people whine that deerclops is too easy for comparison so i mentioned bearger is still doable.

Yeah, woodie can heal mid transformation with a RAID BOSS EXCLUSIVE healing item. If you’ve killed bee queen you’ve got helmets and darkswords and are doing more damage than moose while tanking better too. Moose is an early midgame transformation. 

bees suck against any boss with aoe, maxwells shadows still hold up. Because even deerclops does a whopping 150 damage a hit to the whole group, but only 15 to maxwells shadows. Also it costs like 8 casts of the book that has 3 uses (or have 4 of the book and dont wait) and costs 264 sanity, summoning a shadow while at low health (maxwell can also have multiple books and instead of refueling just switching books) 

i will admit though i wouldnt bring the shadows to klaus, but hey one boss out of like 20 isnt so bad. 

[edulopes]

2 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

He can, and does. I did a side by side comparison with him and wurt (with my girlfriend funnily enough) and wurt couldn’t gather everything nearly as fast. 
 

unless you’re doing a pure “who cuts down trees the fastest” wurt loses hard. She still has to shovel and gather herself, maxwell can literally stand there and still win the race. And if you’re doing a pure “who cuts down trees the fastest” race, bearger is the one who wins. 
 

Bearger was used as a benchmark for the step up from deerclops, nothing more. some people whine that deerclops is too easy for comparison so i mentioned bearger is still doable.

Yeah, woodie can heal mid transformation with a RAID BOSS EXCLUSIVE healing item. If you’ve killed bee queen you’ve got helmets and darkswords and are doing more damage than moose while tanking better too. Moose is an early midgame transformation. 

bees suck against any boss with aoe, maxwells shadows still hold up. Because even deerclops does a whopping 150 damage a hit to the whole group, but only 15 to maxwells shadows. Also it costs like 8 casts of the book that has 3 uses (or have 4 of the book and dont wait) and costs 264 sanity, summoning a shadow while at low health (maxwell can also have multiple books and instead of refueling just switching books) 

i will admit though i wouldnt bring the shadows to klaus, but hey one boss out of like 20 isnt so bad. 

Strange... but how many merms did you use? personally my minmal is 30 Loyal merms and you use a shovel, because is the setup my GF uses to kill bosses so she goes to pre planted all close forests and daam she rip me off all the time pre and post rework maxwell

yeah bearger is an boss that i really dont kill because he got best uses, i would call for dragonfly for an best boss because she has more life and can count certain caracters can get her down, and alas i dont count yet the prision cheese of her because i think it will get fixed that is wrong in my eyes

as i say some people like the moose, i dont blame them, daam pal i waited more than 6 years to use duellists haha so in my eyes now that they look like something useful, and more than that good i think they should mantain this power because they are sligtly worse for mobbing ( compared to pre buff " pre rework they didnt exist") and best for bosses that is the rigth way, because maxwell in my eyes need to handle at least tree guards, because now you can spawn 3 workers and wait, and spawn the rest of the gang, 
pre rework maxwell if you had somone to kill the guards he is very good, the problem i see is, maxwell needs to be insane to get to max potencial, maxwell can only have 5 clones , if you are suposing early game, he have beem gutted to the ground because of not being able to destroy all trees and rocks day one as today standard, so as i said the duellists are fine, his power was shiftted

and the bees are just an bonus, wicker has too many things going for her, that maxwell dosent, for an example
 

tree guards slow down maxwell considerably or even stop his work, dont forget that after 30 days jesus they spawn as crazy

 

[Cloakingsumo198]

How is this gonna affect the pvp economy.

[Daniel14676]

41 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

i will admit though i wouldnt bring the shadows to klaus, but hey one boss out of like 20 isnt so bad. 

Nope, just tested it. And while you have to be careful to make sure the duelists are targeting klaus and not the deer, which you can do by spawning them on top of him. And also be careful of the phase 2 transformation because they will de-aggro from klaus to the deer again. You can 100% kill him with just duelists. I wasn't keeping track of nightmare fuel, but it took 4-5ish I think?

So it's harder, but still pretty straightforward/cheep.

No idea about the bigger bosses (ie: fuel, moon, crab, toad, bee, etc)

Edited November 5, 2022 by Daniel14676