Concerns on Wickerbottoms world changing effects

[Wurtstool]

I find that the two books "Rain Rituals" and "Lunar Grimoire" may be pushing boundaries on what a character specific crafts can do. Both changes the state of the world globally and everyone will be affected by their use no matter what. Normally effects like this are relegated to end game questlines such as the moon storms but Wicker can easily get access to these effect relatively early. What concerns me is that these not only effects you yourself but everyone on the server, both for the greater good or greater evil. For example the "Rain Rituals" book you can either invalidate spring for ALL players on the server or make their lives miserable for all of autumn. And for the "Lunar Grimoire" you can give the middle finger to Charlie each night for all players and also hold people hostage from doing shadow pieces (Also making Woddie's life hell). I think people underestimate how powerful global effects are and giving these powers to a specific character who can access them with relative ease may harm the flow of other's players gameplay experience and their plans. It's like giving Wickerbottom players admin commands with actually being admin. What do people think about giving global effects tied to a specific character and is it good for game balance?

[Lord Cafe]

I agree, i'm wicker and woodie main and i can already imagine thoose books being used to troll people, i think a basic solution would be on public serves implement a option to vote when wicker can do this  things like "Wicker player is going to use x book, do all players agree? [ X ] Yes [   ] No"

It's the most basic thing that can be made without nerfing her new powers... since locking the time between the uses would do nothing beside drags the gameplay but again, people could literraly vote note to troll wicker, i don't know how they gonna deal with this...

[Mysterious box]

Yea while I am more concerned with the moon book I can see how the rain book can make pubs a miserable experience I mean I've seen tons of pub servers destoryed by just the rain trap and giving a character control of these factors could raise the difficulty of the early game far higher than anything added before it and could potentially turn off alot of new players.

[Anthony_L3hr]

Maybe make the Lunar Grimoire cost 2 papyrus and a purple moonlens or something.

[ShadowDuelist]

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Yea while I am more concerned with the moon book I can see how the rain book can make pubs a miserable experience I mean I've seen tons of pub servers destoryed by just the rain trap and giving a character control of these factors could raise the difficulty of the early game far higher than anything added before it and could potentially turn off alot of new players.

I think we should wait and see. TBH most wickerbottom players just die to shenanigans way before they can make anything meaningful.

The full moons every night and woodie's nightmare can be a concern, since it is a pretty cheap book to make, but it has been a matter of debate since the moonstorm thing started and it's more of a Woodie problem that needs fixing, not Wickerbottom's.

[Cheggf]

Wickerbottom can tentacle the base (or spawn, or roads, or anything else), kill people with end is nigh, and do anything else that everyone can do like make people unable to move, spawn twins of terror on random players every night, break whatever they want, etc. I don't think making people a little wet is this big problem. 

[cybers2001]

Yeah... I had a wicker straight up tentacle my kitchen once. I am not afraid of her new books at all. The rain book is actually something in line with what more experienced players have been requesting for some time, since Shipwrecked has had the rain pipes. It is especially powerful during summer to protect from smoldering, spring to stop frog rains, and overall in preparation for boss fights using voltgoat jelly.

[Mysterious box]

57 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I think we should wait and see. TBH most wickerbottom players just die to shenanigans way before they can make anything meaningful.

The full moons every night and woodie's nightmare can be a concern, since it is a pretty cheap book to make, but it has been a matter of debate since the moonstorm thing started and it's more of a Woodie problem that needs fixing, not Wickerbottom's.

Honestly the more I think about this the more I'm thinking this is a major issue now the rain book effects the entire server and that means everyone's play experience will be completely dictated by 1 person or or afew people there this probably shouldn't be a thing as I feel it'll bring far more harm than good.

As for the moon storm the difference is that it's locked behind such a long process that the majority of players will never have to deal with it's consequences even if it's not a good experience for some.

57 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Wickerbottom can tentacle the base (or spawn, or roads, or anything else), kill people with end is nigh, and do anything else that everyone can do like make people unable to move, spawn twins of terror on random players every night, break whatever they want, etc. I don't think making people a little wet is this big problem. 

Being wet is a bigger issue for less experienced players and unlike tentacles this covers an entire server that is a major difference. Personally I feel like a better compromise is just to make the book turn all mobs in the area wet.

[Mike23Ua]

I want a Casting Range that only impacts an immediate area around Wickerbottoms current location, this would solve a lot of potential world abuse problems with rain & moon books- but how hard would that be to program into the game may not be worth the time or effort to change?

[lakhnish]

The rain book is fine since you can read the book to turn the rain off.

The devs finally added a way to make rain after saying they would and I'm so happy it's finally here!

[QuartzBeam]

The rain book is not that bad, except for the fact that a rain item should not be character-exclusive. Remember, the primary reason people have been asking for a rain item is so they can cast Wildfires Begone on their megabases without "cheating" via the world settings. And Klei's response was to basically go "if you want your megabases not to catch fire, play Wickerbottom".

 

Also, the Lunar Grimoire kinda poops all over Return of Them. The game spent 3 years on a long and arduous questline that took us to every corner of the Constant  so we could awaken an eldritch deity to 'earn' the ability to change the moon cycle, and even once we got to that point it was still pretty darn hard to do. And now in comes the new and improved Wickerbottom, bulldozing straight through that entire questline with "lol I can do it by day 3, just give me some moonrock nuggets".

[Mike23Ua]

21 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

The rain book is fine since you can read the book to turn the rain off.

The devs finally added a way to make rain after saying they would and I'm so happy it's finally here!

The problem is the griefing potential these books have since they impact the entire game world..

As much as you guys HATE me referencing other games… other games get my point across directly to other Gamers- so I’m going to keep doing it.

In Gears of War when you call down the Hammer of Dawn it starts in one area your casting it in and you can move the Hammer around across your screen while it’s active to target other things.

Wickerbottom being able to effect the entire server would be like if you could cause the entire sky in Gears of War to rain down the Hammer of Dawn.

Wicker needs this casters circle.. AND I can prove why with actual LORE-

Shes not casting a spell on the entire constant, only that one circular area above that mountain top.

[dois raios]

i remember people asking to wx to have an actual dowside in rain, and some people said that woodie was fine when i asked about moon storm event, now let wicker shine pls.

[Parusoid]

2 hours ago, Wurtstool said:

I find that the two books "Rain Rituals" and "Lunar Grimoire" may be pushing boundaries on what a character specific crafts can do. Both changes the state of the world globally and everyone will be affected by their use no matter what. Normally effects like this are relegated to end game questlines such as the moon storms but Wicker can easily get access to these effect relatively early. What concerns me is that these not only effects you yourself but everyone on the server, both for the greater good or greater evil. For example the "Rain Rituals" book you can either invalidate spring for ALL players on the server or make their lives miserable for all of autumn. And for the "Lunar Grimoire" you can give the middle finger to Charlie each night for all players and also hold people hostage from doing shadow pieces (Also making Woddie's life hell). I think people underestimate how powerful global effects are and giving these powers to a specific character who can access them with relative ease may harm the flow of other's players gameplay experience and their plans. It's like giving Wickerbottom players admin commands with actually being admin. What do people think about giving global effects tied to a specific character and is it good for game balance?

Everyone can troll, and none of the trolls are picking wickerbottom, they pick willow for free torch and set your base on fire

Anyone can troll with anything, its not the book's fault, its the player's

[Notecja]

7 minutes ago, Parusoid said:

Anyone can troll with anything, its not the book's fault, its the player's

This ^
You can spawn as Webber to plant spoders in some stupid place
You can pick Willow to burn things just now
Wicker always had trolling potencial, but she is more expensive (you need to put minimal effort in gathering)
As Wurt you can build some merms around so player will be annoyed by them... (even more expensive)
As any character you can do some stupid things, like gunpowder....

[Mike23Ua]

25 minutes ago, Notecja said:

This ^
You can spawn as Webber to plant spoders in some stupid place
You can pick Willow to burn things just now
Wicker always had trolling potencial, but she is more expensive (you need to put minimal effort in gathering)
As Wurt you can build some merms around so player will be annoyed by them... (even more expensive)
As any character you can do some stupid things, like gunpowder....

You can do all those things if your on screen and in the immediate area of those things.. Wickers books however would allow me to effectively paddle a boat to the corner of the map and spam them effecting the entire server- this is a whole new level of greifing..

And personally I think it’s a BAD IDEA to give characters any kind of tool that can effect the entire game world (such as that rain staff you all want..) this is especially true now that WX78 takes serious damage from rain a “Casting Area” would make these items less destructive to a whole server of players.. but rather Klei realizes it or not:

Average Wickerbottom Player doing her own thing minding her own business- I’m just going to water my crops so I’ll make it rain..

The WX78 out on a Boat headed somewhere “Error 01001010 Water Damage Detected”

Now let’s flip the roles.. That same Wicker is now out on her own extended boating adventure and forgot to bring any type of light source restoring fuels, but wait she can just make the moon cycle happen and ignore night! “Spams this across multiple days of sailing trip”

Meanwhile the 2 Woodies trying to gather wood or fight a boss are now becoming Ben 10 with a glitched Omnitrix watch stuck to his wrist.

The examples I just provided are of a Wickerbottom who is doing her own thing helping herself with her powers whom may have never played as Woodie OR WX78 and has no idea that what she is doing is greifing the crap out of those other players unintentionally.

And on Xbox Live: Congratulations Wicker you just got reported and banned from playing online games for a few weeks because rather you knew it or not you were directly hindering someone else’s enjoyment of the game they paid for

(yes this is a thing and yes you can be reported for it.. Hence why GTA V has an actual bad sports lobby if you continuously grief a player.)

Yes you can grief as ANY character in DST with a Hammer or a Torch- but this… this could be you just doing your own thing using your characters perks to enjoy your character and then- WHAM your hit with an Xbox Live Report (or two) for unknowingly causing widespread harm to other players.

I have actually been banned on Xbox Live for spamming the End is Nigh… (I was new and I just thought it was so cool to be able to conjure lightning through reading a book) what I was unaware of at that time however.. was I was causing actual physical sickness to other players.

All of this could be fixed if Wicker had a circle on the ground similar to Wortox’s soul hops on Xbox that can be cast in an area and moved about on screen during the cast/spell duration around her without causing it to happen to the entire server.

[Notecja]

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

You can do all those things if your on screen and in the immediate area of those things.. Wickers books however would allow me to effectively paddle a boat to the corner of the map and spam them effecting the entire server- this is a whole new level of greifing..

if you grief, then don't really need to put so much effort. I think those are specific kind of player, who prefer little effort and fast effects. Already they can do all possible griefing with other characters and in easier, cheaper ways.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Parusoid said:

Everyone can troll, and none of the trolls are picking wickerbottom, they pick willow for free torch and set your base on fire

Anyone can troll with anything, its not the book's fault, its the player's

You haven't seen enough griefers then wickerbottom is a very popular griefer choice because people are more likely to tell a wickerbottom their base location.

31 minutes ago, Notecja said:

if you grief, then don't really need to put so much effort. I think those are specific kind of player, who prefer little effort and fast effects. Already they can do all possible griefing with other characters and in easier, cheaper ways.

There are all kinds of griefers many are more dedicated than you give them credit for but the thing is people using it my not always be intentionally griefing and even then this is a form of it you cannot escape from only adapt to sure there's a off button but said person may legitimately want to use it not intentionally to others detriment but specifically for their benfit.

38 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And on Xbox Live: Congratulations Wicker you just got reported and banned from playing online games for a few weeks because rather you knew it or not you were directly hindering someone else’s enjoyment of the game they paid for

While not my exact thoughts this is similar to what made me do a face turn on thinking the rain book was ok.

1 hour ago, Notecja said:

This ^
You can spawn as Webber to plant spoders in some stupid place
You can pick Willow to burn things just now
Wicker always had trolling potencial, but she is more expensive (you need to put minimal effort in gathering)
As Wurt you can build some merms around so player will be annoyed by them... (even more expensive)
As any character you can do some stupid things, like gunpowder....

Key difference is this effects the world those effect specific spots in the world.

1 hour ago, QuartzBeam said:

The rain book is not that bad, except for the fact that a rain item should not be character-exclusive. Remember, the primary reason people have been asking for a rain item is so they can cast Wildfires Begone on their megabases without "cheating" via the world settings. And Klei's response was to basically go "if you want your megabases not to catch fire, play Wickerbottom".

Tbf we still have flingos, watering cans. Water balloons, big trees, and the oasis to fight wild fires if you feel altering the setting is cheating which I don't really feel is the case.

1 hour ago, lakhnish said:

The rain book is fine since you can read the book to turn the rain off.

Key thing is Wickerbottom/Maxwell can read to turn it off.

[Wurtstool]

I feel that this thread is veering more towards the discussion of the griefing potential of Wicker's new books rather than if she should have access to global wide effects. I get that the potential griefing is there and in that sense any character can grief as well as Wicker if they wanted to and that's all depends on the player rather than character. 

I more wanted to ask the question if it is okay for one character (aka Wicker) have access to abilities that alter the world itself and have noticeable effects on ALL players no matter where they are. This in turn makes it so that EVERYONE have to deal with Wickerbottoms shenanigans even if you wanted to ignore her. I know this game focuses on co-op but there is no character released up till this patch that forces another character/player to deal with their advantages/disadvantages. For example you can choose to interact with Warlys new food to buff yourself in combat but you cannot choose to NOT interact with Wickerbottom calling down rain, you just have to deal with it. Wickerbottem now is the only character you have to interact with because someone picked her.

Yes there are other ways that characters can change the state of the world such as picking up a fire/ice staff trap or plugging in the final moon alter piece but these actions are available to anyone and is more so coming from the world itself rather than a character. It makes it so that everyone stands on even ground when it comes to this stuff. This is why I don't see issue of a telelocator staff making it rain but I do see issue with Wikerbottoms books. In addition you are able to controls these events by waiting out he rain for the fire/ice staff trap (there's only so many of these traps per world) and killing celestial champion to stop the full moons, with wickers case she has all the control and you cannot do anything about it.

I think this causes me frustration due to a precepted "loss of control".

[zaptrap]

3 hours ago, QuartzBeam said:

The rain book is not that bad, except for the fact that a rain item should not be character-exclusive

Telelocator staves cause rain, and aren't character exclusive. I've used it as wormwood to water my plants during the summer. Sure, maybe you won't be using telelocator staves on your first summer, but later on, purple gems become pretty abundant.

[Capybara007]

Just now, zaptrap said:

Telelocator staves cause rain, and aren't character exclusive. I've used it as wormwood to water my plants during the summer. Sure, maybe you won't be using telelocator staves on your first summer, but later on, purple gems become pretty abundant.

its not about the purple gems is about the living logs, the extremely low durability of the staffs and the fact that they drain over 30 sanity

people asked for a way to control weather, some suggested some ck drop, instead it gets locked for a character, that is not fun

[chaosmonkey]

3 hours ago, QuartzBeam said:

The rain book is not that bad, except for the fact that a rain item should not be character-exclusive. Remember, the primary reason people have been asking for a rain item is so they can cast Wildfires Begone on their megabases without "cheating" via the world settings. And Klei's response was to basically go "if you want your megabases not to catch fire, play Wickerbottom".

There's still room for a rain caller that any survivor could use perhaps tied to some boss loot. Wickerbottom having this ability is a great start.

[QuartzBeam]

40 minutes ago, zaptrap said:

Telelocator staves cause rain, and aren't character exclusive. I've used it as wormwood to water my plants during the summer. Sure, maybe you won't be using telelocator staves on your first summer, but later on, purple gems become pretty abundant.

Telelocator staves add 500 moisture to the atmosphere and the amount of atmospheric moisture during summer is somewhere in the high quadruple digits, if not straight up in the pentuple digit range. And rains are fairly short in summer.

Hell, if I remember correctly using the telelocator to extend the rain adds like 30 seconds to the timer. That's 150 seconds AKA 31% of a day per staff. So it would take 3 staves per day.

Now maybe this is just me, but, with all the above in mind, the idea of creating and maintaining an 11-day rain with the telelocator staff sounds absolutely ridiculous.

[Cheggf]

Why is Wilson making rain good but Wickerbottom making rain bad? 

[Mike23Ua]

44 minutes ago, chaosmonkey said:

There's still room for a rain caller that any survivor could use perhaps tied to some boss loot. Wickerbottom having this ability is a great start.

I don’t think anyone being able to cause server wide changes is a good feature to have in a multiplayer game unless they’re the host of said world and have such settings enabled in world settings- Why does Wickers books need to effect the entire server and not just the field of view or a few screens over from her field of view? Like what positive effect can that have on the game? 
 

DST has several MODES to choose from- Everything goes all out Chaos, Working Together in Coop Play, or just doing your own thing in a online server with other players and if what your wanting to do lines up with what someone else is wanting to do great you can work together! (Or not) otherwise your playing single player with the occasional help of others whom you wander across.

I want to discuss the doing your own thing part of what makes Wickers books so bad, A Wickerbottom who just wanted to Water her Crops or prevent herself from dying to Darkness Can cause WX78 & Woodies lives to be a living hell.

She even has a book to cause earthquakes in caves.. Which now makes me wish Winona got more love by getting an Earthquake Extractor Gadget which would catch falling objects and prevent them from cracking her in the head.

Wickers books should only effect the immediate area around the Wicker player.. not the whole server.

8 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Why is Wilson making rain good but Wickerbottom making rain bad? 

Wilson shouldn’t be able to cause server wide rainfalls either.. what the game needs is a casters circle or tile radius so it only happens near the player who cast it.