Since they patched Ancient Guardian cheese, do you think they should fix other bosses cheese?

[nimzowitsch10]

seems there are way more abusive cheese like putting 50 shadow knights on a boat and burning it to get a bunch of resources or putting a lureplant down and smacking fuelweaver in the void. Curious to hear what you guys think

[Well-met]

yes but it's easier than you think

a whole lot of it is about the walls and the weaver bones so you don't even need to change the bosses themselves.

[dubious little]

I voted no and it seems like I can't change my answer, but after thinking about it I would actually AS LONG as the boss fight itself is changed too to fit. Y'know basically just do what they did with Ancient Guardian.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

i prefer if they focus their time on fixing things and giving new cool stuff than limiting how others play. If someone dont enjoy boss fights, removing the cheese wont make them enjoying it

AG was different because they reworked the fight for being so boring to the point of me being tempted to cheese him and anyways they didnt remove the "pillar cheese" just reworked it into something fun like uncompromising mod did

[SinancoTheBest]

No, what they did with Ancient Guardian was not fixing a cheese but rather modifying an extremely boring, untriumphant boss fight. There will always be methods for people to cheat the mosses and in fact some methods like dragonfly walls or winona catapults feel more like the intended way to fight the bosses using the items the game gives rather than cheating. As such, I'm all for Klei updating preexisting bosses, giving them new moves or behavior to make them more interesting. But the focus shouldn't be "just preventing existing popular methods" if they very well involve players using the tools in the game.

[Hornete]

My opinion will always be "fix the cheese if the feature is made to be fair/fun"

This is a principle that Klei themselves seems to go on a lot of the time too. The infinite lantern exploit in DS? Fixed when we got an actual source of infinite light from Hamlet. The blowdart bug with Glommer? Fixed when we got the Moonstorm allowing players to farm glommer every night. Klei listened to us when the volt goat herd duping g bug was fixed and we got it as an *actual* feature

 

Klei intentionally leaves cheeses/exploits in all the time. Now I dont *want* to cheese a lot of stuff but when you're giving me stuff like Crab King then I'll fight unfair with unfair lol. I dont *want* to exploit hound waves past day 100 by going in the caves and out, but they're just tedious and not an actual challenge at that point. I suppose exploits and cheeses are a sort of bandaid fix, but it works for the time being as Klei dont have some of these on their priority yet.

Guardian was made into a fun and fair fight, so the cheese doesnt need to exist anymore.

[Guille6785]

I think I'll gladly take the same treatment for bq, rn she's a very drawn out boss fight that consumes a lot of time and resources without actually being a challenge so I will never not cheese her unless I'm in a group

[Mike23Ua]

Depends on what you consider to be “cheese” in its current form: Some of this games bosses are extremely problematic, for example: I dare any of you to join any server with other players where YOU want to fight Dragonfly Without doing the Best known method to fight it… and you will discover that the other players will Kick/Report you for not playing the way they want you to. This is EXTREMELY Problematic on XBOX LIVE- because if you happen to get reported enough (even false reports work) then you can get temporary bans from Xbox Live, which means any game that requires online access to play, yeah your not playing anytime soon.

Ive actually managed to score myself SEVERAL Xbox Live bans, simply just because I wanted to play Dont Starve Together well uhhh “TOGETHER” with other players, but I also didn’t want to use their Methods of fighting a boss in the game, and I was reported for things like “Disrupting everyone else’s fun”

and why? Because I wanted to fight Dragonfly without building the Great Wall of China around her??? These bosses ABSOLUTELY need to be changed, if Klei doesn’t intend for you to fight them in the methods that you fight them..

Overall, these are exciting pieces of Content, most of them even have their own unique mechanics/mobs involved in the fight: But if people can just “Cheese” certain strategies- All the work Klei poured into making that fight interesting and fun & engaging to the player goes out the freaking Window.

I honestly feel “Ashamed” when I need to resort to some unfun Tactic to do something simply because if I DON’T I might get kicked/Banned, or because the fight itself is just too tedious/unfun to want to do the right way..

With all that said, it’s not up to ANY OF US PLAYERS to determine what is or isn’t the “Right Way” it’s instead entirely up to KLEI and how they wanted players to engage, interact with & experience that content they busted their asses in hopes we would enjoy.

When your NOT Enjoying something, that’s when you should speak up about it most.

[xDarkSoul18x]

I think "cheese" is a rather vague term. If by cheese you mean fixing an exploit (Being able to hide behind a tombstone and just smack away at the guardian with no threat) yes. If you mean like just tanking Clops next to a fire with a hambat and football helmets, no.

[Cheggf]

Ancient Guardian's cheese was not only extremely simple (Literally just walking behind a pillar VS making boat(s), switching to Winona, making catapults, making a ton of statues is incomparable) but in many people's eyes necessary for one reason or another. The fight before, done without the "cheese", was really boring. He's just an enormous HP sponge that doesn't do anything interesting. You either "cheese" him a different way by standing at a specific range, just tank his big damage attacks for a really long time, or do some fast very specific hits for an extremely long time that makes the fight drag on and on and on.

The Ancient Guardian "cheese" is one of a kind, no other boss comes anywhere remotely close to it. It's not like this update was even fixing his "cheese", it was making the fight fun.

[kuroite]

I would like every exploits to be patched but at the end of the day, Klei is the final judge.

They will patch any method that they dont want to allow just like they patched Klaus sack reset RNG abuse and i will accept their choice.

[Yuuko]

Absolutely not.  Part of the reason to rework AG may have been cheese accessibility but the AG needed full rework.  The boss was very old, buggy, and really unfair to fight honestly - especially considering its loot table.  This has nothing to do with cheese.

imo "cheese" is an integral and unavoidable part of every game.  Whether you're talking about fighting game frame traps, exploiting ai in dark souls, or building a wall to block lavae...  There will always be "cheese," or shall we say "meta strategy" involved.  "Meta" meaning using information outside the game / theme.  Utilizing the underlying mechanics, ai, pathing, timing etc.  Not only could your game not deny your players options on this level, it would be bad if you did because you only serve to restrict player skill and creative expression.  Dev time devoted to limiting these styles of play in a pve game should be reserved for only the most egregious offenses.

A bit ago they changed smolder in a way that ruined one of the early game bee queen farms.  The change didn't really do much else for the game, so I'd consider this a patch simply addressing a cheese they didn't like.  I think it was a waste of dev time, but considering this cheese reduced the interactivity of the fight to literally nil with only a minimal set up I don't raise a fuss about it.  There are still cheese methods available, including 0 interactivity fire farms...  So what was the benefit of this dev time?  Nothing imo.

If players are cheesing a boss because the boss fight is bad, unfair, or unfun then rework the boss to target those pain points.  Don't go out patching every minor thing a player does you don't like.

[dip935]

It doesn't matter if the cheese is fix. The community will find new cheeses.

[-Variant]

7 hours ago, Hornete said:

My opinion will always be "fix the cheese if the feature is made to be fair/fun"

 

This. People cheese bosses for a reason, and more times than not said reason is simply because it's not a fun/fair fight. EG: Ancient Guardian.

If they're to fix cheeses, which I would like, they really should change up the fight to be more fun and worthwhile. 

[Well-met]

7 minutes ago, -Variant said:

This. People cheese bosses for a reason, and more times than not said reason is simply because it's not a fun/fair fight. EG: Ancient Guardian.

If they're to fix cheeses, which I would like, they really should change up the fight to be more fun and worthwhile. 

I think dragonfly, beequeen and ancient fuel are very fun and worthwhile. What would you change about them?

[mr. brj]

I don't cheese any bosses except for using panflutes as Wanda to prevent the enraged Dragonfly. Heck, I would even kick my best friend out of my server for building a fire farm, but I also think that a way to cheese every mob that can attack the player should exist in the game. One of the original themes of DS was "science", and placing ice flingos, certain structures or small mobs in specific positions is the closest thing the player can get that resembles science.

All this being said, if some bosses are rather cheesed by the majority, then those bosses need to be revisited, just like the Ancient Guardian. Oh, and I believe that removing the gravestone cheese was just a semi-intended side product. I think the main reason for removing the gravestone collision is because AG could land on gravestones when he jumped, causing him to teleport higher into the y-axis and ignore certain collisions including the land border (or something similar, I'm not entirely sure).

[O_Atoba_Azul]

Only if they improve the bosses. Removing cheese without making the boss good makes the boss even worse.

[Well-met]

3 minutes ago, mr. brj said:

I don't cheese any bosses except for using panflutes as Wanda to prevent the enraged Dragonfly.

that is genuine use of the flute.

[mr. brj]

Just now, Well-met said:

that is genuine use of the flute.

Skipping the enraged form makes me feel like I'm disrespecting the Dragonfly. It's just my personal preference though.

[Yuuko]

54 minutes ago, Well-met said:

I think dragonfly, beequeen and ancient fuel are very fun and worthwhile. What would you change about them?

I think AFW is different from dfly and bqueen.  AFW is pretty well balanced for a single person to be able to handle.  Using catapults, weather pains, or kiting to keep AFW from absorbing shadows are all possible, and its health is not so extreme.  dfly and bqueen are different b/c they summon several smaller mobs which become a massive problem solo if you were to try and kite / tank them like you would any other boss.

dfly's larvae have 500 health.  It would take Wilson 8 attacks with a dark sword, or 9 with a fresh hambat to kill it.  If you perfectly dodge its leap and engage you'll have time to hit it 4-5 times before you need to step back to dodge again.  If you commit to taking damage you'll get 7 out before it hits you again.  Similarly bqueen spawns grumbles and while they have only 180 health, she spawns them en masse and will respawn them instantly after the first stage.

Characters with 1x damage mod simply cannot keep up with these in combat, and must resort to some type of cheese to solo them.  Whether that is using an ice staff, a wall, damage boosting food, lengthy kiting patterns, abusing pathing, pan flute, w/e something extra needs to be done.  The only difference is how much knowledge / prep you're willing to invest, and how much you want to risk leaving in the fight.  I've had lavae fail to freeze after 3-5 shots, and targeting issues where I freeze one lavae and even though I'm clicking on the other, it still casts on the first again...  so for my money, when my world is on the line, I'll build a wall unless I pick a combat character.  For Wigfrid, Walry, Wolfgang, and Wanda these fight are fine with just an ice staff and pan flute.

What would I change about these?  Currently nothing.  But if we were patching out cheese I'd change quite a bit!  Probably start with cutting the spawn rate of ads to scale with player count, and regulate how they spawn a lot better to create a fair fight.

10 minutes ago, Well-met said:

that is genuine use of the flute.

Its as much cheese as anything else lol  Why not be a *real* tryhard and fight through rage mode? lol

[Well-met]

15 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I think AFW is different from dfly and bqueen.  AFW is pretty well balanced for a single person to be able to handle.  Using catapults, weather pains, or kiting to keep AFW from absorbing shadows are all possible, and its health is not so extreme.  dfly and bqueen are different b/c they summon several smaller mobs which become a massive problem solo if you were to try and kite / tank them like you would any other boss.

dfly's larvae have 500 health.  It would take Wilson 8 attacks with a dark sword, or 9 with a fresh hambat to kill it.  If you perfectly dodge its leap and engage you'll have time to hit it 4-5 times before you need to step back to dodge again.  If you commit to taking damage you'll get 7 out before it hits you again.  Similarly bqueen spawns grumbles and while they have only 180 health, she spawns them en masse and will respawn them instantly after the first stage.

Characters with 1x damage mod simply cannot keep up with these in combat, and must resort to some type of cheese to solo them.  Whether that is using an ice staff, a wall, damage boosting food, lengthy kiting patterns, abusing pathing, pan flute, w/e something extra needs to be done.  The only difference is how much knowledge / prep you're willing to invest, and how much you want to risk leaving in the fight.  I've had lavae fail to freeze after 3-5 shots, and targeting issues where I freeze one lavae and even though I'm clicking on the other, it still casts on the first again...  so for my money, when my world is on the line, I'll build a wall unless I pick a combat character.  For Wigfrid, Walry, Wolfgang, and Wanda these fight are fine with just an ice staff and pan flute.

What would I change about these?  Currently nothing.  But if we were patching out cheese I'd change quite a bit!  Probably start with cutting the spawn rate of ads to scale with player count, and regulate how they spawn a lot better to create a fair fight.

they are designed for multiple people. Don't starve together puts emphasis on multiplayer. If you can't get multiple people then you can try multiple hirelings, preferably armored.

Otherwise you have to accept they are foes out of your reach.

Fortunately you can get their loot via Klaus which is fairly simple even for a single person.

19 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Its as much cheese as anything else lol  Why not be a *real* tryhard and fight through rage mode? lol

i am unsure how you expect anyone to respond to such a horrible statement. This isn't Discord.

[Dextops]

Just now, Well-met said:

they are designed for multiple people. Don't starve together puts emphasis on multiplayer. If you can't get multiple people then you can try multiple hirelings, preferably armored.

Otherwise you have to accept they are foes out of your reach.

Fortunately you can get their loot via Klaus which is fairly simple even for a single person.

for multiplayer they are even less fun since they just melt. Most of the things in this game play out the same solo or team it doesn't matter but for stuff like this it is just annoying

[ArubaroBeefalo]

43 minutes ago, Well-met said:

i am unsure how you expect anyone to respond to such a horrible statement. This isn't Discord.

saying that when you said this:

44 minutes ago, Well-met said:

they are designed for multiple people. Don't starve together puts emphasis on multiplayer. If you can't get multiple people then you can try multiple hirelings, preferably armored.

Otherwise you have to accept they are foes out of your reach.

Fortunately you can get their loot via Klaus which is fairly simple even for a single person.

 

idk what to think

[Yuuko]

51 minutes ago, Well-met said:

they are designed for multiple people. Don't starve together puts emphasis on multiplayer. If you can't get multiple people then you can try multiple hirelings, preferably armored.

Otherwise you have to accept they are foes out of your reach.

Fortunately you can get their loot via Klaus which is fairly simple even for a single person.

Or how about this...  I use a game element to overcome an obstacle in the game.  Is that okay with you?

b/c whether its a pan flute, wall, ice staff, flingo, pathing, ai, mobs, or irl friends joining me - they are all things the game devs made possible for us.

When the devs put walls in the game their intended function was to block pathing.  This is evident in the fact that they do exactly that.  This effects players and most mobs, including lavae.  Some aren't effected the same.  Bees fly over walls, hounds attack them, many mobs simply plow through them.  If the devs wanted lavae to do anything else they could have...  so I can only assume they wanted their interaction to be exactly what it is.

Is that a genuine use for you?  To use a wall to wall off a mob that is vulnerable to being walled off by them?  What about wetting dfly when I use volt goat jelly?  You wanna start a list?  this could get lengthy...

Quote

i am unsure how you expect anyone to respond to such a horrible statement. This isn't Discord.

git gud scrub?

Spoiler

 

I mean really...  we all define our own level of engagement.  You don't have to use a pan flute to fight her, but you choose to.  No one has to use a wall, they choose to.  They are both literally the same situation, just countering a different element of the fight.  Its a choice in how you want to have the fight play out.

I like choices - especially since the characters vary widely in power levels, and not everyone can have a group of friends with them every game.

[GenomeSquirrel]

I prefer they keep as much cheese as possible, I like when cunning is rewarded