Since they patched Ancient Guardian cheese, do you think they should fix other bosses cheese?

[Well-met]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

Or how about this...  I use a game element to overcome an obstacle in the game.  Is that okay with you?

b/c whether its a pan flute, wall, ice staff, flingo, pathing, ai, mobs, or irl friends joining me - they are all things the game devs made possible for us.

When the devs put walls in the game their intended function was to block pathing.  This is evident in the fact that they do exactly that.  This effects players and most mobs, including lavae.  Some aren't effected the same.  Bees fly over walls, hounds attack them, many mobs simply plow through them.  If the devs wanted lavae to do anything else they could have...  so I can only assume they wanted their interaction to be exactly what it is.

The flaw here is that walls compensate their ability to divert enemy pathing by being destructable themselves. you funnel enemy forces where you want them to go at the cost of repairing or losing those barricades. If there's a gaping hole in a barricade then pathing through it and not wasting time attacking walls is the right thing to do for a mob. However this becomes extremely abusable by combining this maneuver with other obstacles such as pools, ponds, signs, bones which the AI fail to acknowledge.

In addition, most mobs have very poor scripting that disallow them to fight walls at all which rather disrupts the idea behind barricades. There is no good logic whatsoever that would justify being able to trap pig guards within their own totem spawns especially when werepigs have no trouble getting out. This part is on Klei.

In addition, the fact that lureplants or weaver bones are solid is merely to follow basic consistency with most other objects and mobs and not to serve as invincible brickwalls. This was proven true when the ocean tree nuts had the same... usefulness but were quickly changed to disallow this.

There is such a thing as unintended design and klei has proven to deal with it at times, like when they fixed the fuelweaver problem where cages failed to spawn near the edge of the abyss. Overreaction, panic and backlash such as yours is very likely why they're so hesitant to fix exploits.

On a last note, there's many discrepancies with how various giants are able to destroy/stomp objects on touch and which objects they can/can't and I feel a little clean-up wouldn't be out of place. 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

27 minutes ago, Well-met said:

The flaw here is that walls compensate their ability to divert enemy pathing by being destructable themselves. you funnel enemy forces where you want them to go at the cost of repairing or losing those barricades. If there's a gaping hole in a barricade then pathing through it and not wasting time attacking walls is the right thing to do for a mob. However this becomes extremely abusable by combining this maneuver with other obstacles such as pools, ponds, signs, bones which the AI fail to acknowledge.

In addition, most mobs have very poor scripting that disallow them to fight walls at all which rather disrupts the idea behind barricades. There is no good logic whatsoever that would justify being able to trap pig guards within their own totem spawns especially when werepigs have no trouble getting out. This part is on Klei.

In addition, the fact that lureplants or weaver bones are solid is merely to follow basic consistency with most other objects and mobs and not to serve as invincible brickwalls. This was proven true when the ocean tree nuts had the same... usefulness but were quickly changed to disallow this.

There is such a thing as unintended design and klei has proven to deal with it at times, like when they fixed the fuelweaver problem where cages failed to spawn near the edge of the abyss. Overreaction, panic and backlash such as yours is very likely why they're so hesitant to fix exploits.

On a last note, there's many discrepancies with how various giants are able to destroy/stomp objects on touch and which objects they can/can't and I feel a little clean-up wouldn't be out of place. 

i get your point but you arent forced to use them, is like the celestial portal, a choice, and for some people that can help to lose the fear of fighting a boss in a survival game where you lose resources or even the world if you fail

some people might start doing cheese and later reduce it or there will be people who dont enjoy fighting them at all and doesnt affect us. Meanwhile klei can bring good and fun fights, cheesing shouldnt be a problem for any body

[Mike23Ua]

4 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i get your point but you arent forced to use them, is like the celestial portal, a choice, and for some people that can help to lose the fear of fighting a boss in a survival game where you lose resources or even the world if you fail

some people might start doing cheese and later reduce it or there will be people who dont enjoy fighting them at all and doesnt affect us. Meanwhile klei can bring good and fun fights, cheesing shouldnt be a problem for any body

But if you have to cheese a fight.. is it a fun fight? Consider the following: What if Klei overhauls the dragonfly fight- Now Larvae can squeeze themselves through or jump over the walls you put up, why would you still put up the walls? To slow them down.. they’ll take time with new animations to seep through the walls like lava or jump over them, time you wouldn’t have without the wall… but the wall also isn’t an Instant Win anymore: you can’t block off larvae and just not deal with them at all.

This is change ONE for my move for a more fun Dragonfly..

Change TWO is to lower its overall huge amounts of health but give it a brand new mechanic of being able to heal small portions of its health by having its Larvae jump onto its back and harden becoming a new Scale after you’ve knocked one off.

So how is this better then current Dragonfly you ask? It makes you want to deal with focusing on freezing/slowing down Larvae healing her instead of just dealing with. Dragonfly.

Similar to how if your going to fight a Spider Queen, you’ll want to wipe out its Nurse Spiders first.

There is DEFIANTLY room for Klei to improve old gameplay content if they wanted to.

[UbiAnomaly]

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

Change TWO is to lower its overall huge amounts of health but give it a brand new mechanic of being able to heal small portions of its health by having its Larvae jump onto its back and harden becoming a new Scale after you’ve knocked one off.

 

Nobody wants a Crab King x Bee Queen crossover.

Spammy minions that heal should be reserved for Fuelweaver.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

But if you have to cheese a fight.. is it a fun fight?

you dont have to cheese a fight, you have the option of cheesing a fight

about being fun or not, that depends of the person. For me isnt fun but not for that i will force people to play like i like to play the game, that is elitist (you love this word) and selfish

[Yuuko]

8 hours ago, Well-met said:

The flaw here is that walls compensate their ability to divert enemy pathing by being destructable themselves.

Spoiler

Hounds will attack a wall even if they have pathing to get to you.  Bees will fly over any structure if they fail to find a path to you.

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very poor scripting that disallow them to fight walls at all which rather disrupts the idea behind barricades.

If Lavae were meant to have either of these ways to deal with walls, they would.  This isn't a "scripting error," its a design choice.  This actually puts meaning behind the idea of a barricade as most walls aren't built to be slowly destroyed, but rather to last.  Its the exception that we have mobs that destroy walls, otherwise they wouldn't be useful lol

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There is such a thing as unintended design and klei has proven to deal with it at times, like when they fixed the fuelweaver problem where cages failed to spawn near the edge of the abyss. Overreaction, panic and backlash such as yours is very likely why they're so hesitant to fix exploits.

They didn't "fix" this, it went away when a completely different thing got changed.  Also I think Klei is hesitant to fix "exploits" because a large part of their design philosophy is to encourage emergent gaming.  They didn't sit down to design bee queen and say "we need a fight that is *ONLY* for groups, solo players must "accept they are foes out of your reach."  Rather I think they sat down and thought up what would be a fun boss, with new and interesting things to do, with a high bar - and let the players figure the rest out themselves.

7 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

But if you have to cheese a fight.. is it a fun fight?

Cheese can be very fun.  Its largely personal preference.  Fortunately this is a co-op, pve game.  Nothing I do in my server means anything to you in yours.  Make friends who share your play style if you hate seeing people do other things.

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Consider the following: What if Klei overhauls the dragonfly fight- Now Larvae can squeeze themselves through or jump over the walls you put up, why would you still put up the walls? To slow them down.. they’ll take time with new animations to seep through the walls like lava or jump over them, time you wouldn’t have without the wall… but the wall also isn’t an Instant Win anymore: you can’t block off larvae and just not deal with them at all.

Every time you say that, it never sounds better :\ 

Mostly because the entire purpose behind this suggestion is about limiting one alternative means of dealing with her phases, meanwhile you're mr brilliant using the twin terrors to fight them while you hide in a berry bush.  Why don't you suggest making all bosses non-hostile to each other?

[SomebodyRandom]

10 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

But if you have to cheese a fight.. is it a fun fight? Consider the following: What if Klei overhauls the dragonfly fight- Now Larvae can squeeze themselves through or jump over the walls you put up, why would you still put up the walls? To slow them down.. they’ll take time with new animations to seep through the walls like lava or jump over them, time you wouldn’t have without the wall… but the wall also isn’t an Instant Win anymore: you can’t block off larvae and just not deal with them at all.

This is change ONE for my move for a more fun Dragonfly..

Change TWO is to lower its overall huge amounts of health but give it a brand new mechanic of being able to heal small portions of its health by having its Larvae jump onto its back and harden becoming a new Scale after you’ve knocked one off.

So how is this better then current Dragonfly you ask? It makes you want to deal with focusing on freezing/slowing down Larvae healing her instead of just dealing with. Dragonfly.

I hate when bosses spawn a ton of minions at once. Fuelweaver is fine because his minions have 1 hp and deal no damage, the rest do not.

As long as bosses spawn a ton of minions that deal a ton of damage and do not stop the boss from attacking while they attack (Like Klaus), I will continue to cheese them because it's just not fun. And now you want Dragonfly's minions to heal her while at it.

10 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

This is change ONE for my move for a more fun Dragonfly..

More like change one to make people stop fighting Dragonfly altogether.

[jan Mele]

1 hour ago, SomebodyRandom said:

More like change one to make people stop fighting Dragonfly altogether.

You can freeze larvae with ice staffs.  

Dfly is not as bad as BBQ and Spoder Queen, tbh.

[Yuuko]

3 hours ago, jan Mele said:

You can freeze larvae with ice staffs.  

Dfly is not as bad as BBQ and Spoder Queen, tbh.

Ice staff are less reliable.  When dfly spits out a lavae her sprite can block it making it difficult to target, targeting can bug and cast on the previous target instead of the new one, and lavae could fail to freeze in 3 shots depending on the environment.  A wall is very reliable compared to this.  No shame in using a wall unless you're trying to show off or something lol.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 hours ago, jan Mele said:

You can freeze larvae with ice staffs.  

Dfly is not as bad as BBQ and Spoder Queen, tbh.

beequeen is easier for the whole reason of being so easy to isolate her from her minions because of the differences of speed

about spider queen... just freeze her if you have problems fighting her, way less ice staff uses and way less hp than df without taking in count the fire damage from her minions or how easy is to kite spider queen in comparation to df

[Mike23Ua]

Look, I’m just saying that if Ancient Guardian was reworked, and Deerclops was changed a bit.. alongside Hound Waves- there is a very very real possibility that in those other two QoLs due out this year that another game boss will be the highlight of that update.

My changes to Dragonfly would be:

Lower Total HP down to like 5000-8000 but allow Larvae to jump onto her and heal her, Make Walls slow down.. but not completely stop Larvae, Dragonfly can only spawn so many at once- and they can be frozen in 2 hits, in addition: you can temporarily block off an entire lava pond by throwing in a bath bomb that freezes it over into a Moonpond.

The new ancient guardian fight added new game mechanics & refreshed its fight, don’t be surprised at all when other bosses get this same treatment.

And from my personal opinion is still If players need to cheese a boss or use a particular most effective method to fight said boss: that posses the questions of is the fight itself even any fun..? Or are people just Cheesing it to get it over and done with because fighting it the intended way just isn’t worth it? And of course: What does KLEI Entertainment considers to be “Cheesing” within their game?

I get it.. not everyone likes change, but so far I haven’t seen many complaints about the changes done to AG.

[Yuuko]

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And from my personal opinion is still If players need to cheese a boss or use a particular most effective method to fight said boss: that posses the questions of is the fight itself even any fun..? Or are people just Cheesing it to get it over and done with because fighting it the intended way just isn’t worth it? And of course: What does KLEI Entertainment considers to be “Cheesing” within their game?

You gotta consider more then that.  Part of the game is fun, part is progression.  If I want to have fun fighting dfly I can do a lot of things to change it up.  I did a fight against her with no pan flute, fighting through her rage mode - it was a lot of fun.  It also had a very low success rate b/c messing up even once could mean death...  When we're fighting her for progression we want to get her loot safely.  Death puts us behind and costs resources, something we want to avoid early game.  These are two different, totally valid and open paths a player can take when approaching her.

Having multiple ways to engage content should be considered a good thing.  Want to summon the twin terrors to help out?  Go for it!  The best part is that none of the approaches are exclusionary.  You're free to choose how you want to engage her.  Variety is the spice of life.

[jan Mele]

10 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

beequeen is easier for the whole reason of being so easy to isolate her from her minions because of the differences of speed

Yeah, she just takes a lot of time to kill cheeseless 

I was talking about how annoying the minions are, not how difficult the fights are. I should have specified, lol.

[NOOOBU]

No cheese anymore means that here must be feasible ways to kill it just like AG this time

I DO NOT want to see the UNSTOPPABLE miserable Toad but I can do nothing with it.

No more cheese is not accurately described, I guess what you really want is a fair but inspiring boss fight.

Well, new AG hooray!

[Left 4 Sharkb8]

It's not that they "removed the cheese" they reworked the boss fight to be more enjoyable and worthwhile, rather than having it be some sucky boss fight with terrible loot that you need a speed bonus in order to beat. Would I be fine if the Dfly wall strategy was removed without any other tweaks? No! Absolutely not! But if the Dfly fight was more fun an interactive (rather than kite for 30 seconds and then wait for another 30 seconds) I wouldn't mind at all. The "cheese" issue is arguably a fundamental one that involves the sleep-inducing health pool of most raid bosses, along with poor design such as resource sink requirements (i.e weather pain if you have no friends to do crab king), minion spam, and, despite the very objective nature of it, I'd argue interactivity and complexity fall into this issue as well. Removing ways to fight a boss just hurts variety and doesn't really accomplish anything. If people absolutely despise fighting Bee Queen, but their cheese strat gets removed, they'll simply find another unless Bee Queen stops being one of the worst bosses in the game.

[Mantispidae]

I think it depends on what the cheese actually is. Dragonfly walls and catapults are like, fine to me and come with their own risks of resource loss if you screw up. Taking advantage of pathing can be creative. But things like the 20 knights on a boat could maybe be worked on- but everyones line in the sand is different here.

 

Some of the less popular or fun bosses could maybe use a look or two in general, but others like deerclops are fine as-is as simple.

[Mike23Ua]

Ultimately it depends on how KLEI wants that content to work, if your doing something in the game they did not intend for you to do, it will be patched out.

I once played a MMO with my dad & my dad was determined to get on the other side of this mountain so he kept trying to climb it or glitch to the other side, and all of a sudden the game goes down for everyone playing.. everyone except for my dad- So I’m sitting in the same room watching him try to get over this mountain onto the other side and when he finally does it his game also goes down, the servers stay down for like 3 hours and when they finally come back up… the entire mountain had been redesigned and every route my dad TRIED to get across during his time playing as the only player able to play in an MMO had been fixed.

Now to be fair… You weren’t supposed to get on the other side of this mountain until you reached a high enough level to be there because the other side had the games “End Game Content” and he was trying to get there at like rank 12.

I swear to god that that’s a true story, and it just goes to help drive home my point that if developers don’t intend for you to do something in their game they WILL patch it.

And.. if I’m being honest about it: Why hire a team of play/beta testers when you can just observe your players playing the game and then make changes as your studio deems those changes to be necessary?

TL:DR- if Klei doesn’t intend for you to interact with their games content in X way then they will patch or change X.

Its not about patching “cheese” but rather- making the content they worked to create work the way they intend for you to interact with it.

And if my father can get an entire mountain redesigned because of his determination to get across to the other side- I’m pretty sure we will 100% see fixes to things like pinning Klaus behind a Lureplant or Shadow Knight Boat tricks.

[landromat]

On 3/1/2022 at 4:31 PM, Well-met said:

yes but it's easier than you think

a whole lot of it is about the walls and the weaver bones so you don't even need to change the bosses themselves.

Yes, better pathfinding for mobs could solve a lot of cheese tactics

[Juny Pear]

My stance is, if the fight is fun and reasonable to do (both for multiple people as well as solo players) then I am 100% fine with cheese being fixed. Otherwise I absolutely feel like all that would do is alienate certain players.

I also feel it is important to mention that not every strategy is immediately cheese (at least in my eyes). To me what makes cheese cheesy is when you either entirely bypass a fight or trivialize it to a point there was basically no fight.
Examples to me would be using houndius/walter against fuelweaver with lureplants, campfire tanking on deerclops or what plagued ancient guardian for a long time in using the pillars or graves to get what is essentially a free fight.
I don't personally consider using walls for dragonfly cheese because you're still putting in effort to fight her, even if one part of the fight is taken out of the equation. The fight becomes easier, it's just not entirely trivialized, and thus I consider it more of a strat than just holding f whilst I tank a grand total of 40 damage before my enemy dies.

And even then in some instances where I would consider it cheese, I don't personally find it bad that it exists as one option that you could also agree with yourself not to use under the condition that the fight itself can still bring some fun. The biggest examples for me would probably be fuelweaver and specifically the tier 3 shadow rook. I could cheese both of them if I so chose, I just probably don't want to because the fight itself can be pretty fun.

As hornete has said I absolutely don't find cheese or exploits to be a bad thing provided the thing you are cheesing is not very fun, and I feel like the flipside of that should be just because cheese exists doesnt mean you have to use it, I know how tempting these things can be, but at the end of the day the game is not forcing you to do it and you can approach bosses etc. any way you like.
And if someone tells somebody else that what they're doing is a bad thing even though it doesn't influence you in any way, then that's a point where I feel like we should stay a bit chill.

[Grim0514]

creative or resource intesive cheese are fine imo but the fact lureplant cheese still exists is kinda baffeling, why can i destroy a lureplant with my bare hands but elderich horrors are completely inable to touch them

[Mantispidae]

4 hours ago, Nettalie said:

I also feel it is important to mention that not every strategy is immediately cheese (at least in my eyes). To me what makes cheese cheesy is when you either entirely bypass a fight or trivialize it to a point there was basically no fight.

This is basically exactly where I stand on this:

"Cheese" that limits aspects of the fight or makes things easier but still require you to at least engage with it in some way (Like the dragonfly wall strat letting you avoid the larva but you still have to fight her and she can still break the walls if you mess up): Fine and dandy, let people have it.
"Cheese" that effectively removes the entire fight and has almost no failstate other than doing it wrong: Could be worth looking at

I don't think its wrong or bad to use either of them while they exist, but I do prefer if ways to actually break a fight entirely were limited, while clever ways to manipulate in your favor were allowed to stay

[Yuuko]

idk - thing is, most people only hate these "cheese" things b/c they know about them.  What if people who discover these things just never tell anyone, and the entire community refuses to mention tactics that could help a struggling new player?

The concern about cheese is 1000% overblown imo - PLAY HOW YOU WANT.  If you don't want to cheese, then don't.  It matters ZERO what I do on my server.

Fact is - cheese will ALWAYS exist.  AI is coded to have certain behavior which means all you have to do is figure out what that behavior is...  There is literally no way around this.

y'all some serious whiners when you think your game is worse b/c someone on another shard with absolutely nothing to do with you is gonna play different.

[Cheggf]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

idk - thing is, most people only hate these "cheese" things b/c they know about them.  What if people who discover these things just never tell anyone, and the entire community refuses to mention tactics that could help a struggling new player?

The concern about cheese is 1000% overblown imo - PLAY HOW YOU WANT.  If you don't want to cheese, then don't.  It matters ZERO what I do on my server.

Fact is - cheese will ALWAYS exist.  AI is coded to have certain behavior which means all you have to do is figure out what that behavior is...  There is literally no way around this.

y'all some serious whiners when you think your game is worse b/c someone on another shard with absolutely nothing to do with you is gonna play different.

100%. I never use cheese since I think the fights are fun, but the way this game works "cheese" is part of the experience. The only way cheese can affect me is if I'm on a public server and someone cheeses a boss before I can kill it normally. But that's on me for taking too long, if I really wanted to fight it I should have done so sooner instead of waiting so long that someone gathered enough resources to create some cheese then rallied the server to join them in holding F.

This is a sandbox game. There are no achievements. There are no milestones, no leaderboards, no massive servers, no persistent unlocks, it doesn't even have any form of anticheat. This isn't the game to care about how other people are more creative than you think they should be. With how open the sandbox is I haven't even seen a consensus on what "cheese" is. Is using a pan flute in its intended manner, to make things fall asleep, cheese? How are you actually "supposed" to fight dragonfly? Do you hit the lavae? Freeze them? Are you supposed to sleep her to skip enrage or is that cheese and you should fight her enraged?

Just play how you want to play. If someone is doing something you don't like that's actually impacting you and you're not just upset for no reason talk to them about it.