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Brainstorming About Maxwell & Wicker Updates


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I really love these guys. They are hard for begginers but god for experienced characters. They have unique styles and mechanics.

 Wicker is ok but Maxwell started need a an update after Woodie and Walter update. Woodie taked harvester role of Maxwell and Walter taked sanity role of Maxwell. Yes Maxwell is still slightly better then both but it's not enough I think. His powers don't work correct. For example, duelists. They are uselles except using for keeping myself insane... But the problem is that, if klei buffs their power, Maxwell will become an OP character and I really wonder how klei will make the best of a bad bargain.

 Same thing will be happen for Wickerbottom. She is good for now but she will look uninspiring when all characters gets rework. And I think it's will be hard to balancing her powers. IMO Wicker needs more downside and a new interesting book but still don't know what she will turn.

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I would make Maxwell more "dapper". Have more control over his shadows, but he will refuse to do tedious tasks like, chopping, digging, mining (shadows will do for him).

Edit: He has this entitled syndrome, since he was the king of the constant for a long time, so it fits very well.

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Ability to use real shadow magic using Codex Umbra and a lot of sanity would be great for Maxwell, like random effects every time - confusing enemies so they lose aggro for 30 seconds or teleportation like in vanilla DS, when he appears at start of the game and just teleports away. Also one idea i seen somewhere here about duelists - adding them a feature of acting similar to Klaus Deers, with synchronization between them and copying Maxwell moves.

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2 minutes ago, Slagger said:

How?

Something similar to actionque mod, he can select what trees, rocks, or saplings to dig rather than his shadows pick what is close to Max proximity. A bit annoying that you have to kill a shadowminer, because it can sneakily mine a marble pillar near base.

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Unpopular opinion maybe, But I really like where Maxwell is at right now. Hes a fun and enjoyable character to me. All I would want is some duelists buffs/tweaks. But even then I really love using duelists. I feel like people expect duelists to be amazing in every combat situation for some reason.

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2 minutes ago, Hornete said:

Unpopular opinion maybe, But I really like where Maxwell is at right now. Hes a fun and enjoyable character to me. All I would want is some duelists buffs/tweaks. But even then I really love using duelists. I feel like people expect duelists to be amazing in every combat situation for some reason.

the complain was not that everytime they attack something they pull a pigman and try to kite and run away for 12 miles away?

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1 hour ago, Slagger said:

Woodie taked harvester role of Maxwell

Maxwell is by far the best gatherer. I had done a test with my friend, so not the most accurate, but the result was that in the time it took Woodie to chop all the trees Maxwell had chopped all the trees, dug all the stumps, picked up all the logs, and put them all in nearby chests. I forget exactly how many trees it was, I think it was like 30, but he did it in like half the time. His harvesters also have a bunch of extra uses like clearing debris while sailing since they'll walk over the water. His harvesters are also great at every breakable (other than hammers) instead of just trees. His harvesters can also function properly while you're holding a lantern or anything else. I could've sped it up even more if I helped them chop, too.

1 hour ago, Slagger said:

and Walter taked sanity role of Maxwell

No he didn't. I see new players dying to shadows as Walter all the time because of how quickly he loses it whenever you get hurt. Maxwell's permanent 6.67 makes him more or less always sane even if he's getting hit.

Also, picking a character to ignore sanity is probably the worst reason to pick a character unless you're trying to AFK overnight, in which case either Maxwell or Walter would do fine.

1 hour ago, Slagger said:

His powers don't work correct. For example, duelists. They are uselles except using for keeping myself insane... But the problem is that, if klei buffs their power, Maxwell will become an OP character and I really wonder how klei will make the best of a bad bargain.

Duelists are not useless. They make him the fourth best at gathering drops from spiders and will boost his DPS up as long as you're properly engaging in the fight and the enemy doesn't have cleaving attacks. He's already by far the best gatherer, by far the best sailor, can completely ignore sanity if he chooses to, and can read Wickerbottom's books, the sole reason Wickerbottom is so powerful. I don't think he needs, on top of all of that, to be the best fighter. He's already arguably the strongest character.

If he were to get a rework, which I want him to just so he can get a cool summoning animation instead of the generic work one, I would want it to remove his flint dependancy. Woodie can already chop infinite trees for just one inventory slot at no cost, so I have this idea for Maxwell to be able to summon his little dudes without the flint (and possibly NMF) cost, instead having it cost sanity, so he would be better at it but have a slight cost instead of none. Summoning a shadow would instantly drain a certain amount of sanity based on what it is, then while they're active they also have a set sanity/m drain, and if your sanity reaches 0 your shadows would despawn. I think it would make him a lot more fun to play, not having to do annoying inventory stuff just to summon guys, being more free to summon guys, and giving duelists more popularity since you don't need to make some spears and have them sitting in your inventory for something that may or may not even help you. I don't think it would even make him more powerful since flint is only scarce on public servers you late join on, and if anything might even be a nerf since now you have to actually think about sanity both because it's possible to lose it and because it's the resource you use to use your power. But I think it would be fun, at least worth trying out as a mod or something.

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i just hope for more pronounced downsides for wicker (or any of the ''op'' characters), i mean, if she has all the tools to always eat fresh food (mass farming and can kill bee queen easilly for bundling wraps) why can't she be totally unable to eat any spoiled food at all?

and i think would make sense that she had a harder time being insane due to her insomnia. imagine having a bad night of sleep and a stressful day. maybe she could lose a bit of mov speed, or damage while at low sanity.

this, and adding 1 or 2 interesting books to her arsenal to compensate would make a decent rework of her

 

 

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I'd add to Wickerbottom new books, specially some that can be actively used during battle and target smaller areas, sort of like it was at the forge.
I'd also change the behavior of "the end is nigh" book:

Spoiler

Making her lightnings a special type of lightning, that would stun enemies affected for a couple of seconds and does not make enemies get on fire (the effect should not stack, as in, you can't keep deerclops stunned permanently by spam reading, but you can probably stun a lot of hounds for 5 seconds).

So casting it on fights would actually be useful, by creating a lightning field that will stun most enemies affected for at least 5 seconds.

I'd also remove the excessive flashing effect it currently has, to prevent seizures and general eye sore.


More utility books that buff everyone around her would also be a neat thing to have: 

Spoiler

 

EG:

  • A book that upon being read, casts a 20% damage reflection on any playable allies and NPC allies the team has within an area, and lasts X time.
  • A book that casts invisibility on all the players in a certain area for X time: players can move, eat and heal while invisible, but if they attack, craft something, place a structure, activate any building, or pick up something, they end the effect. Basically a timeout spell to heal safely during fights, or a way to sneak pass by enemies you don't want to face (yet). Lore wise it could be that it temporally phases the players into the shadow realm, so even though physical creatures can't see them, shadow creatures will.
  • A book that casts a heavy rain in a very small area for about a minute or two (so a cartoonie single-cloud rain sort of thing. A boost for electric based damage, or to quickly end a fire in a small place). Wet enemies could maybe take more stun time from the end is nigh lightnings (hence a synergy there)
  • A book that makes all affected allies receive more health from any healing source, for X time.
  • Etc.

 

 

I'd also make her spoiled foods penalty a lot stronger, like yellow food would give 0 positive stats, and red spoiled food will give all negative stats. Lower her HP to 125 (like on the forge) and give her a 10% extra damage from attacks received penalty (so she's less suited to facetank like any other younger character could).
So basically you'd be better solving most of your problems through your brain and magic.

As for Maxwell, besides improving the AI and control over minions, I think the duelists should draw any aggro they create towards Maxwell, and they should most likely add DPS to maxwell, not tank for him (but they also shouldn't despawn out of a bee sneeze like they do now)

I'd also give new tiers to his summons. 

Basic Codex umbra: same as it works now
Improved Codex:  made at at shadow manipulator with a basic codex, adds new shadows, like a shadow that picks up items of the ground, a shadow that holds a lantern or a torch for you, a new duelist that has a boomerang, improved behavior and strength of  the basic duelists (more like the forge), etc.
Ancient Codex: requires an improved codex to craft, can be made at a fully repaired pseudoscience, lets Maxwell cast shadow magic spells at the cost of sanity and blood (hp), and with cooldown times:

Spoiler

EG:

  • Casting shadow hands in an area that will trap enemies and keep them stuck in place for X time. It works sort of like a landmine, where each hand will capture one enemy and then despawn.
  • Casting a dakness shield dome in an area around maxwell. Maxwell can't move while he channels it, but allies can come in and out. The shield prevents enemies and shadow creatures from entering the area, and ranged attacks from hitting anyone inside. Maxwell drains sanity to keep it up, and once he reaches low sanity, the shield breaks and can't be casted again for X time. This could be useful in team games to cast a safe zone, or to allow your shadow minions to attack for you for a little bit, while jellybeans restore you.
  • Summon a bunch of terrorbeaks to run and attack any enemies around. They will attack once or twice, dealing a bunch of damage and then despawn. This is mostly just a ranged attack, at the cost of HP (for Maxwell). If no enemies are around at the time of summoning, they may just roam around Maxwell passively for X time until they either find a target to attack, or despawn over time.

As a bonus, Maxwell is always seen with night armor and dark sword, he even starts with these items on DS. I think he should get the perk that Walter got for a little while by accident: Being immune (or at least, more resistant) to the shadow magic sanity drain of dark sword and night armor.
This would stack with his regular sanity perk, which would remain the same.

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5 hours ago, KeshS said:

Something similar to actionque mod, he can select what trees, rocks, or saplings to dig rather than his shadows pick what is close to Max proximity. A bit annoying that you have to kill a shadowminer, because it can sneakily mine a marble pillar near base.

Maybe a bit like Abby. You can set them on auto mode, or you can "soothe" and make them easier to control.

Also, I think he should still be able to do it, but maybe it takes twice as long, thus using up durability of basic items and being an annoyance.

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8 hours ago, Hornete said:

But even then I really love using duelists. I feel like people expect duelists to be amazing in every combat situation for some reason.

In what situations/fights are you using them in? The reason why I hate to use the duellists is that their AI is too dumb to keep them alive. They aggro on themselves big groups of mobs that you don’t want/aren’t ready to fight yet or you just want to avoid by passing by. You can’t clear level 2-3 spider nest without them dying because they’ll attack the spiders before they leave the floor webbing thus spawning unnecessary spider warriors. It’s hard to use them for killing beefalos effectively since you want to separate the beef from its herd first and the quickest way to do it is by hit-run method. For bosses and smaller pig/bunnyman villages they are impractical since their kiting is rather curse than a perk. Only against groups of 1-2 maybe 3 enemies or against bees they are reliably useable. But I don't know if it's worth to use 4 nightmare fuels and 2 spears for that when they can so easily die.

 

I just wish that the player would have a little bit more control above them. I recently made a suggestion post. We have Abigale for killing big groups of enemies and I think that shadow duellist should reliably help Maxwell to deal additional damage to ONE target in more chaotic fights. I’m not saying that everything I suggested needs necessarily to be added to the game, but I think that the passive/aggressive mode and the formation is the right direction to make them reliably useable.

 

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I just want them to be more interesting to play as-

Keep in mind the following:
 

Every character refresh so far now has you gathering & carrying around in your inventory almost at all times new items that you normally wouldn’t have.. some even have unique craftable structures.

For Wendy those items are- Ashes, Flower Petals, Mourning Glory & Ectoherbology Potions, she can now also craft her own personal landmark item “Sisturn”

For Willow you will carry around Spider Silk, hounds teeth, Beard Hair, Beefalo Wool & Bernie. (no special craftable structures for her)

For Woodie you’ll be gathering Seeds, Grass, Wood and the occasional Itchy Transformstion item in your inventory more often than you normally would have.

The TL:DR here before this post becomes a long text book is that each character that has been Refreshed as Well as each Newer DLC Characters Wurt, Walter has been getting new items that take up more of their backpack slots, and/or new craftable items & Structures.

This is a trend I fully expect to carry over throughout the entire playable character cast.

And personally I feel like in a sandbox survival game- Knowing how to properly micro-mange Inventory should be a large part of the challenge.

 

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Woodie fells trees faster than Max when tapping the mouse optimally. In addition to this, Woodie can benefit from honey spiced foods. pair that with werebeaver and it's even more faster. Typically, the effort spent destumping is better used to just burn stumps.

 

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1 hour ago, HeatAndRun said:

How about making shadow duelist invincible?

(Is this a bit excessive?) :ambivalence:

Yes.. because then they would never die, and other players couldn’t kill them in PvP. But I do suppose that other players can’t kill Wurts Army when she Arms them with gear (yes you can actually do that..) 

Thats What Maxwells shadows are missing and I think Klei knows it- Maxwell is supposed to be the former puppet master.. and yet all he Knows how to summon are a few weak clones of himself to mine resources and fight for him- He is essentially in my opinion... a Less Interesting version of Wurt.

That is a slight exaggeration because Obviously Maxwell is better at gathering resources than a Merm Army, Doesn’t change the fact that a former king of the shadows should have more shadow constructs... Possibly even extending to being able to craft and equip his shadow fighters with “Shadow Armor” so you know they aren’t “invincible...” but they ARE Harder to kill with the extra effort put into upgrading them.

Ahem, Abigail & Ectoherbology potions ;) 

Another thing he needs is to be able to access his book without having to drop it on the ground, like an actual animation of standing and holding it open in his hands..

But outside of that- I don’t really know what to do to make him have fun interesting Team based perks like Abigails cool new petal Bestowment buff and Wendy’s Sanity giving Sisturn.

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8 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

.

İt's really cool ideas. It's would be very great to using magic tab more when using Maxwell. Also it's make sense, he have unlimited potential to craft shadow puppets but he just do few. But he really would need a downside after an update like this. Maybe he could be get attack faster by Charlie? The opposite of Winona.

10 hours ago, smelly catcoon said:

or damage while at low sanity

Or klei can make sanity more dangerous mechanic.

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12 hours ago, Kharn_Betrayer said:

Also one idea i seen somewhere here about duelists - adding them a feature of acting similar to Klaus Deers, with synchronization between them and copying Maxwell moves.

That would add so much to their utility, as well as reward a good Maxwell player who knows how to kite properly. I'd even make them have the same HP as Maxwell all the time, so that when Maxwell is taking damage, they take too (and vice versa) so there shouldn't be a big problem in PvP. I know this one wouldn't exactly fit in Maxwell's puppet master fantasy (as you have to take part in the battle, instead of using your pawns to do so for you), but on the other hand, as much as he would love to see himself as a former king of this world, Cyclum puzzles have already shown he does not have much power there anymore. Heck, I'd love to hear him complain when taking damage whilst having his duelists beside him.

Also an interesting idea would be for duelists to be made of different weapons - the further you advance in the game, the more powerful you are (with all the drawbacks, like sanity drain - imagine double or triple the sanity drain on double/triple dark sword Maxwell with only 60 sanity, makes you think twice). The downside is still your hp and how well do YOU manage = giving the player a lot of agency.

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11 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i like a lot of this ideas but codex umbra should be a unique book. Maxwell found it, he doesnt know nothing about it before he found it, like necronomicon in lovecraft books, so being able to craft a new one doesnt fit in the lore imo

Well he has the possibility to craft new ones already in his shadow tab, so the game currently hints us that he already knows how to re-summon a codex.

Lore wise, I think of the upgrade proposal, not like just making a new codex, but more like imbuing it with new knowledge, or unlocking new hidden knowledge from it at shadow manipulator and at ancient pseudoscience.

For gameplay mechanics, you'd take the basic codex and upgrade it to an "improved version". Their cover and maybe the floaty animation would have to look a bit different, but this is mostly to be "game friendly" so we know which one is which. Lore wise it doesnt even have to look different.

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