Airlocks: we don't need a complete building- just better tools/system

[Moonkis]

1 hour ago, nakomaru said:

This is really a matter of personal intuition I think.

Only until the devs actually speak up about it

Yes Waterlocks exists in real life, but it's an incredibly weak bad faith argument considering the same people will turn around and tell you "It's how ONI physics work". You can't cut it both ways, you can't use realism to prove your point then turncoat and use the fact that it's a game to cover the flaws of said point. I mean you can, but you would undermine your original argument.

[goboking]

17 minutes ago, Moonkis said:

Only until the devs actually speak up about it

Yes Waterlocks exists in real life, but it's an incredibly weak bad faith argument considering the same people will turn around and tell you "It's how ONI physics work". You can't cut it both ways, you can't use realism to prove your point then turncoat and use the fact that it's a game to cover the flaws of said point. I mean you can, but you would undermine your original argument.

"the principle is the same" =/= "the physics are the same"

[Loscil2]

12 hours ago, dearmad said:

And the waterlock thing should be done away with. Completely. It's so cheesy and gamey.

Well inherently liquids and gasses are two different elements in the core engine of the game, so makes sense that water creates a barrier between two different atmospheres. A waterlock isn't that reliable as well. For example: if a duplicant happens to pass the lock with VERY hot igneous rock it will potentially boil away water in either atmosphere, very annoying if you want to keep vacuums. On a related note: if you play in rime you'll probably freeze away the waterlocks if not careful.

2 hours ago, Radam said:

Perfect airlock without using waterlock? Transit tubes...

Completely forgot about those! Although they require energy and plastic.

[Yunru]

1 hour ago, CannedSmeef said:

Yet another expensive, powerhungry solution.  Except this one can't even be used until you have a bunch of plastic and a strong source of power.

I mean, what do you expect your fantasy airlock to require? Dirt?

1 hour ago, CannedSmeef said:

Yet another expensive, powerhungry solution.  Except this one can't even be used until you have a bunch of plastic and a strong source of power.

I mean, what do you expect your fantasy airlock to require? Dirt?

[nakomaru]

2 hours ago, Moonkis said:

Only until the devs actually speak up about it

Yes Waterlocks exists in real life, but it's an incredibly weak bad faith argument considering the same people will turn around and tell you "It's how ONI physics work". You can't cut it both ways, you can't use realism to prove your point then turncoat and use the fact that it's a game to cover the flaws of said point. I mean you can, but you would undermine your original argument.

Know what's an incredibly weak, bad faith argument? Talking about "the sorts of people who would make such an argument" instead of any sort of actual engagement.

Until the devs speak directly about it, we do have the next best thing: the actual state of the game from conception until now, for more than two years uninterrupted. And that is one of a tile-physics created by them which allows for liquid locks. And one where when it became popular to do so, they responded by adding a new material specifically for this purpose. Opposition to how the game has always worked is a completely valid, but personally held view. Just like agreement with how it is designed is.

[Moah]

I vote 4 real working airlocks!

Powered mechaniced airlocks should work.

It was really annoying when i discovered that they dont work as i expected. And after 1700h ingame its still annoying!

[Nebbie]

In my opinion, the massive problems that get introduced by gases not being able to push liquids aside or dissolve into and back out of them aren't worth it just to have a most-of-the-time airlock instead of something dedicated. At the very least, pump-based airlocks should be a bit easier to build.

[Yunru]

8 minutes ago, Nebbie said:

the massive problems that get introduced by gases not being able to push liquids aside or dissolve into and back out of them

Massive problems?

What massive problems?

[CannedSmeef]

1 hour ago, Yunru said:

I mean, what do you expect your fantasy airlock to require? Dirt?

No, I want it to be made out of muckroot

[Asteru]

Personally, I’m a fan of just the mechanized airlock not passing gas through, like a real airlock, but only when it opens and has power. Power goes out, and your dupe runs through, so will the gas. Only way to not is to maintain power for the door. Give a bigger reason to power them and can be used situationally then over the mechanical airlocks. 

[nakomaru]

10 minutes ago, Asteru said:

I’m a fan of just the mechanized airlock not passing gas through, like a real airlock, but only when it opens and has power.

With kind regards, a real airlock works just like Yunru's checkpoint airlock design:

I don't know what you are imagining, but an open door does very little to stop the flow of gas in the real world, powered or not.

[dearmad]

15 hours ago, goboking said:

The same principle is used to keep sewer gas from blowing into your bathroom.

People walk through this in buildings all the time in real life? That is the point, they don't. It's a dumb way to to seal a base with dupes walking around- it is an unintentional fluke of the game physics that ruins a lot of other intentional systems. Period. Blech. I get the physics behind a real water seal, and people don't walk through vertical ones. Anywhere.

[Hedning]

I think oni is about building solutions with the tools we are given even if it's not their obvious purpose. I like the water lock for this reason. Another example is the gas filter. I hate the prebuilt one. It is much more fun to use bridges and shutoff valves.

[Yunru]

23 minutes ago, dearmad said:

People walk through this in buildings all the time in real life? That is the point, they don't. It's a dumb way to to seal a base with dupes walking around- it is an unintentional fluke of the game physics that ruins a lot of other intentional systems. Period. Blech. I get the physics behind a real water seal, and people don't walk through vertical ones. Anywhere.

They could swim through it though, if scaled up, and often do when exploring caves below sea level.

So...

[miauly]

25 minutes ago, dearmad said:

it is an unintentional fluke of the game physics that ruins a lot of other intentional systems

Even in completely normal physics liquid lock would work if scaled up. Something like three-tile deep and wide pool with two ladders on sides and the separating wall going one tile into the pool in the middle is realistic. Given that alternatives are pumps that mess up gases and need pressure control, or sophisticated automation in three door setups - even if the most common airlock design with steps will stop working, I bet that pool-looking locks will still be used unless something new will be implemented by devs.

[607581_1452789984]

In the meantime, I've logged a bug for at least renaming the current misnamed "Airlock" (really a sealing door) so people who understand what an airlock actually is won't be misled and frustrated. Come vote for it and see if that helps.

 

[Yunru]

4 minutes ago, 607581_1452789984 said:

In the meantime, I've logged a bug for at least renaming the current misnamed "Airlock" (really a sealing door) so people who understand what an airlock actually is won't be misled and frustrated. Come vote for it and see if that helps.

 

I mean, it is an airlock door. You just have to actually build the rest of the airlock too.

But given that it doesn't actually say door in the name, you have a point.

[mathmanican]

1 hour ago, CannedSmeef said:

No, I want it to be made out of muckroot

Oh no. I ate all my muckroot. It's not renewable. Maybe I can farm it from a planet.

[chromiumboy]

I made a mod that stops gases passing open airlock doors. I didn't find making waterlocks or more complex contraptions interesting anymore. I just wanted a convenient solution for gas separation so I could focus on other, more interesting aspects of my ONI projects. Since posting that mod I've had no small amount of comments on it arguing that it isn't realistic, that it makes the game too easy, that it's the intent of the developers that there be no trival solution to the problems we face. And yet waterlocks are all these things...

 

[mathmanican]

16 minutes ago, chromiumboy said:

I didn't find making waterlocks or more complex contraptions interesting anymore. I just wanted a convenient solution for gas separation so I could focus on other, more interesting aspects of my ONI projects.

Thank you for this. It describes exactly what I look for in mods as well.

[DreamApart]

21 hours ago, goboking said:

The same principle is used to keep sewer gas from blowing into your bathroom.

Well... imagine when currently there's 1 ton of air in the bottom side, while the other side is vacuum.

And the next second.... ummmmm...

[mathmanican]

23 minutes ago, DreamApart said:

imagine when currently there's 1 ton of air in the bottom side, while the other side is vacuum.

I"m trying to, but the lack of oxygen on my side is making it hard to think.

[Le0n1des]

On a more serious note, many of the "unrealistic" quirks (such as the 30gr liquid airlock) arise from the decision to have a single element per tile and abolish the whole notion of pressure and approximating pressure effects via mass only... On the other hand - the game is already quite CPU intensive, and making it calculate PV=nRT per tile, per tick, per element (if partial pressure is implemented) would require a super computer, which we can safely assume the majority of the players don't have

[DemainaNyx]

44 minutes ago, Le0n1des said:

On a more serious note, many of the "unrealistic" quirks (such as the 30gr liquid airlock) arise from the decision to have a single element per tile and abolish the whole notion of pressure and approximating pressure effects via mass only... On the other hand - the game is already quite CPU intensive, and making it calculate PV=nRT per tile, per tick, per element (if partial pressure is implemented) would require a super computer, which we can safely assume the majority of the players don't have

Well said.  I pointed out before how in a real world example we sanitize everything because we cannot see the germs, whereas in this game our dupes know exactly which rungs on the ladder to disinfect and which not to.  Some things we just have to accept because of limitations despite how strange they might seem.

[Mullematsch]

Isn't the main issue with using airlocks with pumps and logic (open doors if vacuum) that they break pathfinding? If that would be fixed and duplicants would wait in front of the airlocks instead of dropping their stuff and doing something else, I would use them.