So, what to do about heat now?

[KittenIsAGeek]

1 minute ago, Greybear said:

 I feel okay with the wheezeworts - they magical creatures, which is much better than magical machines (mechanical engineering student ). I'm also okay with the ice machines deleting some heat, my main problem seems to be with something that feels like an exploit (the water sieve cooling loop I keep running into just feels wrong to me). I don't think I'll use this trick either, but there does seem to be a lot of options now I realize the steam turbine can turn the heat into electricity via the aquatuners (if I understood that correctly).

I actually use the sieve to create heat.  In my last base, my plumbing system used cool water (piped through granite pipes) to both cool my base and feed into sinks, latrines and showers.  This resulted in cold polluted water going into a sieve.  It would come out at 40c, go through two aquatuners, and loop back into the base at 8c.

[Greybear]

 

 

 

 

 

4

Just now, OxCD said:

Those machines have fixed output, whether you like it or not. If you're not using this as an advantage, then it will turn against you. With the sieve for example, if you input 60°C pW, you're using this feature at your advantage. If you input pW at 20°C then this feature will go against you. If want to be clean with this feature, making it as flat as you apparently wish, you should input 40°C pW. Then good luck for t° management, and moreover, for all other machines using fixed output.

To each his own. I don't play to maximize efficiency, I play to have fun.

[OxCD]

So because we optimize our systems, we don't have fun ?

Well, have fun with your water sieve heating up your pH2O.

[Greybear]

1 minute ago, OxCD said:

So because with optimize our systems, we don't have fun ?

Well, have fun with your water sieve heating up your pH2O.

That's not what I said, and not what I meant. "To each his own" - you can have fun in any way you like, just as I do. Wauw people in this forum are hostile...

[OxCD]

15 minutes ago, Greybear said:

That's not what I said, and not what I meant. "To each his own" - you can have fun in any way you like, just as I do. Wauw people in this forum are hostile...

What I mean is if you really want to do not use the mechanism of cooling using the fixed output t°, then you have to take care that input is equal or lower than output t°. 

I keep thinking it doesn't make any sense. Do not abuse something avoidable, in a good or in a bad way, I fully agree. As an example I'm not using any liquid or gas compression glitch. It goes over my playstyle, and i CAN avoid it. No benefit, no collateral damage, keep doing like it doesn't exist. But the WS for example again, you're using it. And it does change the t° anyway. So if it's not in your way, it's against.

 

Also, my bad for last post, I probably overreacted, as I'm not able to understand your position on this subject.

[Rebrait]

All the Oni machines are "magic"!! Aquatuners just transfer heat in a 100% efficiency, ice makers use Eletricity to deleat heat...

The steam turbine is the best option right now to deal with the heat, but need some mid game things(steal)

in the early game the best option is to make the heat go out your base, you can use a cooling loop to a ice biome, a ice fan to melt the ice, or a thermo regulator in a pool of water(just use mesh tiles and put the thermo in the upper tile of water)

[Glassyfo]

1 hour ago, Coolthulhu said:

Dupes feel comfy in pleasantly chilly 60C

!!! What?

[Coolthulhu]

1 minute ago, bleeter6 said:

!!! What?

Oxygen and friends all have low enough thermal conductivity that dupes do not get warmed up by it. It only becomes dangerous above 70C when it starts dealing damage directly, but then you have bigger problems than heat stroke anyway.

[abud]

In the previous playthrough (around cosmic update), I decided to play without water sieves and use gulp fish instead. In that playthrough I use tons of pincha and fertilizer maker to eat hot PW. Not sure if that's still doable now.

[Wintersdark]

6 hours ago, Greybear said:

So, the new seeds (currently playing terra) seem to have way less cold biomes and wheezeworts. I don't mind that too much, except for the fact I don't really know how to handle heat without them. Should I just move it away to somewhere and seal that area off? I really don't want to use exploits with fixed temperature machines - not really my style. Although the developers seem to push us in that direction...

Rust biomes (at least the ones I've found) tend to be pretty cool, and Verdant and Arboreal worlds in general are much cooler overall.  Rime, obviously, is very cold.  So heat is a much less pressing concern early.  

Once you get a steam turbine, heat is really easy to manage.

Ice machines still work, though they're not as good as they were - they still delete some heat (20%) but otherwise just move it.

To be honest, I'm kind of confused about your whole line of reasoning here.  Calling fixed heat machines exploits but preferring to use plants that just eat heat?  If anything, those fixed heat machines are less exploitive as they have power and resource costs, whereas wheezeworts just magically delete heat.  If you  want to go with a "non-exploits" like that, then all heat management is going to be moving heat; that's just how it works.  Best to heat a gas or liquid and vent it into space. 

[Promethien]

The ice machine is available early and you don't have to use conveyors as is being described. Its more dupe labor but just put storages set to take ice in a pool of water. Use water for cooling. Goal achieved. 

[beowulf2010]

Ice sculptures and temp-shift plates made of ice seem to usually work better than storage containers. Though with 20kg blocks, this may change. 

[bobucles]

There are mods to remove the water sieve's fixed output temperature. It's a mixed bag because it protects precious cool water in the early game, while it removes a powerful heat deletion option towards the late game.

[EnderCN]

9 hours ago, Greybear said:

 I really don't want to use exploits with fixed temperature machines - not really my style. Although the developers seem to push us in that direction...

These are not exploits, these are game mechanics.  Trying to call fixed temperature machines an exploit is just downright silly.  It is how the developers decided to make the game.  They are a boon and a curse, you can't use cold water in an electrolyzer to cool your base as an example.  The basic game mechanics make manipulating temperature too easy so they had to make certain buildings fixed temperature to avoid exploits.  What you are calling an exploit exists to avoid actual much more serious exploits, you have this completely backwards.

[pacovf]

Different people have different opinions about heat management in ONI, and what does and what doesn’t constitute an exploit. This discussion happens very often in this forum, and nobody ever convinces anyone of anything.

So please, don’t fight the OP on his opinions. Either offer alternative solutions, or skip this thread.

[EnderCN]

14 minutes ago, pacovf said:

Different people haven’t different opinions about heat management in ONI, and what does and what doesn’t constitute an exploit. This discussion happens very often in this forum, and nobody ever convinces anyone of anything.

So please, don’t fight the OP on his opinions. Either offer alternative solutions, or skip this thread.

This is a fair point but the opinions expressed are not based in actual reality.  The purpose of this mechanic is not just to allow heat deletion, it is just as much about making it harder to ignore heat by using cold sources to cool everything down.  Without these devices a cool slush geyser would make the game about as easy mode as you can get as an example.  Removing heat deleting devices from the game would probably make it easier not harder, calling this an exploit is being naive.

[Promethien]

24 minutes ago, EnderCN said:

This is a fair point but the opinions expressed are not based in actual reality.  The purpose of this mechanic is not just to allow heat deletion, it is just as much about making it harder to ignore heat by using cold sources to cool everything down.  Without these devices a cool slush geyser would make the game about as easy mode as you can get as an example.  Removing heat deleting devices from the game would probably make it easier not harder, calling this an exploit is being naive.

If the OP's reasoning was that he doesn't want to use hot inputs on fixed temp outputs to deliberately increase his personal challenge would you have the same objection? The end effect is the same.

[metallichydra]

there's a difference between using a water sieve for sieving water, and using a water sieve to cool down your base, while sieving water.

OP seem to have problems with heat, but he doesnt want to heat up water, then sieve it, as it seem like an exploit to him. this does not mean he cannot use a sieve, or want the water to be exactly 40^o when sieving it.

[RichTBiscuit]

1 hour ago, EnderCN said:

These are not exploits, these are game mechanics.  Trying to call fixed temperature machines an exploit is just downright silly.  It is how the developers decided to make the game.  They are a boon and a curse, you can't use cold water in an electrolyzer to cool your base as an example.  The basic game mechanics make manipulating temperature too easy so they had to make certain buildings fixed temperature to avoid exploits.  What you are calling an exploit exists to avoid actual much more serious exploits, you have this completely backwards.

People call it an exploit because it APPEARS to be an exploit. They've gone through all the effort of making a full realistic scientific heat system, it seems incredibly strange to ignore the first rule of thermodynamics without good reason in a game that's inspired by real science stuff.

Just because you call it a feature it doesn't mean that the water sieve deleting heat is suddenly a dev approved anti exploit feature, most people would call that a placeholder at best. Like why the water sieve? or electrolyzer? They have very little to do with heat other than the heat the processes themselves generate.

I mean it's fine that the ice machine deletes heat, I guess... because you expect it do something regarding heat. I don't think "making ice!" is exactly cool pseudoscience. The result of which is similar to a OP wheezewort that needs power and supply. I'm not really sure why the cool organic alien version of pseudoscience deleting heat is nerfed while the rather mundane ice machine is made OP enough to cool a gyzer with about 5 of them. That said actually using the ice machine is considerably more involved.

I suppose that's besides the point lol, ice maker makes way more sense than water sieves for deleting heat. If you insist on this "anti-exploit" theory devs could simply transfer some of the heat generated from the various process to the outputs. It's harder to suspend your disbelief and become immersed when the game applies nonsensical rules for no apparent reason.

I would suggest ice making machine to the OP, it appears to be the dev approved heat deletion method and it is quite strong. Requires a little setup and understanding too

[KittenIsAGeek]

For all the complaints about the change to wheezewarts... they seem to do just fine keeping my super computer from overheating.  It'll get hot while the research is going, but  cools back down soon enough.

Spoiler

The farm tile is made out of dirt, which is a good buffer element.  It has a very high SHC (1.480 DTU/g) compared to the phosporite (0.150 DTU/g) so the small amount of phosporite that is used quickly drops to the temperature of the farm tile.

[bobucles]

4 hours ago, RichTBiscuit said:

People call it an exploit because it APPEARS to be an exploit. 

Pretty much this. Fixed temperature output is a mechanic that is absolutely non intuitive and very poorly explained in game. There also isn't much reason to justify it. Colonies HAVE heat deletion options. They've existed for quite a while now. If they aren't adequate to cooling a colony, then the heat deleters are the problem.

Mods can allow matching temperature output so clearly 40C cheat water has nothing to do with the game engine. Matching temperature is certainly possible. Adding or subtracting a fixed quantity of heat to the output is also possible, just match the temperature and add or subtract a number.

I'd prefer the water sieve to push the water output temperature towards the filtration medium temperature. It represents the sand exchanging heat with the water and it does good things for game balance:

- It makes early game easier, by letting cool starter sand provide cool starting water.

- Warm caustic sand is 40C, so midgame water gets pushed towards 40C. Absolutely no change here.

- It makes late game much harder, by making hot regolith boil your polluted water

Anything that creates a gentler early game and more difficult late game is always good IMO. It helps guide new players in, and provides more challenge and prestige to long standing colonies.

 

 

[Sasza22]

Fixed temperature outputs are just overpowered when compared to other cooling options. That`s all. Why do people call wheezeworts and AETN useless? Beacause compared to a fixed output water sieve they are useless. That`s why people view it as an exploit.

It`s a part of the game and most likely won`t change. It`s a personal decision to use it or not. As for other options we still can dump heat into space, use steam turbines or just build our heat generating machines away from your farms and insulate stuff.

[EnderCN]

 

What I would suggest is they leave them like they are but change the supply requirements according to how much they are removing.  So running 120 degree F water through a sieve would cost more sand than running 80.  This would limit them in some way without making the game way too easy which just removing the feature would do on some maps.

[Xuhybrid]

5 hours ago, RichTBiscuit said:

People call it an exploit because it APPEARS to be an exploit. They've gone through all the effort of making a full realistic scientific heat system, it seems incredibly strange to ignore the first rule of thermodynamics without good reason in a game that's inspired by real science stuff.

Just because you call it a feature it doesn't mean that the water sieve deleting heat is suddenly a dev approved anti exploit feature, most people would call that a placeholder at best. Like why the water sieve? or electrolyzer? They have very little to do with heat other than the heat the processes themselves generate.

I mean it's fine that the ice machine deletes heat, I guess... because you expect it do something regarding heat. I don't think "making ice!" is exactly cool pseudoscience. The result of which is similar to a OP wheezewort that needs power and supply. I'm not really sure why the cool organic alien version of pseudoscience deleting heat is nerfed while the rather mundane ice machine is made OP enough to cool a gyzer with about 5 of them. That said actually using the ice machine is considerably more involved.

I suppose that's besides the point lol, ice maker makes way more sense than water sieves for deleting heat. If you insist on this "anti-exploit" theory devs could simply transfer some of the heat generated from the various process to the outputs. It's harder to suspend your disbelief and become immersed when the game applies nonsensical rules for no apparent reason.

I would suggest ice making machine to the OP, it appears to be the dev approved heat deletion method and it is quite strong. Requires a little setup and understanding too

I would be all for making electrolyzers output at the temperature of the water. That way you don't get heat death early and you can't abuse steam geysers without cooling your water first. Water sieve shouldn't change the temperature either, logically speaking. It's another one of those early heat death mechanics, just like the electrolyzer. The devs intentionally ignore realism and physics just to make early game more difficult.

[Moonshade]

in case of electrolyzers you destroy heat energy since. the thermal capacity of water is way higher then oxygen and hydrogen. I wouldn't want a base where heat energy is retained converting water into hydrogen and oxygen, though on the other hand it might give some interesting setups to cool the stuff before use.

if you guys wanna have all the numbers add up