NeddoFreddo Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Back again with another rant (yay), this time discussing Don't Starve's infamous insanity mechanic, and how it doesn't provide enough of a challenge to players, especially because of how powerful it's rewards are. Same as last time, I am posting this because I want to get feedback that isn't from a YouTube comments section, as sometimes it can get a bit bandwagon-y in that kind of environment. Thanks, and remember, this is all just my opinion, so feel free to agree/disagree as you please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinister_Fang Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 I do agree that insanity needs to be more difficult then it is currently, however a lot of it's difficulty comes from being insane as bad times. Imagine having to deal with deerclops, hounds, shadow monkeys, whatever... then suddenly a massive difficulty spike occurs because your sanity got too low. You have shadows everywhere on top of being chased, then suddenly you get a headache and take a lot of forced damage. This would be incredibly infuriating. So instead of just outright increasing difficulty all together, I feel like the difficulty should ramp up based on the frequency of killing shadows similar to how naughtiness works. Or it could ramp up based on the amount of time you're insane. This way it won't outright kill you when you're already in a chaotic situation. (Also, crippling headaches seems like a bad idea as it feels like it's just forced damage, even if it's done indirectly.) In addition to increased difficulty, I feel like insanity should have more side effects. Right now it feels like the only thing it does is change rabbits and bunnymen. Of course it effects obelisks as well, but those are extremely rare outside of the atrium. I can't think of anything off the top of my head at the moment, but it should effect the world (or more specifically: the player's view of the world) in more ways then just this. And as a last little side note that gets a bit off topic: I'm not so sure the shadow pieces could be classified as being one of Them. At least, no more so then Maxwell's puppets or shadow monkeys are. A unique trait that terrorbeaks, crawling horrors, Mr. Skits, Watchers, ect. share is their complete intangibility from everything except an insane player. The shadow pieces can be seen regardless of sanity state, and even interacted with by pigs and bunnymen. They seem to be more like shadow constructs then truly being apart of Them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CossonWool Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 I'm unsure how to give feedback about this... do you want feedback about the video specifically? or do you want to discuss the topic mentioned? If it's discussion, do you want it to be about why being insane should be harder, or do you want it to be about the mechanic as a whole; including things like "item X is op and takes nightmare fuel to make"? Sorry if the answer to that is obvious.. It's kinda late for me so might have glossed over it >.< On the topic of should being insane be harder; I don't think so. Being insane kills new players almost without exception, and it's only once people learn to kite them that it becomes easy. So being insane is either too hard, or too easy. Everyone goes through the stage of it being too hard regardless of their current skill, but only people that play for hundreds of hours get to the point they never have to worry about it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minespatch Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Interesting video. Never thought about the idea of removing sanity but since the environment already gives cues, I can understand your mindset as to why it needs to be removed. I really would love lore on Mr. Skits. He could use exploration as much as Inn Keeper. The multiple shadow weaver stuff is pretty creepy. I remember how creeped out I was when Instant Noodles posted it in one of his data dumps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
35cap3 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 2 hours ago, NeddoFreddo said: Just add Willow ridiculous freezing mechanic on top, if you are bored with simple nightmare terrors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MostMerryTomcat Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 The big question (outside of Reddit I reckon) is: how insanity impacts the WHOLE game-player base?! (aka the vast 70-80% majority of casuals and what do they usually say about DS/T as difficulty - or this particular type of difficulty - goes) And an adjacent question for you this time: how frequently do you play pubs, like the Klei Official servers ones? (not community servers, those tend to attract more mid-advanced players sometimes going even past 50%-and-beyond threshold) From my experience being insane for casuals usually means certain death. Also as previous posters underlined, the insanity mechanic becomes a problem in cumulative conjunctures. 2-3 shadow creatures alone are indeed easy to handle by mid-advanced players. More than that plus other factors like various alternating enemies and/or hazardous environmental conditions easily can do anyone in. Personally am for just one thing: we need more variety of true nightmare creatures (yet not in the vein of derivative ones like Shadow Pieces). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szczuku Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 How about creating annoying shadow creatures rathar than dangerous. Those would only exist by player's insanity and not nightmare cycle. Spoiler Something like this (yes this is a paint drawing): human looking with long arms and fingers moving like it's ready to pull out a gun in wild west durring high noon. As I said this creature would be purely an annoyance. For example: -when insane and player starts cooking something there'd be a chance for its arms to come out of the ground (similar to entering adventure mode in singleplayer) and if not stopped by walking near/attacking it, this shadow creature would mess with crock pot and result in it making wet goop from whatever was cooking. -when insane and near some hostile mobs this creature could appear do an aniamtion of like whistling or pointing at the player. After that all those aggresive creatures could aggro on the player even if they normally wouldn't. -when riding a beefalo insane this creature would appear and jumscare the beefalo making it throw the player off itself -when near trees it could maybe appear near one and start messing with it and if not stopped it'd spawn a treeguard or pertify it. -instead of terrorbeak's or crawiling horror's faint roaring it'd produce a shadowy snickering. You know, it'd be very clear that this creature is having fun and not going to stop soon. -It'd have a lot of idle aniamtions such as hiding behind objects if player is facing it, taunting the player or interacting with structures (leaning over alchemy engine, watching itself in moon dial) There'd be no possible reward from it's existance and this would be the true downside of being insane- if you want to farm nightmare fuel then prepare for this annoyence to follow you everywhere. And b4 anyone says "Shadow creatures can't interact with outside world". Shadow hands. They can put your fires out. Pretty sure that counts as interacting with outside world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minespatch Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 23 minutes ago, Szczuku said: How about creating annoying sahdow creatures rathar than dangerous. Disney had these in Princess and the Frog. Maybe something similar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sicko Hog Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 In my opinion, having a mod that displays mob health kind of invalidates what you have to say here. As Sinister Fang said, a lot of insanity's difficulty comes from being insane at bad times. If you're starting to go insane during a normal fight with Deerclops, then you'll need to be cautious and maybe even back off to get your sanity up. You don't really know how far into the fight you are unless you're counting hits or watching weapon durability If you can see that Deerclops is at exactly 500 health, you can just keep attacking because you know you'll kill him before any shadows can spawn. Of course insanity doesn't seem like a problem if it can never catch you off guard during a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinister_Fang Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 35 minutes ago, Szczuku said: -snip- I think that would be really neat. I like the idea of a shadow that's not directly hostile, but simply harasses the player instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gagarin-ace Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 meh, i m low lvl player, and lost sanity is similar to death for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neu7ral Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 I would like that insanity effects interact with the player and the character. Eternal Darkness somewhat plays well with the players, but that's a horror game, however, in survival games those kind of effects can be replicated by creating confusion or/and punishing the players memory - Creating fake stuffs like science machines, campfires, and any structure that (is near/has been destroyed/got burnt) confusing the player if that is a real object, upon trying to craft in a science machine it wont work and the character and the player will realize the science machine was just an illusion. - The meters would apparent having high health/hunger (but when you hover you realize you have less health/hunger that you actually thought you had) - Items appears in your inventory but not being actually there, having free space will replicate any weapon or armor you crafted, any item with durability will appear with less or more durability, example, having a 11% fueled miner hat, but actually having 47%, causing the player to get confused, fresh food that is actually spoiled or spoiled food that is actually fresh, or another example having two spears but you actually crafted one, having more or less food that you currently have, well, I think you got it, making hallucinations more real. - Hallucinate status effects like starving, overheat, freezeing. - During hound or some enemies like spiders that appears out screen or appears inside of some struccture (spiders) spawns some of them that are actually real, whenever you hit them they despawn. - Hearing false hound/worm attacks or any giant attacks (character may announce it too) - The sound getting muted slowly (being unable to hear things close of you) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viktor234 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Field Field said: If you're starting to go insane during a normal fight with Deerclops, then you'll need to be cautious and maybe even back off to get your sanity up. You don't really know how far into the fight you are unless you're counting hits or watching weapon durability That's one of a few moments when Bernie is really useful: Just drop him nearby and all the Shadow Creatures will focus Bernie till he takes 1000 damage, using 1/5 of a Sewing Kit restores him completely. No "being insane at bad times" with Willow! (Except during "Stalker" 's mind control) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auth Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 I would like to just throw in my own bit due to others talking, but I, and I know probably thousands of others, hate things that serve only to annoy players. The thought process of "Well it's just annoying, not hard" is what gets us such controversial additions like disease, gnats in hamlet, splumonkeys, and other things. Are any of these things hard to deal with? No. Are they obnoxious and make literally everyone groan when they're affected by it? Yes. Just be careful what you wish for... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Kourosh Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 3 hours ago, Szczuku said: How about creating annoying shadow creatures rathar than dangerous. Those would only exist by player's insanity and not nightmare cycle. Reveal hidden contents Quite interesting! an annoying shadow creature he comes out of holes for example rabbit holes and starts making eerie noises thus really annoying the player Spoiler and then suddenly : Spoiler 3 hours ago, Szczuku said: -when insane and player starts cooking something there'd be a chance for its arms to come out of the ground (similar to entering adventure mode in singleplayer) and if not stopped by walking near/attacking it, this shadow creature would mess with crock pot and result in it making wet goop from whatever was cooking. Spoiler and heres my own idea! Spoiler very nice ideas Szczuku! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopy Ouroboros Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 I'm willing to advocate for a change to the sanity mechanic just as much as the next guy, but I don't think it should be so needlessly complicated to the point where it clashes with the simplicity of the neighboring health and hunger gauges. Though, I think a reasonable proposal would be as you enter the insanity threshold, and stay insane for long enough, the nightmare creatures would increasingly grow more aggressive (i.e. not prone to predictable bouts of taunting), and swarm you with steadily growing numbers. Perhaps directly fighting the creatures would in addition also drive up the "heat" quicker, as to make nightmare fuel farming a bit riskier in nature and therefore making sanity management something to be respected and not taken for granted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szczuku Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 38 minutes ago, Auth said: (snip) Well the thing is that different players may find different things annoying. For example some1 could say "Hounds attacks are annoying" "Beefalo in heat are annoying" "Lureplants are annoying" "Batilisk coming from open sinkholes are annoying" There's the difference between "good" annoyance and a "bad" annoyence So just in case your post was hinting towards mine I want to say: I think my idea would be a good annoyance as it wouldn't really have the possiblity of dmging the player unlike op's idea of a headache stun. As Fang said it'd be more of a harrasement to make your life harder. And most importantly. That creature would only appear when your sanity is low, so keeping yourself sane would prevent this annoyance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finx Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Everytime I think of sanity as a whole I always end up comparing it with the stress mechanic from Darkest Dungeon. I will briefly explain this mechanic for those who haven't played the game. During a dungeon your party member can accumulate stress from various sources like stress attack, getting crit, walking on a trap, etc. When your stress reach a certain level on a character their resolve is tested and he/she will be afflicted or virtuous. Most of the time he will become afflicted which will make your character sometime act on his own. A masochistic will refuse heal or attack his teammate, a selfish one will pass his turn, etc. Also affliction debuff most of your stat. After getting afflicted if this character accumulate even more stress he get instakill by heart attack. If you are very lucky your dude will become virtuous which give a temporary buff to him. Powerful makes your guy do more damage, vigorous give a buff of speed and dodge. The risk and reward of getting affliction/virtue being very low to none makes stress as a whole very bad. My wall of text now leads me to sanity or more specificly insanity from Don't Starve which is like said previously by other very rewarding. Most of the best item in the game require you to be insane to gather nightmare fuel to craft them. But as long as you don't put yourself in a bad situation the danger of insanity is very minimal plus it even allow you to skip gathering ressource to refill your sanity which save you time that you can spend doing other stuff. I personally think that Darkest Dungeon did a great job with stress to make it a very bad thing for your character so maybe if sanity had some property of the stress mechanic it would makes you think twice before going insane. Maybe when you are insane cooking on crockpot the food could have a chance to turn into goop. The character could refuse to eat a specific food. Etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Cups Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 As someone who gets actual migraines I find the suggestion that it slows you down bizarre. All of these suggestions won't really change much for advanced players. It'll screw over people just learning about the game, but insanity already does that, so there's not going to be any real difference here. You guys need to keep in mind most people who play aren't the type to solo Toadstool. If a major complaint about insanity is that nightmare fuel is OP then why not give the endgame items themselves severe drawbacks instead of punishing newbies? It would even be in line with the lore of abusing nightmare fuel bringing ruin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finx Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 37 minutes ago, Xehanightmare said: If a major complaint about insanity is that nightmare fuel is OP then why not give the endgame items themselves severe drawbacks instead of punishing newbies? It would even be in line with the lore of abusing nightmare fuel bringing ruin. Most of the item that are craftable with nightmare fuel doesn't need a nerf because plenty of item that doesn't use nightmare fuel are even with them in term of power. In the weapon category you should never craft a thulecite club over a dark sword because the dark sword have better damage per hit and is way cheaper to craft. The real competitor to the dark sword is the ham bat because of the unlimited durability and its super cheap to craft. I think its safe to say that the ham bat is at the current state of the game the most efficient weapon even if it does less damage over a dark sword. For armor slot category the 2 main nightmare fuel item use are the magiluminescense and bone armor. In battle they are equal so you will choose more base of preference but the magiluminescense is superior utility wise. In that same slot you can equip one of the most beloved item in the game the krampus sack which most people prefer over the 2 previous item. Last but not least in the head slot category you have the thulecite crown which is basically the best armor in the game but thulecite can be scarce until you clear the ruin a few time so football helmet or even battle helmet are more often use because they are cheap plus they absorb 80% of damage which is already alot. Balancing item from a lore perspective when the lore of the game is vague if not lacking to say the least is... not a great idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majestix Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 In summary, this is yet another one of these "Damn, I have now become too good at the game, it is clearly time to make it harder" theads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szczuku Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 2 hours ago, Majestix said: In summary, this is yet another one of these "Damn, I have now become too good at the game, it is clearly time to make it harder" theads. Well yeah. Game should also be fun for people that are experienced at it. The best way to make game harder without "discourging" noobs from playing it (but let's be real here 95% of new players watch tutorials) would be to add hard mode. And I mean a proper hard mode not changing the numbers of mobs from defaul to more and lots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Cups Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 8 hours ago, Szczuku said: The best way to make game harder without "discourging" noobs from playing it (but let's be real here 95% of new players watch tutorials) would be to add hard mode. And I mean a proper hard mode not changing the numbers of mobs from defaul to more and lots There's always mods for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szczuku Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 9 hours ago, Xehanightmare said: There's always mods for that. Yeah, because why should Klei care about their game when they can just leave everything for modders, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinister_Fang Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 2 hours ago, Szczuku said: Yeah, because why should Klei care about their game when they can just leave everything for modders, right? I mean, Bethesda has been doing that for years now. It's gone quite well for them so far hasn't it? Oh... wait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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