The game is turning into a mess. All what was once built is now being destroyed. We don't know what Klei's intention, mission and philosophy is anymore.

[Copyafriend]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

And as someone who again plays almost exclusively RogueLites/Likes, I can also tell you that there’s no shortage of titles under this gaming Genre that should certain segments prove to be too difficult: Allows the players to adjust difficulty to something more comfortable through settings.

are you saying that a game catagory designed to be difficult should let people play easy mode?

 

Like the whole point of the rogue lite (and rogue like, but the definition of rogue like is a very touchy subject so we wont get into it) is to be very difficult and requiring you to GET GUD to beat it. (and yes, get gud is a valid critique) The whole point is that you are meant to play and improve, the game is balanced to be designed well around ONE difficulty. shifting the difficulty is robbing yourself of the actual INTENDED GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE: dying a LOT. if you don't want to die a lot you are playing the wrong game.

 

the game is not intended to be accessible. You are not meant to just be able to beat it easily

It's not an achievement if anyone can just lower the difficulty and beat it. it's an achievement if you can beat it in its full intended difficulty.

 

The game is not meant to be comfortable. the game is not meant to be for anyone. It's catering to a specific group, and you are missing the artistic point completely if you play on easy mode.

 

like dark souls, the point is to struggle. the story of the game is to struggle die and struggle again. to challenge seemingly impossible odds and win. THAT is the roguelite catagory.

 

It's a disappointing opinion coming from you, the guy who acclaims difficulty in games so highly, to say that every game should have an easy mode.

[Frosty_Mentos]

I think there's some odd misconception to what folk that come from Uncompromising Mode community what actually uncompromising means. 

The game is harsh, it doesn't tell you anything at the start of what'll be happening or what does what, doesn't give you tutorials and tosses you into a world to explore and log on your own. They've added scrapbook to keep track of progress to teach players instead of anyone going into wikis, DST's mobs have higher healths than singleplayer and there's various threats in more refined ways than what the singleplayer counterpart has offered.

I'm sorry, but compared to multiplayer I will call that singleplayer is an outdated and bad game now when we've got so many new exploration options in the Constant that we've never had before. We've got characters and many many many mechanics on how to deal with many of the threats, and over long periods of time playing this I just think people got so good at the game that now nobody knows what the heck to do anymore.

This game never held anyone's hand ever, but it gave more options to came back and try again. It's ruthless but merciful in doing better than before. In singleplayer the content was very little and healthpools were very tiny to deal with any of the threats. Combat mechanics are extremely clunky and harsh combat means you get even less fair fights and terrible ones at that. Everything was being made new and conceptualized by an indie company that thought would be cool to add without just because it looked cool and might be cool to be in the game or were greatly asked by the community at that time.

While DST is technically a finished game by all standards there's now only to be had more reworks, revisiting on old mechanics to be made new again and feel better for overall experience. And I think Klei been doing a good job at it. 

While this is partially a survival game, there's only so much surviving anyone would do in the Constant's map scenario before they reach into thulecite-tier lategame. Thus ruin rushing exists, is a venture more experienced players get into and do it well at. This is lategame, this is the peak content that kinda where it all supposed to be the finish line for the Constant. But now we got lunar island, lunar and shadow events, rifts, etc... It's now not just a survival game - but an open sandbox exploration game. Is it still uncompromising? Yea, I mean, have you done Pearl's quests before? She's ruthless and harsh (lol)

While the game feels like it's getting easier for many characters is cause they've been never really any bit balanced cause it gave an asymmetrical experience playing as any of them while bringing certain skills, but some being pretty bad at bringing anything to which people would never play despite complaining of them being not interesting to play as before getting tuned up to the point that they're now interesting to play as but people complaining now them being too easy and making the game too easy - you get the point, endless loop.

I like progression, I like the thought of it and having options to bring new kit to the world what I deem useful for me at that time or fun to use, cause there's really harsh bosses out there with healthpools the size of empire state building to which I want to say "get willow blasted" and be done with it, or other times I want to quickly set up my base and resources in less effort than I'd need to put into. Other times I just want to have those characters cause they are convenient to use in certain scenarios... so swapping makes gameplay actually more interesting and utilizes all game mechanics to the max which I find as a good design to give free creativity options to express skill and general knowledge of the game.

I like that the characters also evolve overtime now, to which I hope Klei tunes up character skilltrees to be progress based in the world rather than unlock at anytime or by daycount... Cause for now that's not intuitive and kinda cheap and I bet many would agree on that characters like Willow shouldn't have day 1 Willow blasts before getting the big bads. I think someone spoke of a change sometime, but it'll take a while... since ya know. So many characters, so many skill trees... Eugh. The wait is real.

Anyway. What I mean is... we don't get know what Klei is cooking up at the moment and complaining won't end soon which is tragic. Rift content looks promising and exciting, but it's very new right now to judge besides by it's appearance. Balance is off a little or not enough of something somewhere. It might be more uncompromising than before, it might be just more silly fun interactions overall cause the game's in it's finished state and it's more in it's still and currently in it's refresh-renew phase of making old content feel new again.

If we talk Terraria and I have little much of knowledge of past wall of flesh terraria I think this is kinda the same case for DST at the moment where people seem to say as "NOO THIS ISN'T WHAT YOU PROMISED ME FOR THE PAST 10 YEARS!!!" when they have not promised anything specific... to people now just kinda cry about almost anything that is not what people's expectations were about this game because forums just now kinda has to be that to blame the devs for some reason. Not your money's worth maybe?

-----------------------

I been here for 10 years now, I'm way overgrown than most. I can speak from experience that some people just don't know what the hell is singleplayer experience compared to multiplayer one. It's completely different. It's uncompromising but gives us better content. More refined, more new... Things what old Klei couldn't do! They've expanded, they've grew and I watched them get olded and lose a screw. The game is being made to be fun and interesting than to be something it never was. If they were to have stayed with their old motos and ways they would have went nowhere with this concept forever. So, they've adapted this game into something greater while releasing a couple DLCS for the singleplayer for art, collab or test purposes. Hamlet is a hardcore experience that was mainly made to express and test technical aspects of what they could do which reflected into DST. They've had many artists and I bet some left and some are new cause sometimes it's just better to move on and work on other projects for the sake of sanity and exploring new ventures. I've seen someone complain that Klei's not the same or some workers left, but that's not community's business - it's none of anyone's business but their own. New workforce, new creative ideas making new exciting content which is what most want I bet. They're keeping base game the same while adding layers on top that you can interact and explore if you were to choose to. Everything is optional as is said, nothing will jump into your face unless you jump into theirs first. This is what the game is now. F-around and find out. And I'm all up for it. 

------------------------

My wishlist is that they make ruins more exciting and dangerous. Since many complain of lack of uncompromisation and I love ruins for the sense of danger I'd want more things that would try blasting my face off down there or even evolve post first fuelweaver. 

And if they ever were to make a new experience into a more brutal and "uncompromising" one then I want a different scenario than the Constant. Or a different game/DLC for DST or DS all together.

Buh.

[HowlVoid]

It's ok to move on from the game if it's not going in a direction that appeals to you. 

And I say that sincerely 

Seeing the stream, the devs were genuinely happy adding stuff they think we're going to enjoy. 

Games aren't meant to stay "fresh" indefinitely. That's just not realistic. I will make one point of observation I keep seeing from people who are very outspoken about their disappointment. It always seems to be the same people who want to compare the game with a past version of itself. I won't comment why that is, I think we all know why that is. 

In DST patience is a virtue. To understand the pace Klei has with DST; it's a snails pace but they do listen to feed back. Despite what people think a lot of thought seems to go into their decision making. 

[Swiyss]

6 hours ago, arubaro said:

Im veteran but i have enough common sense to see how infinite stacks in chests in deep late at a presumably high cost doesn't make the game easier 

This must be a troll post because you won't see this level of drama for stuff that actually makes the game less difficult like mctusk ai being broken since they were added

I feel like.. my problem is not with the game becoming "easier", it is somewhat part of some problems, but the biggest issue I see can be tied to the inconsistency of Klei lately. The game doesn't feel like it felt before, it's like they are breaking too many barriers at once to cater for some people.

Like, I understand this. I am a hardcore "veteran" player. But I won't come here and say that Klei should only listen to me. Still, I will propose they consider my view when thinking about this stuff.

I'm gonna be honest. The scary stiff was hype, the comeback of werepig with a laser gun was awesome. The wobot looks amazing. The nice environment features are also amazing. The lunar hail and acid rain changes are what we needed. But the junkyard theme needs a little something to look more macabre and pale. The new chest design (although is very distinguishable from the regular chest, making it effective) is off placed. The infinite number after 999 feels weirdly implemented and kinda uncanny. The acid rain effect on mushrooms is so (for the lack of term) useless.

I just think this update needs way more don't starve-y touches and it would be great.

I was kinda negative before (so sorry for that), but still I could give my vision out and my points were made.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Copyafriend said:

are you saying that a game catagory designed to be difficult should let people play easy mode?

 

Like the whole point of the rogue lite (and rogue like, but the definition of rogue like is a very touchy subject so we wont get into it) is to be very difficult and requiring you to GET GUD to beat it. (and yes, get gud is a valid critique) The whole point is that you are meant to play and improve, the game is balanced to be designed well around ONE difficulty. shifting the difficulty is robbing yourself of the actual INTENDED GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE: dying a LOT. if you don't want to die a lot you are playing the wrong game.

 

the game is not intended to be accessible. You are not meant to just be able to beat it easily

It's not an achievement if anyone can just lower the difficulty and beat it. it's an achievement if you can beat it in its full intended difficulty.

 

The game is not meant to be comfortable. the game is not meant to be for anyone. It's catering to a specific group, and you are missing the artistic point completely if you play on easy mode.

 

like dark souls, the point is to struggle. the story of the game is to struggle die and struggle again. to challenge seemingly impossible odds and win. THAT is the roguelite catagory.

 

It's a disappointing opinion coming from you, the guy who acclaims difficulty in games so highly, to say that every game should have an easy mode.

I was literally playing a game last night where after I died enough times.. it auto switched the difficulty to something easier, that’s the thing though! They want people to be able to actually play & enjoy the game rather than there being only one difficulty curve and that being the only option.

I don’t know if you were alive to play the original Sonic the Hedgehog games but I loved those dearly, I loved how you had a limited pool of lives and when you ran out of those or Continues, it was Game Over and you went back to the start screen.

Sonic Origins Plus (2022 remake) is a Compilation of those games I played all those many years ago.. But even the folks over at Sega knew that Games, and peoples taste in how they play them change.

And that’s why if you Play SOP, There’s “Classic Mode” (the mostly untouched original limited lives version I knew and loved) and then there’s the games core mode “Anniversary” which removes the limited lives system in favor of collecting Coins, Coins which can be used to continuously retry the special chaos emerald bonus stages should you happen to “Fail” at those.

now because I KNOW I’m old, I’ll have to explain how that gives this new generation of sonic players a vastly different game experience from players who played the Originals.

You see, the core concept of the game was to attempt to “gather” these 7 emeralds, and should you fail, you had to try again at another one of the games Limited special stage portals.

Anniversary Mode however changes that, by giving players billions of retry tokens to continue without needing to start over or find one of the other limited portals.

To avoid turning this into a massively long TL:DR- the game and it’s fanbase changed, and what was once a pretty unforgiving franchise, got a “Casuals” Mode.. just so people could play the game at their own pace.

Yet the game still offered the mostly untouched (save for a few missing soundtracks for legal reasons..) Classic mode.

Different strokes for different folks or something like that…

Anyway point is- I died enough in a Hardcore RogueLite last night that the game auto-adjusted the difficulty for me.

Embarrassing? Well yes, but they wanted to make sure I could still enjoy the game.

Rogue Legacy I think it’s called, if you wanna check it out.

Other Rogue Games with Adjustable difficulties is Fury Frenzy, and Gunfire Reborn.

Whats my point? Rogue games despite being known for being “hard” or whatever you want to call them- Also know that if they’re too hard, a large group of players will deem them as “Unplayable” and that’s exactly why you can do things like adjust how fast enemy bullets are fired at you in a game like Fury Frenzy, etc…

DST isn’t even TRYING to be a RogueLike/Lite, so it’s hard for me to take anything you can say about it or it’s gameplay seriously, when as little as two Wolfgang players effectively lower all boss fights to 25% total hp just for the two Wolfgang’s existing.

[Swiyss]

5 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

The point is that you are able to counter the mechanics that will limit the player after they appear, this is especially important for summer and wildfires as you won't have a good time dealing with them otherwise if there was no solution before summer started

But like, people were complaining about the underuse of items like the rain hat, rain armor, umbrella. Even things like the straw hat, pretty parasol, rabbit earmuffs etc.. are things that people were saying there was no reason to use because of the easy way to obtain the other better ones. Now this is actually only a problem for experienced people, but it's still a problem. What people don't understand is that just because it isn't a problem for you, doesn't mean it won't be a problem for me. And it also has an easy fix. 

Like the bat bat, which is an item that heals you aside from doing damage, the insulation ones give you sanity apart from protecting against the harsh winter cold.

The rabbit earmuffs could make rabbits not run away from you, and bunnymen deal slight more damage. The cat cap could make pigs friendly with less meat, and deal slightly more damage if you're using it, but if you use it next to catcoons they get agressive. The pretty parasol could make butterflies appear more but have a higher chance of lightings striking you. The rain hat could give a higher sanity bonus, the rain coat could give 20% movespeed bonus if its raining. The eyebrella could absorb light in the day, and provide a very very small light radius at night, but only when the moon is close to being full.

Something like a "new powers" update to old items would be very cool in my opinion. It wouldn't hurt no one, and it would give me more cool reasons to use some of these lovely items that mostly get forgotten because of how easy it is to progress for me (and for a lot of people too, making a ham bat became way too easy for some of us, so adding another cool use to a spear would be great for game progression).

6 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Infinite chest is amazing, some people like you just want to ruin the game for everyone. Majority of the players don't want the game to be "uncompromising" believe it or not, majority of the players can't even survive the first year. 9 slot chests have been a big limiting factor so that all megabasers would have at least 100+ chests, why should I need to have 50 chests just to fill them with gold/rocks/logs/grass/twigs and other similar material that any long term player will need in large numbers

Having only 9 slots is an extreme that megabasers complained about.

Having INFINITE slots is another extreme, that I will complain about.

There is a middle where everyone gets happy. Like 999 slots, which is already pretty great, and you could have more opportunities to decorate more chests. It's a win win.

6 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

some people like you just want to ruin the game for everyone

The last thing I want is this. When I'm arguing, I change perspectives a whole lot because of people like you who tell me their opinions. If I wanted to "ruin" the game for other people, I would tell to completely remove the feature, that is another extreme. Actually, I tend to think about others perspectives more than mine since my own is already complete. It makes me see from the most angles possible, so I can give a better than regular opinion.

[WhackE]

wow, so this thread is still really popular, and all I can say is you're kinda late to the party with this one. Like a few years late. JoeW. has gone on saying the current devs want to bring this game in a different direction (paraphrasing, but that was the jist), and it's been clear for a few years the game has been moving away from its origins for something more watered down and milquetoast, I agree the game doesn't feel the same anymore and it hasn't for a while.

It's just funny seeing another post like this because they pop up from time to time whenever someone has this revelation, complaining about the same thing but going no where.

[Swiyss]

7 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

So only 1 player should be able to get eyebrella? Doesn't make any sense, you don't want to see any progress when it comes to multiplayer yet you want bosses to have high health when it comes to the same situation. You can't have it both ways, either allow players to have access to loot as a group or limit the HP to DS bosses.

I think there is a world where the eyebrella is an amazing drop, and spring is completely negated (like literally, the only thing we get is a second autumn because of rain being so easily countered) but only later on.

My whole point is to actually limit the player. Yes, you heard me right. I think the player needs to feel pain, to later feel great while thriving. And the thriving era SHOULD feel like "creative mode", but still not completely break the game's idea of a chest slot.

Trust me when I say this, it does feel better to play like that, I've been playing like that for years. Creating a world where I limit myself greatly increases the experience. And it wouldn't hurt no one, trust me it wouldn't.

I'll show you 2 cases.

First, the player obtains the ham bat at day 2. He made a science machine in mosaic, then alchemy in the forest with pig houses and football helm + hambat.

In this case, the game is great, but there is a problem here. A spear was not used, the axe and pickaxe were quickly thrown away for gold variants.

Currently in the game, you can rush the ruins and have one of the best equipment in the game without even making a backpack, or a science machine even, before day 11. This other case is extreme, since it is very hard to pull off.

We should maybe give the player great reasons to use other items placed in early regions of the game rather than simple STATS. New interactions would MAKE the player automatically NOT limit themselves, but still CONSIDER using these alternatives based on what they want.

How is that a hard thing to understand? As I said, it wouldn't hurt no one to simply add new things to already existing features.

My argument is that we got so so many different playstyles, and yet STILL people call me arrogant and say that I only think for myself. Jesus man, I all want is for these different people, with different levels of experience, different playstyles, that play each one a different character, to further expand their choices. To further feel like the game actually has options.

Armor does 80%, other does 90%, another does 95%. If that was the ONLY amount of reasonable features armors had, no one would use the 80% one, but because it is cheap and available early, it is still greatly used by almost 95% of people. I can even show you this currently working in game. Yet, no one see these issues as I said, even if they are as clear as glass.

8 minutes ago, WhackE said:

wow, so this thread is still really popular, and all I can say is you're kinda late to the party with this one. Like a few years late. JoeW. has gone on saying the current devs want to bring this game in a different direction (paraphrasing, but that was the jist), and it's been clear for a few years the game has been moving away from its origins for something more watered down and milquetoast, I agree the game doesn't feel the same anymore and it hasn't for a while.

It's just funny seeing another post like this because they pop up from time to time whenever someone has this revelation, complaining about the same thing but going no where.

Listen, I have a whole topic with the title "we change, and I think you should too". Now if you're naive enough to hink I already don't know that, then just don't spread this information.

2 hours ago, Hi. said:

Man I’m a bit tired of people being so   toxic lately. I am aware that criticism does exist lol, but I feel like people have just been so toxic saying things like “the game is a mess”. Why can’t we just give fair criticism without being so negative?

It's because if these things are not said in this manner, literally no one cares about. And these issues exist.

2 hours ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

surviving anyone would do in the Constant's map scenario before they reach into thulecite-tier lategame. Thus ruin rushing exists, is a venture more experienced players get into and do it well at. This is lategame, this is the peak content that kinda where it all supposed to be the finish line for the Constant. But now we got lunar island, lunar and shadow events, rifts, etc... It's now not just a survival game - but an open sandbox exploration game. Is it still uncompromising? Yea, I mean, have you done Pearl's quests before? She's ruthless and harsh (lol)

This is literally Klei proving my point.

Ruins rush too easy, now they locked late game stuff behind crab king and these people are complaining about the fight being too harsh. Lol.

It could improve in drops and gem choices, but still it is weird to say that this is a bad implementation. Locking the player behind pearl quests was THE BEST THING THAT THEY DID IN THE GAME period.

Edited March 3 by Swiyss

[00petar00]

28 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

But like, people were complaining about the underuse of items like the rain hat, rain armor, umbrella. Even things like the straw hat, pretty parasol, rabbit earmuffs etc.. are things that people were saying there was no reason to use because of the easy way to obtain the other better ones. Now this is actually only a problem for experienced people, but it's still a problem. What people don't understand is that just because it isn't a problem for you, doesn't mean it won't be a problem for me. And it also has an easy fix. 

Like the bat bat, which is an item that heals you aside from doing damage, the insulation ones give you sanity apart from protecting against the harsh winter cold.

The rabbit earmuffs could make rabbits not run away from you, and bunnymen deal slight more damage. The cat cap could make pigs friendly with less meat, and deal slightly more damage if you're using it, but if you use it next to catcoons they get agressive. The pretty parasol could make butterflies appear more but have a higher chance of lightings striking you. The rain hat could give a higher sanity bonus, the rain coat could give 20% movespeed bonus if its raining. The eyebrella could absorb light in the day, and provide a very very small light radius at night, but only when the moon is close to being full.

Something like a "new powers" update to old items would be very cool in my opinion. It wouldn't hurt no one, and it would give me more cool reasons to use some of these lovely items that mostly get forgotten because of how easy it is to progress for me (and for a lot of people too, making a ham bat became way too easy for some of us, so adding another cool use to a spear would be great for game progression).

This has nothing to do with current discussion but I'll reply. There will always be better items because there is so much variety in the game, I wouldn't mind some new additions to the current items as you suggested and it could be really interesting.

31 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Having only 9 slots is an extreme that megabasers complained about.

Having INFINITE slots is another extreme, that I will complain about.

There is a middle where everyone gets happy. Like 999 slots, which is already pretty great, and you could have more opportunities to decorate more chests. It's a win win.

Infinite storage isn't a problem to anyone playing purely for survival because they won't be needing it. That is what happened with lunar hail last time, players including me were saying that it shouldn't kill mobs and yet there was a decent amount of pushback from some players when it doesn't have any effect on them.

We still only have 9 slot chests and it is not enough as there are a lot of items that don't stack.

7 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

some people like you just want to ruin the game for everyone

I wrote this in regards to the following:

18 hours ago, Swiyss said:

I am completely against the addition of these infinite chests, it (again) ruins completely the purpose of us suffering for AGES with regular chests and finding out mechanics and strategies to overcome it. Fighting dfly constantly for 3 more slots. Now we got 198w728289w9929288282828929294995968587627178 slots. Jesus, seriously, this is to make anyone go crazy.

Gathering 1000 boards isn't fun, just because you want to kill dragonfly for 3 more slots per chest it doesn't mean that anyone else would want to do that when they can get wood to make 15 chests in that time if not more easily.

 

[Swiyss]

Still I think there should be 2 worlds.

Where pearl gives the pearl at 8 quests, but gives a WAY BETTER reward at 12 quests.

Now everyone is happy. Everyone can enjoy their things. The one whi likes to rush bs gear, and the one who wants to experience a nice interaction with our lovely grandma (like me).

2 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

It's ok to move on from the game if it's not going in a direction that appeals to you. 

And I say that sincerely 

Seeing the stream, the devs were genuinely happy adding stuff they think we're going to enjoy. 

Games aren't meant to stay "fresh" indefinitely. That's just not realistic. I will make one point of observation I keep seeing from people who are very outspoken about their disappointment. It always seems to be the same people who want to compare the game with a past version of itself. I won't comment why that is, I think we all know why that is. 

In DST patience is a virtue. To understand the pace Klei has with DST; it's a snails pace but they do listen to feed back. Despite what people think a lot of thought seems to go into their decision making. 

I am stating it as dissatisfaction because that is how it should come off. If I say it in a great and lovely positive manner, I get 2 comments, and both are unrelated lol.

Still, I read every single comment on any of my posts, and I have a big side notebook with some great points I liked from that person's perspective.

[Mike23Ua]

You think locking a ton of great content behind extremely late game grind RPG-like quests for an Ungrateful grumpy NPC character is the Best thing Klei has done for DST?

LOL… Maybe it is “Okay” for one permanent world you plan to play on indefinitely for the rest of all eternity.

But if you played the game the way I do-

Limiting yourself to sticking exclusively to one character per world, never using Portal to switch out, and always deleting your worlds and starting brand new fresh starting ones each time Klei releases a new content update and “Retro-Fitting” doesn’t Retro-Fit properly.

You will very quickly realize just how tediously exhausting the questline actually is.

And I for one, only plan to do it the legit way ONCE and only ONCE to unlock my character affinities skills, but after that: I’ll just be toggling new content on through world Gen settings.

That Questline is the FURTHEST thing removed from solo DS, I’d even dare to say it’s even more out of place then Skill Trees are!

And I can say that because In Solo DS you only started with Wilson, and as you gained Exp other better characters with unique skills started unlocking.

Which is similar to how playing a character long enough in DST unlocks skill points to improve their performance.

The players crying that skill trees make the game too easy are being blind to the very fact it’s NO DIFFERENT FROM UNLOCKING CHARACTERS IN SOLO DS.

The real root of the problem is that, there’s just not enough new unique content to interact with that isn’t super late-game rift stuff, that even warrants giving these characters skill trees in the first place.

But that’s less of a problem with the fun skill trees, and more of a problem with lack of content that isn’t an optional boss fight in an obscure corner of the map requiring a specific tool or resource to summon.

[Swiyss]

59 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I was literally playing a game last night where after I died enough times.. it auto switched the difficulty to something easier, that’s the thing though! They want people to be able to actually play & enjoy the game rather than there being only one difficulty curve and that being the only option.

I don’t know if you were alive to play the original Sonic the Hedgehog games but I loved those dearly, I loved how you had a limited pool of lives and when you ran out of those or Continues, it was Game Over and you went back to the start screen.

Sonic Origins Plus (2022 remake) is a Compilation of those games I played all those many years ago.. But even the folks over at Sega knew that Games, and peoples taste in how they play them change.

And that’s why if you Play SOP, There’s “Classic Mode” (the mostly untouched original limited lives version I knew and loved) and then there’s the games core mode “Anniversary” which removes the limited lives system in favor of collecting Coins, Coins which can be used to continuously retry the special chaos emerald bonus stages should you happen to “Fail” at those.

now because I KNOW I’m old, I’ll have to explain how that gives this new generation of sonic players a vastly different game experience from players who played the Originals.

You see, the core concept of the game was to attempt to “gather” these 7 emeralds, and should you fail, you had to try again at another one of the games Limited special stage portals.

Anniversary Mode however changes that, by giving players billions of retry tokens to continue without needing to start over or find one of the other limited portals.

To avoid turning this into a massively long TL:DR- the game and it’s fanbase changed, and what was once a pretty unforgiving franchise, got a “Casuals” Mode.. just so people could play the game at their own pace.

Yet the game still offered the mostly untouched (save for a few missing soundtracks for legal reasons..) Classic mode.

Different strokes for different folks or something like that…

Anyway point is- I died enough in a Hardcore RogueLite last night that the game auto-adjusted the difficulty for me.

Embarrassing? Well yes, but they wanted to make sure I could still enjoy the game.

Rogue Legacy I think it’s called, if you wanna check it out.

Other Rogue Games with Adjustable difficulties is Fury Frenzy, and Gunfire Reborn.

Whats my point? Rogue games despite being known for being “hard” or whatever you want to call them- Also know that if they’re too hard, a large group of players will deem them as “Unplayable” and that’s exactly why you can do things like adjust how fast enemy bullets are fired at you in a game like Fury Frenzy, etc…

DST isn’t even TRYING to be a RogueLike/Lite, so it’s hard for me to take anything you can say about it or it’s gameplay seriously, when as little as two Wolfgang players effectively lower all boss fights to 25% total hp just for the two Wolfgang’s existing.

I used to play a lot of mario when I was very little. Old nintendo. And it sometimes required months to complete a full world. Today, games are running from this pattern a bit. Still we got some famous ones, and the really good ones get exponentially more famous which shows how people want this.

[BezKa]

1 hour ago, Swiyss said:

There is a middle where everyone gets happy.

How about tall chest having only one slot for an infinite stack? Ends up functioning like wall storage, but prettier and reducing lag.

 

Edit: made a suggestion, feel free to grill me on there:

 

Edited March 4 by BezKa

[Swiyss]

21 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Gathering 1000 boards isn't fun, just because you want to kill dragonfly for 3 more slots per chest it doesn't mean that anyone else would want to do that when they can get wood to make 15 chests in that time if not more easily

I am against them being infinite.

I am against current storage system.

There IS a middle ground.

[00petar00]

37 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I think there is a world where the eyebrella is an amazing drop, and spring is completely negated (like literally, the only thing we get is a second autumn because of rain being so easily countered) but only later on.

My whole point is to actually limit the player. Yes, you heard me right. I think the player needs to feel pain, to later feel great while thriving. And the thriving era SHOULD feel like "creative mode", but still not completely break the game's idea of a chest slot.

Trust me when I say this, it does feel better to play like that, I've been playing like that for years. Creating a world where I limit myself greatly increases the experience. And it wouldn't hurt no one, trust me it wouldn't.

This is purely seeing it from one side, If I can't summon as many deerclops as needed that would limit my ability to make 3 houndius shootius per year to only 1 or 0 per year depending on if I have to give the eye to another player for eyebrella.

So one player that got lucky during winter gets to have eyebrella and everyone else should have a harder time during spring? 

There can be an argument to limit deerclops to year 2 before you are able to summon as many as you want but in that case the first deerclops shouldn't spawn during the first winter either as I don't want anyone to have eyebrella if all of the players can't get it but this probably won't happen.

37 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I'll show you 2 cases.

First, the player obtains the ham bat at day 2. He made a science machine in mosaic, then alchemy in the forest with pig houses and football helm + hambat.

In this case, the game is great, but there is a problem here. A spear was not used, the axe and pickaxe were quickly thrown away for gold variants.

Spear is a terrible weapon, the upgrade path is axe > ham bat. I don't use gold variants of tools that early, there is plenty of flint.

37 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Currently in the game, you can rush the ruins and have one of the best equipment in the game without even making a backpack, or a science machine even, before day 11. This other case is extreme, since it is very hard to pull off.

Doing a science-less ruins rush isn't an advantage and only experienced players can attempt to do it for fun or competition. Lantern, football helmet and ham bat make up for the amount of time invest into obtaining them to do a proper ruins rush and you'll be faster or have much more loot if you are slower compared to the player that is doing science-less ruins rush.

37 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

We should maybe give the player great reasons to use other items placed in early regions of the game rather than simple STATS. New interactions would MAKE the player automatically NOT limit themselves, but still CONSIDER using these alternatives based on what they want.

How is that a hard thing to understand? As I said, it wouldn't hurt no one to simply add new things to already existing features.

That is already something I agreed with you on, I would find it interesting if items received some unique abilities to make them worth using in specific situations.

37 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

My argument is that we got so so many different playstyles, and yet STILL people call me arrogant and say that I only think for myself. Jesus man, I all want is for these different people, with different levels of experience, different playstyles, that play each one a different character, to further expand their choices. To further feel like the game actually has options.

Armor does 80%, other does 90%, another does 95%. If that was the ONLY amount of reasonable features armors had, no one would use the 80% one, but because it is cheap and available early, it is still greatly used by almost 95% of people. I can even show you this currently working in game. Yet, no one see these issues as I said, even if they are as clear as glass.

There will always be the best armor and the cheapest most affordable option. Currently armor in the game is amazing, there is enough variety and a lot of them have unique abilities.

4 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I am against them being infinite.

I am against current storage system.

There IS a middle ground.

I want chest storage to be infinite, I don't want to have to build hundreds of chests and would actually prefer if I could put everything into one endless chest.

Edited March 4 by 00petar00

[Swiyss]

11 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

You think locking a ton of great content behind extremely late game grind RPG-like quests for an Ungrateful grumpy NPC character is the Best thing Klei has done for DST?

LOL… Maybe it is “Okay” for one permanent world you plan to play on indefinitely for the rest of all eternity.

But if you played the game the way I do-

Limiting yourself to sticking exclusively to one character per world, never using Portal to switch out, and always deleting your worlds and starting brand new fresh starting ones each time Klei releases a new content update and “Retro-Fitting” doesn’t Retro-Fit properly.

You will very quickly realize just how tediously exhausting the questline actually is.

And I for one, only plan to do it the legit way ONCE and only ONCE to unlock my character affinities skills, but after that: I’ll just be toggling new content on through world Gen settings.

That Questline is the FURTHEST thing removed from solo DS, I’d even dare to say it’s even more out of place then Skill Trees are!

And I can say that because In Solo DS you only started with Wilson, and as you gained Exp other better characters with unique skills started unlocking.

Which is similar to how playing a character long enough in DST unlocks skill points to improve their performance.

The players crying that skill trees make the game too easy are being blind to the very fact it’s NO DIFFERENT FROM UNLOCKING CHARACTERS IN SOLO DS.

The real root of the problem is that, there’s just not enough new unique content to interact with that isn’t super late-game rift stuff, that even warrants giving these characters skill trees in the first place.

But that’s less of a problem with the fun skill trees, and more of a problem with lack of content that isn’t an optional boss fight in an obscure corner of the map requiring a specific tool or resource to summon.

That's why I unconsciously thought about you when I said that the pearl should be acquired in 8 quests. 

Still I will give my opinion when they changed the restrained static for example. My opinion is that 3 is ok. But it won't hurt me if they make it 1. Actually it makes sense.

9 minutes ago, BezKa said:

How about tall chest having only one slot for an infinite stack? Ends up functioning like wall storage, but prettier and reducing lag.

That would be awesome imo. Each chest have a resource to its name. Perfect!

4 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

can be an argument to limit deerclops to year 2 before you are able to summon as many as you want but in that case the first deerclops shouldn't spawn in winter either as I don't want anyone to have eyebrella if all of the players can't get it but this probably won't happen

True. I think making it the second year would be almost perfect, because the first spring is "atleast" still a spring.

I know... angry bees, mosling eating foods. Still this is not nearly as hard as winter or summer.

Maybe it isn't supposed to be hard, so that is ok. Still, these rifts need to change the enviroment more when it comes to seasons. Right now things are too bland.

6 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Spear is a terrible weapon, the upgrade path is axe > ham bat. I don't use gold variants of tools that early, there is plenty of flint

So.. then..

Lets just say, that an item that was supposed to be a weapon, is not that great as a weapon.

Can we... maybe agree that..

It could be better? What's hard about that?

Bro we agree with everything except the chest.

I think the chest should not be infinite for 2 reasons

1. You can always make more chests, and they all will have 999 slots, that is way more then enough space. And doing that wouldn't make the game feel like a cheap addition. It is so ugly that it goes past 999, in only 1 slot.

2. There is a limited amount of resources in the game. It is not like we have more than 1000 different items that each need more than 999 slots. It is unreasonable and weird to make INFINITE.

And it also comes the question. Why not make polar bearger bin infinite too? Make crockpot accept 40 stacks to cook all at once?

Like, you get what I mean? What is the limit?

This addition hopefully will not go past the beta, and if it does, it will look way too weird for most people to accept.

I think that outside of this forum, people will definitely be weirded out about this, especially veteran players.

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

19 hours ago, Swiyss said:

Dude. Minecraft is a billion times bigger and their beta snapshots stay on for like a year at most. Everything added gets changed so much, and new things are marinated so well that every single update comes out polished and complete, even if some were not the best atleast they're refined enough. I know that they don't need to call people to play the game because of how massive it is, but atleast it works.

Lol Minecraft updates are so trash. They're "polished" because they don't actually add anything

[BalkanCockroach]

7 minutes ago, EATZYOWAFFLEZ said:

Lol Minecraft updates are so trash. They're "polished" because they don't actually add anything

It all went downhill after the nether update, they started splitting normal sized updates into two, then they just promised less and when they were able to deliver they acted like they actually did something lmao. The recent stuff isn't that bad tho even though it's the bare minimun you still get neat stuff like wind charges to play around with.

[mykenception]

19 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

So the game isn’t “Easy” there just isn’t enough to actually “Do”

I mean, you refuse to do almost anything in the game.

never planned to interact with the other bosses, or explore and continue either the lunar or the shadow questlines, and only turn on the post rift content just to see how it feels

[Copyafriend]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

I was literally playing a game last night where after I died enough times.. it auto switched the difficulty to something easier, that’s the thing though! They want people to be able to actually play & enjoy the game rather than there being only one difficulty curve and that being the only option.

that's great that the game that you were playing offers that. (i've tried rogue legacy 2 before it was done, and reached the end of content, but haven't gone back to re-finish it)

I would personally, be angry if it was changed without my permission, I should be asked, but that's a separate point.

 

My point, which you completely glossed over, is that some games aren't meant to have difficulty options, the original Sonic had limited lives and a complete restart when the game ended is a result of the limited length of the game, and the time during which it was made.

 

Some games are meant to have difficulty options, but as you said:

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Different strokes for different folks or something like that…

 

it's great for some games to have that as an option, but some people, myself included, want difficulty to be one well balanced point. Think enter the gungeon (highly recommended), it's a hard game, and there's no lower difficulty you can play on. you can get better, but you will never be able to breeze through. but that is the point. the difficulty of the game is PART of the story, if it was easy then everyone there who wasn't a playable character would have successfully reached the end of the dungeon, but maybe YOU can.

same with dark souls, or hollow knight

the difficulty is intended to create a dreary oppressive atmosphere that adds to the game. to reduce the difficulty is to reduce the atmosphere of the game. either you win, or lore wise, your character gives up.

one of my favorite games (I would not recommend you play it, it's intentionally unfair) is called rain world. in this world, YOU as the player, are not important, or particularly strong, or are guaranteed to survive even if you play perfectly. sometimes that normally peaceful villager just hates you and will kill you without hesitation when they don't normally do that. sometimes there are multiple lizards ready to eat you the second you enter the room, and you get eaten. sometimes you enter a new area, enter a safe zone, and die repeatedly LOCKING YOU INTO this new harder area. but this is all because the game isn't designed with you the player in mind. the lizards hunt for food, including offscreen. this means sometimes they will get together in ways that it's impossible for you to get through. the birds do too. the prey animals you might hunt will sometimes all be eaten before you can have a chance to hunt them. sometimes there just isn't enough food for you to rest for this "cycle".

 

this is all to provide the atmosphere of an oppressive predator eats prey world. now rain world does actually have an "easy" mode in theory, but it's hard to explain why it's not actually an easy mode. you'll have to trust me, they're just different characters with different stories. the "monk" character is called the easy mode, but in reality it's actually that the beginner areas are easier, but the later areas are harder in response. and the "easy mode" is still harder than most rogue likes I know.

[mykenception]

3 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

like dark souls, the point is to struggle. the story of the game is to struggle die and struggle again. to challenge seemingly impossible odds and win. THAT is the roguelite catagory.

tho, with all survival games, you can only survive so much that you'll be able to know what to do. Knowledge is power is very true to this game and if you already know what to do and have experience on how to do it, the game will be easier for you

and this is actually confusing because Mike really likes all the uncompromising stuff and difficulty and all that but still wants an easy mode

[Swiyss]

4 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

difficulty is intended to create a dreary oppressive atmosphere that adds to the game. to reduce the difficulty is to reduce the atmosphere of the game. either you win, or lore wise, your character gives up

The difficulty of dst is already reduced by obtaining knowledge, which is why I agree with you.

However some folks want more difficulty, and they don't know how they really wantit . If a suggestion is about the game mechanics, that's fine, but if it touches the idea of making something already hard harder, then that's bad for the game since you're only focusing on yourself.

 

A solution is to tweak things up with added features instead of changing numbers, except when the feature itself is not intended.

Like for example, let's say it is hard to find salt formations.. simply making salt appear guaranteed alongside a specific land biome would fix this issue, but reducing the number of cookie cutter shells in Pearl's house or even removing the need of it is a bad implementation.

In my opinion making wigfrids commanders helm require only marble is waaaaay too bad. They should've made the hat stronger, and add a gnarwhale horn requirement. Then later on, when they touhed the ocean, they could make so using a beefalo horn in the ocean has a 15% chance of spawning a gnarwhale. BOOM that would also fix how hard it is to craft the strident trident.

And also make it so the helm doesn't break at 0%, but simply stayed broken but inefficient until it regenerates back to 1%. Or maybe adding 3 gold to it to repair itself would also be great.

We have to create more win win conditions.

[arubaro]

9 minutes ago, mykenception said:

and this is actually confusing because Mike really likes all the uncompromising stuff and difficulty and all that but still wants an easy mode

He just wants flashy unfair destruction and encounters so if he survives is because the flashy thing wasnt actually a challenge and if dies is because a unlucky dice roll...

To have a easy mode in this game you need absurd nerfs and a lot of hand holding tutorials and hints because 80% of the difficulty in this game is knowing what could happend and how to be prepare for it. Basically learning from mistakes

[mykenception]

9 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

In my opinion making wigfrids commanders helm require only marble is waaaaay too bad. They should've made the hat stronger, and add a gnarwhale horn requirement. Then later on, when they touhed the ocean, they could make so using a beefalo horn in the ocean has a 15% chance of spawning a gnarwhale. BOOM that would also fix how hard it is to craft the strident trident.

wigfrids would just spam more battle helms if that's the case

and if they want something stronger then they'll wear dreadstone helms

[Swiyss]

1 minute ago, mykenception said:

wigfrids would just spam more battle helms if that's the case

and if they want something stronger then they'll wear dreadstone helms

Well then remove the gnarwhale sprite and feathers from it? 

The intention was to make it a unicorn style helm, still instead of actually thinking it through to make the idea stand, they simply said "yeah marbles work", don't get me wrong, it does look lazy..

It could be looked at.

I played wigfrid, and when I unlocked the helm I was excited, because I actually made a boat to kill a gnarwhale and collected azure feathers in tumbleweeds. Then I saw that it costs marble. There was nothing more frustrating then this. I saw the design first and said to myself "surely it costs ATLEAST the azure feather".

People cry too much to reduce crafting materials and things ended up looking weird or bandaid-fixed.

The beta was rushed too which was not great to begin with. Still I hope they atleast make it cost azure feathers again. And if they make it cost a gnarwhale, make the item repairable before  breaking.