Planar Damage is a mistake.

[Dr.Webber]

Maybe they can bring shade helm wildlings followers could be able to get planar gains 

[Mr Giggio]

"That doesn't mean we don't want bug reports and feedback, just that you should keep in mind that you don't have the whole picture yet, but it's still good for us to know your thoughts"

[Theukon-dos]

Well, another day, another beta. This one being very important because it pretty much scratched point 3 completely off the list. It added visual and audio indicators for planar damage and defense, along with new punching bags that actually tell the player how much damage they do per hit. So now, the player can actually get a vague sense of how the whole thing works. 

 

That being said though, I'm still quite firm on my other two points. The ability to see damage has really put into perspective the fact that Wolfgang goes from 2x damage to 1.3 damage, which as I said before is just plain mean to the poor carnie. And Wigfrid's not faring much better either with her damage bonus going from 1.25x to 1.08x Klei nobody was complaining about Wigfrid's dps. Why did you have to do this to the poor girl? 

And the whole system is still way more complicated than it needs to be. Why can't it just be tag based? If an enemy has the planar tag, then any damage without the planar tag is reduced by an amount. And if the damage does have the planar tag, then it's not reduced. How did we get to *waves at whatever the hell the planar damage formula even is*

[Vinja]

9 hours ago, sudoku said:

We are being asked to give feedback on post-CC content when it largely does not exist yet and that is the issue i have with this update.  

The thing is we’re being asked to give feedback but then their response to the feedback is “well you don’t know what we have planned so we’re not going to listen to you just trust me bro” which makes me wonder why the hell we’re even beta testing it then. They clearly don’t have enough for us to properly test they’re just trying to rush it out for a bit of short term interest in the game.

[Evelo]

I disagree but to each their own.

[Capybara007]

10 hours ago, Capybara007 said:

adding more damage types to a game that does not show damage

aged like milk

[Zeklo]

1 hour ago, Vinja said:

The thing is we’re being asked to give feedback but then their response to the feedback is “well you don’t know what we have planned so we’re not going to listen to you just trust me bro” which makes me wonder why the hell we’re even beta testing it then. They clearly don’t have enough for us to properly test they’re just trying to rush it out for a bit of short term interest in the game.

The answer is giving a different kind of feedback. Dare I say, better feedback.

Clearly Klei has plans spanning several updates that include the Planar System.
Threads and arguments that amount to: "please remove it" just aren't helpful, because that's like asking them to toss out a year(+?) worth of plans.

How can they improve it? How can they better incentivize it? What will make it more satisfying to utilize?

We've gotten the Pick/Hammer. We've gotten the Hoe/Shovel. We've gotten reduced Brightshade health and numbers. We've gotten better visuals—
So much feedback has already been listened to and applied, it's hardly fair to say they're ignoring us.

[00petar00]

29 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

The answer is giving a different kind of feedback. Dare I say, better feedback.

There's no way you actually believe that you can give better feedback by only seeing 33% of the content.

29 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

Clearly Klei has plans spanning several updates that include the Planar System.
Threads and arguments that amount to: "please remove it" just aren't helpful, because that's like asking them to toss out a year(+?) worth of plans.

Beta exists for players to give feedback and we can only respond to what is in the beta so there is nothing wrong with them saying that.

If it takes a full year for the complete update to come out, should planar system be in a bad state for the duration of that time?

29 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

We've gotten the Pick/Hammer. We've gotten the Hoe/Shovel. We've gotten reduced Brightshade health and numbers. We've gotten better visuals—
So much feedback has already been listened to and applied, it's hardly fair to say they're ignoring us.

Tools that are completely useless when you have limitless amounts of gold, why gather materials just to save on an inventory slot in a post CC world where they will have more free inventory slots as they are already in late game and won't be collecting as many things.

We aren't getting ignored but we can't give good feedback without knowing what the full update will look like.

 I really love how the new weapons,armor and tools look like but that is pretty much it.

[loopuleasa]

I like mobs that pierce my armor lategame, as armor is too strong in this game.

Flat damage is not a big enough threat for late game mobs or bosses.

[Zeklo]

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

Beta exists for players to give feedback and we can only respond to what is in the beta so there is nothing wrong with them saying that.

'Better' was a poor choice of words on my part, so let me rephrase that—constructive feedback.
Dissatisfaction is important! But again—How can they improve it? How can they better incentivize it? What will make it more satisfying to utilize?

There are tons of interesting suggestions for the portals. From structures that force them into certain areas or outright relocating them to the ocean.

Options. Solutions. Things that stem from dissatisfaction but offer a path forward that isn't just "don't do it."
Cuz at this point I think we all realize that the Planar System is sticking around. So what can be done to make it more appealing?

[-Variant]

2 hours ago, Zeklo said:

The answer is giving a different kind of feedback. Dare I say, better feedback.

Clearly Klei has plans spanning several updates that include the Planar System.
Threads and arguments that amount to: "please remove it" just aren't helpful, because that's like asking them to toss out a year(+?) worth of plans.

How can they improve it? How can they better incentivize it? What will make it more satisfying to utilize?

We've gotten the Pick/Hammer. We've gotten the Hoe/Shovel. We've gotten reduced Brightshade health and numbers. We've gotten better visuals—
So much feedback has already been listened to and applied, it's hardly fair to say they're ignoring us.

This, this, this, this.
We need more people to realize that simply dropping an entire year's worth of planned stuff, and even just this update alone is simply not feasible.

If Klei were to directly tell us that they had no plans on removing Planar, what would you say in response?

------------------------------------

You may not like the direction they're going in, but just because they won't back down doesn't mean you can't be constructive and suggest ways to make the ride less bumpy, if they can't convince you.

I for one, am content with the beta leaving rocky as-is if it means the future is smoothed out. Maybe not... unbearably rocky, but nothing mind blowing is fine to me.

[00petar00]

34 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

'Better' was a poor choice of words on my part, so let me rephrase that—constructive feedback.
Dissatisfaction is important! But again—How can they improve it? How can they better incentivize it? What will make it more satisfying to utilize?

There are tons of interesting suggestions for the portals. From structures that force them into certain areas or outright relocating them to the ocean.

Options. Solutions. Things that stem from dissatisfaction but offer a path forward that isn't just "don't do it."
Cuz at this point I think we all realize that the Planar System is sticking around. So what can be done to make it more appealing?

For starters if the updates are going to be split like this, I don't see why we can't be told what the full update is going to have on beta release, at least their current plans written down so that we have better understanding and that would allow us to give better feedback.

I don't really mind the planar system in itself but it will require a lot of work if it isn't going to be a smaller part of the game that will only have effect on the lunar/nightmare creatures. I do believe that these items will only be used for the battle between lunar and nightmare side so it doesn't seem like it will have that much impact indefinitely in the future content but only for specific updates.

Just giving your thoughts on how you feel about the update should be helpful to some degree as developers will be able to gauge how many players like the content in its current form also It is even a question if we can figure out a good solution without knowing the full extent of the upcoming changes as we would just be guessing.

[Neu7ral]

I think it's neat.

[Vinja]

4 hours ago, Zeklo said:

The answer is giving a different kind of feedback. Dare I say, better feedback.

Clearly Klei has plans spanning several updates that include the Planar System.
Threads and arguments that amount to: "please remove it" just aren't helpful, because that's like asking them to toss out a year(+?) worth of plans.

How can they improve it? How can they better incentivize it? What will make it more satisfying to utilize?

We've gotten the Pick/Hammer. We've gotten the Hoe/Shovel. We've gotten reduced Brightshade health and numbers. We've gotten better visuals—
So much feedback has already been listened to and applied, it's hardly fair to say they're ignoring us.

Yeah I mean you’re right, they’re not just entirely ignoring us but to me the biggest portion of the update is the planar damage, and potentially adding a new tier of endgame gear. Those are going to be foundational for everything else that is to come and adjusting them or removing them/going a different route now is the best time. We’re asking them to *adjust* a years worth of plans. (I’m not fancy I don’t know how to do the bold and italics so just imagine with me here). You make it sound like they have so much invested already and they really don’t. They have very little time invested in this new system at the moment and it seems to me at least just based on the sentiment on the forum anyway that there are more people that dislike the system than those who like it. That’s not insignificant. 

Anyway, point is now is the time to ask for change to the biggest part of the update, the foundation that sets everything else up. We’re not asking them to change a years worth of work and it would be totally unfair to do so as well, but by the time we “have the full picture” and can finally see the arc as a whole so they will stop disregarding our feedback on the planar system it will probably be too late. That kinda sucks, no?

Just wish they would have given us more with this update so we can see what exactly their plans are so that we can give, as you say, better feedback. Anyway I appreciate your response it’s good to point out they aren’t just ignoring us completely. To me it just felt kinda bad because the part that I was particularly invested in since it seems so important to the future was pretty much just disregarded with the reasoning of “trust me bro” lol.

[Theukon-dos]

9 hours ago, Zeklo said:

'Better' was a poor choice of words on my part, so let me rephrase that—constructive feedback.
Dissatisfaction is important! But again—How can they improve it? How can they better incentivize it? What will make it more satisfying to utilize?

There are tons of interesting suggestions for the portals. From structures that force them into certain areas or outright relocating them to the ocean.

Options. Solutions. Things that stem from dissatisfaction but offer a path forward that isn't just "don't do it."
Cuz at this point I think we all realize that the Planar System is sticking around. So what can be done to make it more appealing?

1. Sunken cost fallacy. The amount of effort that it would take to make Planar Damage "good" may very well be more effort than they've already spent on the system.

2. That's the thing. I don't think that the Planar Damage system can be improved. Ultimately, the biggest problem with the system is that it's effective going "Y'know what? No more Dark Swords and Football Helmets" without actually letting the players get upgrades. And yes, they did say that these items aren't nessesarily supposed to be upgrades. But given that you have to go through oblivion and back just to unlock it, I just don't see why that should be the case.

 

So, if the reason planar damage exists is the problem. Then how can fix said problem while having a reason to keep planar damage around?

11 hours ago, Zeklo said:

The answer is giving a different kind of feedback. Dare I say, better feedback.

Clearly Klei has plans spanning several updates that include the Planar System.
Threads and arguments that amount to: "please remove it" just aren't helpful, because that's like asking them to toss out a year(+?) worth of plans.

How can they improve it? How can they better incentivize it? What will make it more satisfying to utilize?

We've gotten the Pick/Hammer. We've gotten the Hoe/Shovel. We've gotten reduced Brightshade health and numbers. We've gotten better visuals—
So much feedback has already been listened to and applied, it's hardly fair to say they're ignoring us.

 

9 hours ago, -Variant said:

This, this, this, this.
We need more people to realize that simply dropping an entire year's worth of planned stuff, and even just this update alone is simply not feasible.

If Klei were to directly tell us that they had no plans on removing Planar, what would you say in response?

------------------------------------

You may not like the direction they're going in, but just because they won't back down doesn't mean you can't be constructive and suggest ways to make the ride less bumpy, if they can't convince you.

I for one, am content with the beta leaving rocky as-is if it means the future is smoothed out. Maybe not... unbearably rocky, but nothing mind blowing is fine to me.

Nobody's asking for Klei to ditch a year's worth of plans. This isn't a bank heist. Just because one thing doesn't work out doesn't mean that the rest of it isn't still easy enough to iron out.

[sudoku]

Idk how they develop these updates but honestly i would have preferred that they started with the new early game content they said they have planned first. Put the focus there and then work on the endgame updates in the background until they have most of the core mechanics done so that the new systems can be seen in their entirety. 

[Catteflyterpill]

2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

1. Sunken cost fallacy. The amount of effort that it would take to make Planar Damage "good" may very well be more effort than they've already spent on the system.

2. That's the thing. I don't think that the Planar Damage system can be improved. Ultimately, the biggest problem with the system is that it's effective going "Y'know what? No more Dark Swords and Football Helmets" without actually letting the players get upgrades. And yes, they did say that these items aren't nessesarily supposed to be upgrades. But given that you have to go through oblivion and back just to unlock it, I just don't see why that should be the case.

 

So, if the reason planar damage exists is the problem. Then how can fix said problem while having a reason to keep planar damage around?

 

Nobody's asking for Klei to ditch a year's worth of plans. This isn't a bank heist. Just because one thing doesn't work out doesn't mean that the rest of it isn't still easy enough to iron out.

Klei's stated that this update is supposed to be an entry point for all the upcoming end game content. If that's the case, then yeah you are asking Klei to ditch a year's worth of plans by removing the mechanic entirely, if this is supposed to be integral to the content we're going to see it's not a sunken cost fallacy that people are making suggestions to make this accessible. Especially if it's a big part of the plans, it makes more sense that Klei would want to let the community have a taste of the foundation before they build on the mechanics of planar damage. 

[sudoku]

20 minutes ago, Catteflyterpill said:

 it makes more sense that Klei would want to let the community have a taste of the foundation before they build on the mechanics of planar damage. 

Yes but first impressions are everything. 

They took this same approach with ocean content with the first update being a foundational one and despite us getting multiple ocean content updates since then the ocean still cant escape the stigma that its lacking content and unfinished simply because it has existed for so long with that being the case.

I wouldnt be surprised if in a year or 2 from now it will be a popular notion that the endgame feels the same way.

[Theukon-dos]

26 minutes ago, sudoku said:

They took this same approach with ocean content with the first update being a foundational one and despite us getting multiple ocean content updates since then the ocean still cant escape the stigma that its lacking content and unfinished simply because it has existed for so long with that being the case.

No no no, that's still the case. Curse of the Moon Quey is the only ocean content update that got close to shaking things up, but then Klei shot that down by making the Moon Quey the single hardest location to find in the game.

[Guille6785]

On 4/20/2023 at 4:46 PM, Theukon-dos said:

Anyways, your logic still boils down too "Nerf everything around Wolfgang", which further proves my point that Wolfgang is the problem here, and thus should be nerfed directly. 

how about we stop nerfing things and prioritize fun

[Toroic]

I've given this some thought over the past couple days, and I don't think planar damage itself is the problem so much as the chunk of content they chose introduces planar damage, planar resistant armor, enemies that are resistant to non-planar damage... and that's it.

The new gear with all the requirements to access it is only worth using to farm the new mobs... that give you materials for the new gear.  For older content, the old gear is superior (and you probably cleared it all as a prerequisite anyway).

Contrast this with dreadstone gear which has a clear niche as high defense, regenerating armor which is immediately useful and requires only a little ruins diving to access.

Once planar gear actually lets you access content that doesn't just let you farm more gear I think it will feel a lot better.

 

[Duck986]

18 hours ago, Vinja said:

They clearly don’t have enough for us to properly test they’re just trying to rush it out for a bit of short term interest in the game.

I sometimes think that selling themselves to a Chinese profit-thirst corporation was a bad idea, but maybe I'm just biased paranoid who doesn't know how businesses work.

[Ryusuta]

Thank you. I've been trying to explain this, but I feel like this glaring issue is just being ignored.

[sudoku]

21 hours ago, Vinja said:

 They clearly don’t have enough for us to properly test they’re just trying to rush it out for a bit of short term interest in the game.

I think this is a result of the way the have built their content pipeline. It clearly worked much better when character refreshes were woven in between content updates because of their smaller scale which allowed extra time for content updates to be worked on in the background. 

I don't really know what they can do about it though... They have done things this way for a long time and i think its true they rely on the monthly updates to drum up some interest especially when DST is competing in a multiplayer market filled with battlepasses - its really the only thing keeping players coming back.

[goblinball]

11 minutes ago, sudoku said:

I don't really know what they can do about it though... They have done things this way for a long time and i think its true they rely on the monthly updates to drum up some interest especially when DST is competing in a multiplayer market filled with battlepasses - its really the only thing keeping players coming back.

I think I still prefer the monthly updates even if there’s some content that is bad until a later update, because it’s easier to provide feedback and mess around with the betas that way. It also just makes it easier to learn and get used to the new content. Imagine if all of the Return of Them content released in one massive update; trying to provide feedback on the beta would be ridiculous since there’s so much content to digest, and it’d alienate a lot of the players since there’d be sooooo much new stuff.