Planar Damage is a mistake.

[Theukon-dos]

2 hours ago, goatt said:

So, let me clarify. You can say “I play enough video games to know how I would feel when I see the numbers or equations”. But people usually don’t know. That’s why new trendy tech and trends are usually unpredictable.

???

2 hours ago, goatt said:

That’s why bad looking numbers aren’t necessarily bad feeling games. The new items aren’t designed to defeat brightshade or grazers. They are for future bosses. The current state of the beta is unfinished. So we don’t have any first-hand experience to judge whether is a good design.

The issue isn't that they're "Bad" numbers. It's that they're the same numbers. As I have said countless times before. 

2 hours ago, goatt said:

This discussion reminds me a lot of what I see in religion subreddit debates. They want people to agree with them based on their anecdotal experience and speculations.

You said “we are not shooting in the dark”, but you basically are. I didn’t read the whole thread, but in the op, I didn’t see any reference to other games that use the same mechanics and become unfun, which would be a good evidence to support the “bad design” argument. But there is no comparison to other games of same design.

1. So you admit that you didn't try to understand my argument. And that you're arguing against me anyways. Blindly defending this mechanic without actually understanding why people dislike it.

2. I didn't give any examples both because I didn't feel they where needed, and because I have never played a game that forced players to use new equipment without actually making them stronger. Likely because developers quickly figured out that it leads to dissatisfaction and a lack of fun in games. 

3. It's not a shot in the dark. We have planar damage and defense. We know how the mechanic works. We may not have anything to use it properly against yet. But If I gave you an unlabled box, and whatever was in said box smelled like a duck and sounded like a duck. Then you can be pretty damn confident that there's a duck in the box. 

2 hours ago, goatt said:

In the argument of faux-progression. Nearly all video game progression is artificial. Number manipulation is not the key to reduce faux feel. Meaning behind actions is. Actions with meanings and achievements increase engagement. That’s why I’m reluctant to voice opinion about something that doesn’t exist yet. No real beta content to test this.

Uhhhh, no.

In Terraria, you fight the Eye of Cthulhu with a golden bow. It's not too hard, but still a challenge because your damage is low even compared to the eye's ~5000 HP. Fast forward 5 hours later, and you're now tearing the Eye of Cthulhu to shreds because you progressed and got the much stronger Hellwing Bow. This is what Brightshade equipment lacks. It doesn't make earlier parts of your progression easier like... basically every other game in existence. It only serves to make the player stop using the Dark Swords and Football helmets they where using. Not because they've fallen behind on damage or ability. But because Klei's tired of people using the damned things.

2 hours ago, goatt said:

In the argument of homogenize, it’s obviously not true, I think?. Yes, their difference become smaller. But there is still huge difference in their final damage after planar-reduction. It’s extremely easy to see using numbers, but I didn’t see any numbers. (I also haven’t do the math myself, so I can also be wrong. But I have a hunch that I’m not. Prove me wrong).

In hindsight, I could have just loaded up a damage indecator mod to test it that way. But I do have the numbers now. And against planar enemies, Wolfgang's damage modifier goes from 2x damage to only about 1.3x damage. Which is still an improvement, obviously. But it's still punishing the character who deals a lot of damage for doing a lot of damage. 

2 hours ago, goatt said:

In the argument of obscurity, it’s just more reading on wiki. I’ve personally never seen anyone actually able to figure out the regular armor reduction of grass suits by simply doing math during busy fights. We nearly never try to read numbers during a fight to calculate how armor works. We almost always just read wiki.

1. Obscurity isn't an issue anymore, as I disclosed in the original post. 

2. "Just read the wiki" Is already the games biggest problem, and should NEVER be a way to justify such a mechanic. 

3. You don't need specific numbers for armor because it's an extremely simple mechanic and isn't hard to figure out. Armor = Less damage, better armor = even less damage. Unlike Planar Damage, which is an extremely obtuse mechanic to figure out, to the point that Klei added the punching bag just so that players could make heads or tails of it.

2 hours ago, goatt said:

I was looking for anything substantial rather than opinions based on numbers.

Plus, I’m not stoping anyone to express their dislike.

Define "substantial". I like to think I gave quite the thorough explanation on why the mechanic is unsatisfying. And given that you've already indecated that you're unwilling to waver on your mindset for any reason; as indicated by the fact that you got involved without even reading my full post; I suspect that "substantial evidence" for you would be something beyond reason. 

2 hours ago, goatt said:

I’m really passive and reluctant to participate. But I feel pressured to explain and clarify more. So here it is. To be clear, I didn’t read most of the comments here. I only read the op and last few replies to me.

Imagine, claiming that someone is wrong, and having to actually explain why that's the case. 

[bloopah]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

Not because they've fallen behind on damage or ability. But because Klei's tired of people using the damned things.

With the irony being that they could also make people stop using them by making them fall behind on damage/ability in the late-game, like every weapon progression in any game.

And like it has been said countless times before, sidegrades to Dark Sword/Ham Bat are getting really repetitive.

[goatt]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

So you admit that you didn't try to understand my argument.

???

 

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

Define "substantial".

Anything but numbers. In video game, we should talk about experience. You only wanted to talk about numbers and how they would affect them.

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

you're unwilling to waver on your mindset for any reason

???

 

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

3 hours ago, goatt said:

I’m really passive and reluctant to participate. But I feel pressured to explain and clarify more. So here it is. To be clear, I didn’t read most of the comments here. I only read the op and last few replies to me.

Imagine, claiming that someone is wrong, and having to actually explain why that's the case. 

I'm tired in real life. I just want to reply a "yes or no" or "like or dislike" in extremely simply text without engaging.

The biggest problem is that you have numbers, but no experience in it. Thinking number can explain everything to a human is a misunderstanding of human psychology.

[Theukon-dos]

8 minutes ago, goatt said:

Anything but numbers. In video game, we should talk about experience. You only wanted to talk about numbers and how they would affect them.

8 minutes ago, goatt said:

The biggest problem is that you have numbers, but no experience in it. Thinking number can explain everything to a human is a misunderstanding of human psychology.

Problem is, numbers are the experience in this case. Planar Damage doesn't change anything about how the character fights. Bosses aren't going to become the best fights Klei's ever designed because of Planar Damage. We know this because we already have the mechanic. There would be no difference between the new bosses if planar damage didn't exist. So the experience for the player is that nothing will change at all, unless they're playing Wigfrid or Wolfgang. In which case things get noticeably worse for them. 

[goatt]

56 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Problem is, numbers are the experience in this case.

Simple example. There are hundreds of clicker idle games out there, all of them the same (similar) mechanics that grow the numbers exponentially. But their experience differs drastically depending on the implementation (namely, graphics, leveling, progression, prestiges, side quests, main stories, etc).

The base mechanics in DST are not unique either, but the game is distinctive. Implementation is the key.

Back to the main topic here. Every new bosses we have are not unique either mechanic-wise. Take the newest daywalker as example, nothing new, really. But people feel it's a different boss. Why? Because of the implementation (referencing to paragraph 1) that changed the game experience.

Current mechanics behind the new weapons don't negatively impact current content available to testing players. I believe the negative impact it allegedly have is still yet to come.

One more point, there is easy backup plan. If it's so bad, we can always tune the numbers. For example, currently, the tuned damage reduction has minimum of 0.5. Therefore, we have the freedom to give it an extra multiplier of (1, 2) to tune up the damage without breaking any current rules while still preserve the planar defense characteristics.

Why do I still talking about planar defense characteristics? Because this is a soft gate keeping. Just like you cannot fight fuel weaver without fighting 2 other bosses, and you cannot fight cc without doing side quests. This new unknown boss has this soft gate keeping which is optional but encouraged.

Gate keeping is the characteristics of non-raid final bosses. And this time, it maybe more than 1 boss in that quest. Isn't it just the old fashion Klei way. The number 68 is their preferred cap for base damage, I believe.

[Atkvin]

On 4/21/2023 at 2:17 AM, Theukon-dos said:

Problem 1: Faux-Progression. 

Despite all the hoops you have to go through to get Brightshade gear, it is; for all intents and purposes, just another dark sword side-grade. And I only have to ask, why? 

In just about every game ever made, progression systems make earlier parts of progression easier as you go along. And this is for a very good reason, that being to make the player feel like they actually got somewhere. So making a specific damage type to make "harder" enemies without actually making them harder or earlier enemies easier is extremely un-productive and basically only exists to make people stop using Football helmets and dark swords.

Was rereading the OP and ruminating on this part. In whatever direction the devs take this mechanic, beyond just bosses, likely also making more harder, post-CC corruptions of everyday structures and mobs we've grown used to -- it does feel like a shame that it comes at the cost of eclipsing old resources the playerbase have grown fond of, especially if it starts a whole chain of new planar equipment that basically resets progression.

I was wondering about, what if instead of being exclusive to/being a trait at all of Brightshade equipment, players were able to / only access planar damage and defense through a temporary buff. This could be done through an aoe spell casted from the Brightshade staff, which would allow players to use both their traditional weapons and grant minions the same effects to take on planar enemies. This would cement the planar damage/defense mechanic as a buff to existing equipment, at wherever stage of progression the player is at, rather than homogenizing their equipment and strategies.

I also feel that characters with damage modifiers should continue to be negated, IF their damage is blocked by planar defense. They shouldn't be able to just brute-force pound away at planar enemies stacking all the damage modifiers they have on it if they are unable to understand and correctly engage with the mechanic, which would worsen their experience once more planar enemies and bosses come out. But once they are using planar equipment / in my rework, have the planar buff, their damage modifiers should not be affected at all! Harder content shouldn't need to negate the combat-oriented perks of some characters just for kicks, as pointed out.

[Vinja]

I think that the idea for planar damage is simply bad but I’m tired of arguing about it. Klei has stated their stance and regardless of the feedback we give they’re hell-bent on seeing it through. Until the next beta, I suppose. It’s nice to see that we’re not alone in our skepticism of the mechanics, though. 
 

I really hope Klei has an ace up their sleeve.

[minespatch]

I'll repeat again, Klei should explain what Planar Damage is in gameplay mechanics. The fact we need a thread to theorize what it is shows that the concept needs improvement.

[sudoku]

15 minutes ago, minespatch said:

I'll repeat again, Klei should explain what Planar Damage is in gameplay mechanics. The fact we need a thread to theorize what it is shows that the concept needs improvement.

someone pester them in the next rhymes with play for more info

[GelatinousCube]

12 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

 

2. I didn't give any examples both because I didn't feel they where needed, and because I have never played a game that forced players to use new equipment without actually making them stronger. Likely because developers quickly figured out that it leads to dissatisfaction and a lack of fun in games. 

Not a perfect example but in Horizon Forbidden West in the arena challenges, the last challenge in each set forces you to use a specific outfit, set of weapons and valor surge that are basically guaranteed at that point in the game (and especially late game if you want to do the arena) to be FAR worse than your actual set up. 

These challenges are almost universally despised and the vast majority of players change the difficulty to an easier one to get those challenges done. They're also timed btw with crazy short timers that you probably would struggle to meet even with your actual gear/loadout. 

They aren't fun and basically made some of what could have been the best arena fights and content into the game into complete nightmares that you basically do once then don't bother with again. 

It's easily the biggest and most brought up issue with the game (other than maybe machine strike but that's just people hating on a mimigame that I really like).

[Yuuko]

11 hours ago, GelatinousCube said:

Not a perfect example but in Horizon Forbidden West in the arena challenges, the last challenge in each set forces you to use a specific outfit, set of weapons and valor surge that are basically guaranteed at that point in the game (and especially late game if you want to do the arena) to be FAR worse than your actual set up. 

 

Similarly in Monster Hunter they have Arena quests where you get a specific loadout that is usually sub-par to out right bad.  Some people do enjoy these because they act as a sort of puzzle (how do I defeat this quest with garbage gear under the time threshold) but they are 100% instanced.  Completing these is only for the pride of having completed them, you rarely have any in-game equipment unlocked via these quests.  If you do have an in game equip from it, its usually easy to achieve.  Most people skip these completely as fortunately they are situated to be optional content, but its the same as you said for that game - When people do complete these, they do not replay them.  Its a one and done experience.

Turns out - people don't like being forced to use sub-par gear (or forced to use any gear really.)  When designing a game you have to look at the character fantasy.  When someone picks Wicker, Winona, etc they are picking it to experience a certain type of play.  This is why some characters (Willow, Woodie, etc) often have reworks asked for them, they currently miss the mark of their character fantasy.  People are picking them based on their descriptions, and their game play is not living up to that description leaving the players wanting more from the experience.  The way they are going with planar damage runs counter to many character fantasies creating a really bad taste to the game.  This is why I feel almost regardless of what master plan they think this is playing into, I believe it is a bad direction.

I understand part of their design here is to put the characters on a more even footing for the final-final content, and I don't think that is wholly a bad idea... but how they are doing it is possibly one of the worst ways.  I think a better option would be to have the BS sword be a unique weapon that hits significantly harder, I'm talking 119 damage per hit, but is completely unaffected by any damage modifications.  imo this is a fitting reward for character loyalists who clear the game as Willow or Wormwood giving them the damage boost they've denied themselves through all previous content, also giving players who do swap an option that reduces the importance of damage stacking opening up their end-game options, all while NOT stepping on the toes of the mighty combat characters who have their own damage mods allowing those enjoyers to continue as they have been.

Then against planar enemies the damage of the bright sword is doubled (238) - at this point we're entering territory where a fully stacked (chili froid) Wolfgang (244) or Wanda (257) is only slightly stronger, but without full stacking they might opt into the BS sword - by choice - for the end game content which is simply scaled up to match the damage threshold of the BS sword that all characters now have available.  Planar enemies could be made unable to be wet preventing the higher electric bonus damage against them.

Key thing here - it is available.  If Wanda wants to go chili froid and continue with her clock she still could but because the floor was raised enough her damage does not break the experience.  She isn't forced to use the BS gear, but could if she wanted to.  The weapon also gains relevancy beyond the new content, becoming a genuine new feature to the game rather than only a fix made for a problem.

Spoiler

Then we need the rifts to have an interaction added that allows players to tackle them head on preventing the plant spread - there have been some suggestions on how to close the portals.  I think the best I've heard is to feed them some resources to close them, but after a certain number have been appeased it summons a boss and on defeating this boos the portal loop ends until CC is defeated again.  If you want to farm BS materials you can allow the plants to spawn, but if you don't you could head them off and end the second hound wave.

I think the end-game of DST is best situated as a position where you have conquered the constant giving you an open sandbox experience, rather than becoming further harassed until you get annoyed and quit the game.

 

[devourerofsugar]

I completely agree with the original comment. I've only seen a couple of videos of this beta's content and everything looks amazing, except for the whole planar damage mechanic. They could just make it so the new sword does the same damage as a dark sword, and have extra damage against planar enemies or something. 

[Mr Giggio]

On 4/23/2023 at 2:39 AM, goatt said:

Yes, you have your reasons, but criticizing something that doesn't exist yet and feeling so much negativity because of it is unnecessary.

I personally think planar damage and defense is a brilliant idea, mathematically, and mechanic-wise.

Thank you

[Duck986]

I'll just leave this here. First image is for Wes and Wendy, second is for Wolfgang, comparing Dark Sword/Glass Cutter and Brightsword

[Mike23Ua]

After having played around with the new update for quite some time I strongly disagree that Planar damage is a Mistake, I really like the concept of needing a unique set of weapons/armor/gear to deal with a new threat.

As a Wendy Main it directly nerfs just using Abigail to deal with my problems, and it incentivizes actually interacting with the new content to farm pure brilliance & husks for gear- Assuming that more BS tools and items will be added later, I like that I can’t just use a tried and tiresome method of dealing with all my problems (such as Winona catapults or Bunnymen farms)

As someone who grew up playing the original Pokémon on Gameboy, I admire the concept of Strengths/Weaknesses.

I think it’s so cool lore-wise that this new threat has defensive abilities against your arsenal.

Its like playing an Alien game where you start out with human weapons that are highly ineffective, but once you kill the aliens and take THEIR overpowered guns and use them against themselves.. the tables have turned.

Some people don’t like that Klei is limiting their quote “creative freedom”

But I’ve watched a million movies where the earthlings known arsenal was ineffective against alien invaders & the only way to overcome them was by using something the aliens weren’t prepared for (most likely their own weapons..) against them.

It’s thematically fitting and I can only hope even more new bizarre alien toys get added over-time.

[ALCRD]

Mistake or not people will always find a way to exploit it:

Who need's Abigail or Wormwood's Bramble traps when you have some poop and OP Brightshades ..

 

[Mike23Ua]

3 hours ago, ALCRD said:

Mistake or not people will always find a way to exploit it:

Who need's Abigail or Wormwood's Bramble traps when you have some poop and OP Brightshades ..

 

I mean I understand that you’re trying to make Walter suck a little less.. but this particular mechanic exists in the game to go with the Brightshade Staff. I’ve actually used this to lure Dragonfly to Brightshades then just Spam the staff on the Brightshades to kill her (which was EPIC!) the only problem I had was that the Brightshades were almost out of her range so she kept flying off to return back home a lot. This isn’t a glitch, and it sure as heck doesn’t need to be Nerfed/patched- Brightshades are Awesome!

[ALCRD]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I mean I understand that you’re trying to make Walter suck a little less.. but this particular mechanic exists in the game to go with the Brightshade Staff. I’ve actually used this to lure Dragonfly to Brightshades then just Spam the staff on the Brightshades to kill her (which was EPIC!) the only problem I had was that the Brightshades were almost out of her range so she kept flying off to return back home a lot. This isn’t a glitch, and it sure as heck doesn’t need to be Nerfed/patched- Brightshades are Awesome!

Poop costs less than Brightshade Staff tho.

[Yuuko]

12 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I mean I understand that you’re trying to make Walter suck a little less.. but this particular mechanic exists in the game to go with the Brightshade Staff. I’ve actually used this to lure Dragonfly to Brightshades then just Spam the staff on the Brightshades to kill her (which was EPIC!) the only problem I had was that the Brightshades were almost out of her range so she kept flying off to return back home a lot. This isn’t a glitch, and it sure as heck doesn’t need to be Nerfed/patched- Brightshades are Awesome!

If you put dfly to sleep her tether point re-sets and she can stick around longer.  You might want to do 2 sleeps as you lure her to the plants so she is far enough away from the lava ponds that she doesn't even try to go to them.  (she will still spawn lavae though.)

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

I feel like the whole "if the dmg increase is too much, increase boss health" part just points to the bigger problem of boss health not scaling per characters.

[Theukon-dos]

On 5/15/2023 at 1:27 PM, Mike23Ua said:

After having played around with the new update for quite some time I strongly disagree that Planar damage is a Mistake, I really like the concept of needing a unique set of weapons/armor/gear to deal with a new threat.

The problem is that the gear isn't unique. It's just the gear we already had with fancier textures and slightly less penelty

On 5/15/2023 at 1:27 PM, Mike23Ua said:

As a Wendy Main it directly nerfs just using Abigail to deal with my problems, and it incentivizes actually interacting with the new content to farm pure brilliance & husks for gear- Assuming that more BS tools and items will be added later, I like that I can’t just use a tried and tiresome method of dealing with all my problems (such as Winona catapults or Bunnymen farms)

But isn't Abigail supposed to be the entire point of playing Wendy? You could have the exact same effect by just playing Wilson instead. Sure, making players leave their comfort zone is always good, but that shouldn't be done by homogonizing the entire cast.

On 5/15/2023 at 1:27 PM, Mike23Ua said:

As someone who grew up playing the original Pokémon on Gameboy, I admire the concept of Strengths/Weaknesses.

Yeah, I do like the alignment system. But the planar damage itself isn't nearly comparable to pokemon.

On 5/15/2023 at 1:27 PM, Mike23Ua said:

I think it’s so cool lore-wise that this new threat has defensive abilities against your arsenal.

Lore wise? Sure. Gameplay wise? WHYYYYYY

On 5/15/2023 at 1:27 PM, Mike23Ua said:

Its like playing an Alien game where you start out with human weapons that are highly ineffective, but once you kill the aliens and take THEIR overpowered guns and use them against themselves.. the tables have turned.

Except when you use those "Overpowered" weapons against enemies that you could already fight, you discover that they're not doing any more damage than you where already doing. In fact, depending on which character you where playing, then you'd probably notice that you're doing even less damage with the alien guns compared to the human guns. So the alien weapons where never overpowered in the first place, it's just that for whatever reason they had an innate resistance to human guns.

On 5/15/2023 at 1:27 PM, Mike23Ua said:

Some people don’t like that Klei is limiting their quote “creative freedom”

Y'know, hard to rebute a point when it has nothing to do with anything you said originally. 

On 5/15/2023 at 1:27 PM, Mike23Ua said:

But I’ve watched a million movies where the earthlings known arsenal was ineffective against alien invaders & the only way to overcome them was by using something the aliens weren’t prepared for (most likely their own weapons..) against them.

It’s thematically fitting and I can only hope even more new bizarre alien toys get added over-time.

See above