Planar Damage is a mistake.

[Ryusuta]

5 hours ago, goblinball said:

I think I still prefer the monthly updates even if there’s some content that is bad until a later update, because it’s easier to provide feedback and mess around with the betas that way. It also just makes it easier to learn and get used to the new content. Imagine if all of the Return of Them content released in one massive update; trying to provide feedback on the beta would be ridiculous since there’s so much content to digest, and it’d alienate a lot of the players since there’d be sooooo much new stuff.

How long ago did Moon Quay come out? And it's still one of the worst updates they ever had. This idea of "make it first, fix it later" has already kinda fallen at the first hurdle.

[Duck986]

1 hour ago, Ryusuta said:

How long ago did Moon Quay come out? And it's still one of the worst updates they ever had. This idea of "make it first, fix it later" has already kinda fallen at the first hurdle.

What's wrong with it in terms of implementation though? Except bananas growing in winter, I think it's pretty ok - the curse is controllable, and the portal is sort of useful.

[maxwell_winters]

1 hour ago, Ryusuta said:

How long ago did Moon Quay come out? And it's still one of the worst updates they ever had. This idea of "make it first, fix it later" has already kinda fallen at the first hurdle.

Moon Quay isn't a horrible update. Docks are amazing, banana bushes and monkey tails are super useful, cannons are quite good. Even though one mechanic turned into a complete trainwreck, it's not the reason to call the whole update bad. A lot of ideas in it worked. 

[Theukon-dos]

1 hour ago, Duck986 said:

What's wrong with it in terms of implementation though? Except bananas growing in winter, I think it's pretty ok - the curse is controllable, and the portal is sort of useful.

Pirate Raids are an extremely annoying mechanic that; instead of fixing; Klei just made into something that barely happens. Plus, the Moon Quey only spawns at a single location. But unlike Crab King or Lunar Island, there's effectively 0 indecation on where the damned thing actually is. Meaning that you can very easily spend hours looking for the Moon Quey without finding it.

[bloopah]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

Meaning that you can very easily spend hours looking for the Moon Quey without finding it.

Unless, of course, you know that it is guaranteed to spawn in a square that spans the entire map, which reduces the time spent looking for it to hours-1.

I think a nice solution would be to have a X Marks the Spot spawn near shore in Summer which reveals the location of the Moon Quay, either by showing it directly with a special Map Scroll like Pearl Island or with a "Banana-flavored Compass" that points to the Queen.

[Ryusuta]

5 hours ago, Duck986 said:

What's wrong with it in terms of implementation though? Except bananas growing in winter, I think it's pretty ok - the curse is controllable, and the portal is sort of useful.

The Accursed Trinkets punish you for winning the fight. That is absolutely insane. They're a terrible idea in general, but the way they should be implemented is by only attaching themselves to you if you picked one up to start with. At least then you have some input on it.

[Theukon-dos]

4 hours ago, bloopah said:

Unless, of course, you know that it is guaranteed to spawn in a square that spans the entire map, which reduces the time spent looking for it to hours-1.

I think a nice solution would be to have a X Marks the Spot spawn near shore in Summer which reveals the location of the Moon Quay, either by showing it directly with a special Map Scroll like Pearl Island or with a "Banana-flavored Compass" that points to the Queen.

Personally, I'd make it so that the Moon Quey pirates had banners attached to sea stacks around their territory (any area you could be raided in), with more banners spawning the closer you got to their home base. 

[Hornete]

10 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Personally, I'd make it so that the Moon Quey pirates had banners attached to sea stacks around their territory (any area you could be raided in), with more banners spawning the closer you got to their home base. 

Personally(or in addition because I think the two could work together :>). Fleeing pirate raids actually going in the direction of the island give or take a few degrees of variance would be interesting me-thinks. Allows for the player to quickly locate the general location of the island by studying which angle they took off in.

I remember it was the first thing that popped in some friends and I's heads when the update first came out. Was saddened to see the angle they flee in has no actual relevance to the location of the island.

[-Variant]

10 minutes ago, Hornete said:

Fleeing pirate raids actually going in the direction of the island give

TTTHIIIISSSS AUGUUGHGHGHG

I want this so bad! It's such a cool way to teach people where to go! Of course they'd flee to their stash hideout! Augh!

[Theukon-dos]

On 4/21/2023 at 5:28 PM, Catteflyterpill said:

Klei's stated that this update is supposed to be an entry point for all the upcoming end game content. If that's the case, then yeah you are asking Klei to ditch a year's worth of plans by removing the mechanic entirely, if this is supposed to be integral to the content we're going to see it's not a sunken cost fallacy that people are making suggestions to make this accessible. Especially if it's a big part of the plans, it makes more sense that Klei would want to let the community have a taste of the foundation before they build on the mechanics of planar damage. 

Klei comes up with Planar Damage, balance bosses around planar damage.
Planar Damage is bad.

Klei gets rid of Planar Damage and buffs the damage of the Brightshade Blade by 50%
Klei buffs the health of all enemies and bosses balanced around Planar Damage by 50% 

Problem solved, nothing needs scrapped, and all is right in the world. 

22 hours ago, sudoku said:

I think this is a result of the way the have built their content pipeline. It clearly worked much better when character refreshes were woven in between content updates because of their smaller scale which allowed extra time for content updates to be worked on in the background. 

I don't really know what they can do about it though... They have done things this way for a long time and i think its true they rely on the monthly updates to drum up some interest especially when DST is competing in a multiplayer market filled with battlepasses - its really the only thing keeping players coming back.

Wouldn't be sustainable. But for this update specifically, Klei probably could have padded things out with another QoL update. 

[GelatinousCube]

I'm on console so haven't tried the beta however from everything I've read on the forums I'm not looking forward to this update at all right now...

Seems overly complex and this whole planar damage/armor just honestly seems super unnecessary and a band aid fix to damage multipliers etc. 

Also, seriously? Another update with an event that has the potential to do serious damage to megabases and undo hours of work and play time. I still hate moon storms and have no idea how they never gave us an item or structure to stop them appearing in certain areas/biomes. Yeah they made them a little less chaotic/damaging but they're still an issue and something you need to clear asap if you have any pens with mobs etc in your base. Now any plants or berry bushes or whatever in your base can be some sort of spawn point for weird plant enemies that again can damage your megabase? Lame. 

I get that any big update that adds random events across our world's is going to be an issue and clash with megabases and it isn't so simple but there's gotta be a better middle ground than we have now. 

[Cassielu]

38 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Problem solved, nothing needs scrapped, and all is right in the world. 

All is right for Wolfgang/Wanda and switched Warly, and rest of the world are crying.

[Theukon-dos]

Just now, Cassielu said:

All is right for Wolfgang/Wanda and switched Warly, and rest of the world are crying.

Why? Everyone else benefits from more damage. And those who don't like it wouldn't like Planar Damage either.

The only character who completely, 100% benefits from the Planar Damage mechanic is Wes. And Wes doesn't deserve nice things.

[goatt]

You really have nothing to hate about it, yet.

Yes, you have your reasons, but criticizing something that doesn't exist yet and feeling so much negativity because of it is unnecessary.

I personally think planar damage and defense is a brilliant idea, mathematically, and mechanic-wise.

[Ryusuta]

30 minutes ago, goatt said:

You really have nothing to hate about it, yet.

Yes, you have your reasons, but criticizing something that doesn't exist yet and feeling so much negativity because of it is unnecessary.

I personally think planar damage and defense is a brilliant idea, mathematically, and mechanic-wise.

You really have nothing to like about it, yet.

Yes, you have your reasons, but praising something that doesn't exist yet and feeling so much excitement because of it is unnecessary.

I personally think planar damage and defense is a terrible idea, mathematically, and mechanic-wise.

You see where the flaw in your thinking is here? When someone is doing a thread that is explicitly speculation on something, it is obviously done with the understanding that we're working off the limited knowledge and experience we do have.

If they manage to convince me that this mechanic will be implemented better than it was in the Beta, I will be the first on-board to say so. I've admitted I was wrong or too hasty judging something in the past and I'm not afraid to do so again. But based on the information we currently have it doesn't seem like a good direction for the game to take.

[goatt]

17 minutes ago, Ryusuta said:

You really have nothing to like about it, yet.

I only used 1 sentence to counter all the criticisms. Cuz all voice from different sides needs to be heard despite I don't think I have any real reason to like it, yet, like you said. That's why I decided to comment for my side.

But in general, I think people shouldn't forget they are speculating when they are speculating.

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Klei comes up with Planar Damage, balance bosses around planar damage.
Planar Damage is bad.

Klei gets rid of Planar Damage and buffs the damage of the Brightshade Blade by 50%
Klei buffs the health of all enemies and bosses balanced around Planar Damage by 50% 

Problem solved, nothing needs scrapped, and all is right in the world. 

Wouldn't be sustainable. But for this update specifically, Klei probably could have padded things out with another QoL update. 

I like the idea of giving the weapon higher damage BUT not allowing its damage to be boosted.  In this way players who do use damage multis would just use the old gear but players who like to main a character that doesn't have multis, and don't swap to gain access to them would have a way to still access a damage boost for themselves.  I think around 80-101 damage is a good range, and because it doesn't stack with damage boosters makes it a fairly unique weapon.

As for the armor - I think making anything ignore armor is a really BAD idea in general.  Our armor in this game is 80-95% damage reduction.  Ignoring it completely is effectively a 5-20x multiplier which is absolutely ridiculous!!!  Like if I forget to put on my armor and tank 100 damage that's on me, but if I'm wearing 95% reduction and I take 100 damage that's just crazy for this game.  Also it makes it really confusing because for monster with planar defense you need planar damage to hit them, but for players taking planar damage you need planar defense to reduce it...  Not a good inconsistency.  They already released the pure horror armor set, why is DARK armor not the protection for LUNAR enemies and vice versa?  Why are LUNAR weapons required for both LUNAR enemies and DARK enemies?

Like take this back to the drawing board b/c it does not make sense.

[Ryusuta]

Just now, goatt said:

I only used 1 sentence to counter all the criticisms. Cuz all voice from different sides needs to be heard despite I don't think I have any real reason to like it, yet, like you said. That's why I decided to comment.

But in general, I think people shouldn't forget they are speculating when they are speculating.

That is fair. And I am all for an optimistic outlook on things. I 100% don't want to ruin someone's excitement for a new update.

I just need to be honest when I feel like a game is making a mistake, because I don't think telling them that a major part of the update looks ready for prime time when it currently looks pretty undercooked at best is a good idea for anyone involved.

[Yuuko]

12 minutes ago, goatt said:

I only used 1 sentence to counter all the criticisms. Cuz all voice from different sides needs to be heard despite I don't think I have any real reason to like it, yet, like you said. That's why I decided to comment for my side.

But in general, I think people shouldn't forget they are speculating when they are speculating.

The last thing any developer, designer, writer, or really any creative should want are a bunch of yes men who can't tell them when they're on the wrong track.  A lot of this may seem harsh, but its a game we're all passionate about - Klei and the players.  We've seen many beta patches that are misses, and when enough good feedback is given Klei has their chance to course correct.  They did this with Wendy and Wolfgang reworks to great effect delivering much better reworks then initially planned out.

No one wants Klei to just stop building on the game, but Klei isn't some GOD entity who always knows the correct direction to take.  A lot of ideas get thrown around in creative meetings, and surely they have some vision for how this is going to work - but just check the patch notes for how many times they had to go add the shadow tag to a monster...  Its very easy for things to get overlooked and that is exactly why the beta server is important and Klei always runs it.  That is exactly why feedback is important, especially when its pointing out the flaws in the system.

Really a yes man who just says "its all good, don't say anything bad and trust Klei" is the worst thing for all of us, players and Klei.  Klei doesn't need some white knight defending them against honest criticism.  They know how to manage this, which is why they don't post much in these threads - they known its best to let the players hammer it out, sort through the feedback and make their decisions.

If you like the system, tell us what you like about it.  Just saying you think something is awesome has no meaning, add detail b/c I see nothing about planar damage that is in any way mathematically or mechanically "brilliant."

[goatt]

43 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

a yes man

Just because I said yes this time, doesn’t make me a yes man. I said no strongly to the new crafting menu, and I still don’t like it. 
 

Just because you are passionate and you are saying no, doesn’t mean your No should weigh more than other yeses and nos.

 

don’t over-generalize other people, especially people on the other side of the argument. Don’t do “them vs us”. And don’t try to fight everyone of “them” to bring “them” down.

Plus, there isn’t really any argument about the game, only argument about speculations, which I do not intend to participate.

I’m only here to add more my voice to this chaotic soup. I purposefully skip bringing up my reasons to avoid arguments.

I think you can just browse my comment and leave me alone. And don’t call me “yes man”.

You can instead ask me why I personally “like the update” first, to which I will politely refuse to reply to avoid participating in this topic.

[Yuuko]

Look at you, trying to be all holier then thou lol.  You don't like the crafting menu?  What if I said

1 hour ago, goatt said:

You really have nothing to hate about it, yet.

Yes, you have your reasons, but criticizing something that doesn't exist yet and feeling so much negativity because of it is unnecessary.

I personally think planar damage and defense the crafting menu is a brilliant idea, mathematically, and mechanic-wise.

?  I mean, you want to give a very overly-broad defense of something, don't be surprised when you get an overly-generalized rebuttal.  I don't care if you like planar damage.  You liking something is not a factor to me.  I don't expect you to care if I don't like planar damage.  I've detailed why I don't like planar damage though, and if you tell me why you think planar damage is mathematically or mechanically brilliant I would read it and consider what you have to say.

[goatt]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

I mean, you want to give a very overly-broad defense of something, don't be surprised when you get an overly-generalized rebuttal.

Ummm. No.

I said, nothing real happened yet. I didn’t touch any of the arguments.

And then I said I personally like it, and didn’t give any reasons again.

I just want people to scroll past my comment and have an impression that it’s not all dislikes.

[Ryusuta]

3 hours ago, goatt said:

Ummm. No.

I said, nothing real happened yet. I didn’t touch any of the arguments.

And then I said I personally like it, and didn’t give any reasons again.

I just want people to scroll past my comment and have an impression that it’s not all dislikes.

Let's be clear on something: It's not that "nothing" happened. We're not just shooting in the dark here. The BETA happened and we're responding to what we saw in that. Yes, it's subject to change, but that isn't the same thing as just making up an opinion out of whole cloth.

[Theukon-dos]

8 hours ago, goatt said:

You really have nothing to hate about it, yet.

Yes, you have your reasons, but criticizing something that doesn't exist yet and feeling so much negativity because of it is unnecessary.

I personally think planar damage and defense is a brilliant idea, mathematically, and mechanic-wise.

If you make a poor-quality foundation, an architect can tell you that the house built upon it will crumble before it's ever built. Or if you use the wrong kind of flour, a baker can tell how awful your cookies will be before they even enter the oven. 

Yes, there's very little to judge the mechanic on currently. But my problem isn't the lack of things to use the mechanic with. It's the fundamental nature of the mechanic that I dislike and am arguing is bad. It's not brilliant, it's not a great mechanic. It's convoluted, clunky, and unnecessary for all the reasons I've been listing for the last 3 days. 

[goatt]

3 hours ago, Ryusuta said:

Yes, it's subject to change, but that isn't the same thing as just making up an opinion out of whole cloth.

Ok, I think my avoidance is not effective once I started to voice. I was sleepy last night.

So, let me clarify. You can say “I play enough video games to know how I would feel when I see the numbers or equations”. But people usually don’t know. That’s why new trendy tech and trends are usually unpredictable.

That’s why bad looking numbers aren’t necessarily bad feeling games. The new items aren’t designed to defeat brightshade or grazers. They are for future bosses. The current state of the beta is unfinished. So we don’t have any first-hand experience to judge whether is a good design.

This discussion reminds me a lot of what I see in religion subreddit debates. They want people to agree with them based on their anecdotal experience and speculations.

You said “we are not shooting in the dark”, but you basically are. I didn’t read the whole thread, but in the op, I didn’t see any reference to other games that use the same mechanics and become unfun, which would be a good evidence to support the “bad design” argument. But there is no comparison to other games of same design.

In the argument of faux-progression. Nearly all video game progression is artificial. Number manipulation is not the key to reduce faux feel. Meaning behind actions is. Actions with meanings and achievements increase engagement. That’s why I’m reluctant to voice opinion about something that doesn’t exist yet. No real beta content to test this.

In the argument of homogenize, it’s obviously not true, I think?. Yes, their difference become smaller. But there is still huge difference in their final damage after planar-reduction. It’s extremely easy to see using numbers, but I didn’t see any numbers. (I also haven’t do the math myself, so I can also be wrong. But I have a hunch that I’m not. Prove me wrong).

In the argument of obscurity, it’s just more reading on wiki. I’ve personally never seen anyone actually able to figure out the regular armor reduction of grass suits by simply doing math during busy fights. We nearly never try to read numbers during a fight to calculate how armor works. We almost always just read wiki.

I was looking for anything substantial rather than opinions based on numbers.

Plus, I’m not stoping anyone to express their dislike.

I’m really passive and reluctant to participate. But I feel pressured to explain and clarify more. So here it is. To be clear, I didn’t read most of the comments here. I only read the op and last few replies to me.

@Theukon-dos see my reply I posted 1 sec ago.