Planar Damage is a mistake.

[Theukon-dos]

Alright look. I'm not going to sugar coat it. By every sense of the word, Planar Damage (and in turn, Planar Defense) is an awful mechanic that actively makes post-CC content worse. I've discussed why this is in a few different post, but it feels appropriate to make a dedicated topic on the matter. So, why is Planar Damage so bad?

 

Problem 1: Faux-Progression. 

Despite all the hoops you have to go through to get Brightshade gear, it is; for all intents and purposes, just another dark sword side-grade. And I only have to ask, why? 

In just about every game ever made, progression systems make earlier parts of progression easier as you go along. And this is for a very good reason, that being to make the player feel like they actually got somewhere. So making a specific damage type to make "harder" enemies without actually making them harder or earlier enemies easier is extremely un-productive and basically only exists to make people stop using Football helmets and dark swords.

Admittedly, I do understand this on the (player) armor side of things. Armor values in DST are already so absurd; given that the baseline is 80% DR and goes upto a whopping 95% DR. But Weapon Damage? Really? That's not already so extreme that it couldn't go any higher. 

I know the latest beta made Brightshade armor give Brightshade weapons a damage boost, but is that so gamebreaking as to where it can't be part of the weapon itself?

It doesn't have to be a massive boost to damage. One argument I've seen in favor of the Planar Damage mechanics is that it keeps pre-planar fights from being trivialized. Which simply doesn't have to be the case. Easier, certainly. But not trivialized. If we where to assume that a 50% damage increase would be the baseline compared to pre-CC weapons (IE Brightshade Sword would 102 damage as opposed to 68), which would still put the average character at a lower DPS than current Wolfgang or Wanda. And if that much damage is still too much for some people, then the bosses themselves could just get scaled up instead of keeping the weapon damage low. 

For example, if 50% Damage increase was the base line, then beating CC or enabling rifts manually could buff raid boss health bars by 25-30%, At which point:

>The damage increase on early mobs and bosses is still noticable

>Raid bosses; while easier; are still a significant challenge.

>Klei can balance Post-Brightshade mobs on this new DPS average, making the upgrades still desirable, if not necessary. 

Or they could just make Raid Bosses scale up by 50% to completely match the brightshade equipment. Who knows?

 

Problem 2: It homogonizes character choice

As I'm quite sure everyone knows by now, Planar Damage is uneffected by a character's innate damage modifiers. This obviously hurts Wolfgang and Wigfrid the most. But it also hurts any character who interacts with the damage system in a unique way at all.

>Wurt and Webber both rely mostly on minion armies, which are going to hit for a lot less against anything with Planar Defense.

>Walter's slingshot is already lauded for it's low DPS, which only gets lower against Planar Defense

>Wanda has a unique weapon that becomes nigh-unusable against Planar Defense, completely removing any sort of risk/reward from her character.

>Woodie already suffers from a lack of scaling on his Wereforms past the early game; particularly relevant for the Moose in this case. So making Moose fall off even harder than it does would not be kind to our favorite Canadian. 

>Wendy; despite having a lower base damage which actually benefits from the lack of Planar scaling, would still suffer because Abigail boosts her damage beyond what she loses; and this presumably doesn't affect planar damage either. 

>Maxwell looses a lot of damage on his puppets

>Winona's catapults become a lot less effective

>While not a character, combat beefalo loose a lot of viability late-game because they can't pierce planar defense.

>The only character who completely benefits from the Planar Damage mechanic is Wes, who doesn't deserve nice things. 

 

Admittedly a lot of these problems would still be there if it was just a matter of the late-game being balanced around higher damage; such as unique weapons and minions falling off. Plus both problems have a lot of overlap in possible solutions. But Planar Damage does still make things more complicated than they need to be. At the very least, just basing things on higher damage would immediately strike anything just related to modifiers off the list. 

 

I suspect that all this is specifically targeting Wolfgang. After all, he has far and away the highest damage modifier in the game, is often in the talks for how broken he's considered, and; last I checked; Planar Defense increased dynamically the more damage something takes, so Wolfgang is going to loose a lot more damage against it compared to other characters. And honestly, that just seems unfair. 

If someone likes a character because they're good at fighting, then it would be pretty disappointing for them if they were suddenly much less good at fighting. And if Wolfgang is; in fact; so broken that he warrents balancing an entire system around to keep in check, then I feel like you'd be better off nerfing Wolfgang directly instead of dancing around the issue. If you do that, then the issue is only going to get worse and worse over time.

Simply give him a soft damage cap that stops applying his modifier after a damage threshold is reached. Using the 102 damage I proposed earlier, then a DC of 150/hit would mean that Wolfgang would be completely unaffected the majority of the time. Only Darts or damage buffs would make Wolfgang hit the cap pre-Brightshade. Or you could make the cap 204, making it so that Wolfgang only falls off when chugging Spicy Chaud-Froid or any other ways to boost damage added in the future. 

 

Problem 3: It's an obtuse system in an already obtuse game.

This is ultimately my biggest problem with Planar Damage as a whole. Klei could make it scale with character damage, and give every character a way to apply planar damage/defense to their existing kit. But even if that where the case, Planar Damage is just really damn confusing in all honesty. 

It may seem simple enough on paper, Planar Enemies resist Non-Planar Damage and pierce Non-Planar Defense. But for most people, that's only because you had the system explained to you. When the update first dropped, people were looking at the code and where still confused as of how Planar Mechanics worked. And more importantly, Don't Starve Together is a game that actively gives the player as little information as possible.

There are no damage indicators on enemies, no tooltips to tell you a weapon's base damage, no indicator to tell if a weapon is doing more or less damage against an enemy, no indicator to tell if equipment is being boosted by gear or buffs. ect. ect. ect.

There is no reasonable way for players to ever understand how the Planar system works on their own. They certainly could figure out that "Shiny weapon good against shiny enemy". But that's really about it. No clear indicator on how only part of a weapon deals Planar Damage, that Planar Damage doesn't scale with character damage, or that Planar enemy DR increases dynamically. 

DST just doesn't have the desire to communicate this very important information to the player, or the means for them to figure it out by themselves.

All that being said though, this does only apply to the player's Planar Damage. Like with Brightshade armor's damage, I think it's a lot more reasonable in this case. It still has the problem of "not really being progression", but it's also just a lot easier to figure out than Planar Damage due to being able to see how much damage you take. Get hit by a Brightshade weed with a football helmet: Take a lot of damage. Get hit by a Brightshade weed with a Brightshade helmet: Take a lot less damage. Simple, intuitive, and easy to figure out.

UPDATE: As of the latest beta release, Klei introduced punching bags so the player can see what damage they're doing. The system itself is still confusing as hell, I maintain. But it is atleast communicated to the player now.

Conclusion: 

In total, I hope I was able to establish all the problems with the current Planar Damage mechanic. Ultimately, the best way I've put the current planar system explained is that they're designed to make us NEED them, but not WANT them (thanks @Shosuko). Which is ultimately an unfun and ungratifying way to design and balance a game. 

I would like to sidetrack to armor, however. Because as said, I do think Planar Defense is a much better system currently for the reasons I listed. And more importantly: I think it would be much a much easier system to expand and make rewarding compared to Planar Damage without simply being a flat number increase. I do have some ideas for that, but this thread has gone on long enough. If you read this far, then

1. What is wrong with you?

2. Thanks! have a gold star! (There is no gold star emoji)

Hope to see you the next time I make an overly long thread about something. 

[Dextops]

Good read and I agree with a lot of it

[Antynomity]

I'm not reading allat but the state of this beta is just a jumbled mess IMO, and the fact there's barely any communication when it comes to changes in this beta's patches (this applies to all of them but it's crucial in this ones and it seems for next betas) it just makes me sad, and the items are DOYDOY CHEEK$, not excited.

[maxwell_winters]

I'm so tired of damage discussions, so that's probably the least thing I'm gonna say on this.

40 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

I suspect that all this is specifically targeting Wolfgang.

I believe it, too. Brightshade Sword doesn't have the disadvantages of Dark Sword and Glass Cutter. I think Klei doesn't want him to use no-downside weapons to reach the maximal damage output. The thought behind it is probably "Wanna reach your maximal potential? Then get sanity food".

It seems Klei has huge issues with Wolfgang design. They probably wanted to do a complete WX rework-sized do-over but they couldn't because it would turn this community into a living hell. And they came up with planar damage to kneecap him.

[Vinja]

46 minutes ago, maxwell_winters said:

I'm so tired of damage discussions, so that's probably the least thing I'm gonna say on this.

I believe it, too. Brightshade Sword doesn't have the disadvantages of Dark Sword and Glass Cutter. I think Klei doesn't want him to use no-downside weapons to reach the maximal damage output. The thought behind it is probably "Wanna reach your maximal potential? Then get sanity food".

It seems Klei has huge issues with Wolfgang design. They probably wanted to do a complete WX rework-sized do-over but they couldn't because it would turn this community into a living hell. And they came up with planar damage to kneecap him.

If this is the case it’s pretty sad that the entire game is being balanced around a single character. Very disappointing. They neutered him so much already by dropping his speed boost, leave him alone lol.

These are exactly the same sentiments I’ve been sharing through the beta, maybe eventually if enough people make themselves heard we can get through to someone that can do something about it.

I think 102 damage is probably a bit overtuned because I don’t see klei making an entire boss scaling system over this little content drop but I do think 85 is still a good middle ground without the need to do any other major changes. 
 

Why can’t we at least try it? That’s the entire point of the beta, to experiment and get community feedback and see what happens when we try x or y. Worst case scenario it turns out to be too strong or people aren’t a fan and we dial it back to where it is currently or go another avenue with it.

[00petar00]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

For example, if 50% Damage increase was the base line, then beating CC or enabling rifts manually could buff raid boss health bars by 25-30%, At which point:

This really isn't needed and would just force players to use the new gear not just because it would have highest damage but to offset the health buffs raid bosses get.

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

Problem 2: It homogonizes character choice

As I'm quite sure everyone knows by now, Planar Damage is uneffected by a character's innate damage modifiers. This obviously hurts Wolfgang and Wigfrid the most. But it also hurts any character who interacts with the damage system in a unique way at all.

Planar damage really messes up a lot of characters and I don't think klei will make changes to every character affected and they wouldn't have time to do it in the current beta unless it is delayed. 

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

If someone likes a character because they're good at fighting, then it would be pretty disappointing for them if they were suddenly much less good at fighting. And if Wolfgang is; in fact; so broken that he warrents balancing an entire system around to keep in check, then I feel like you'd be better off nerfing Wolfgang directly instead of dancing around the issue. If you do that, then the issue is only going to get worse and worse over time.

Wolfgang isn't even the best character for combat anymore, he doesn't need nerfs nor does any other character, in this beta it looks like klei wants to have a reset on damage progression and introduce new damage scaling weapons.

 

I agree with most of what you have said, this will just confuse the players when every other weapon and armor is easy to understand once you use them.

[Bombobbit]

1 hour ago, yourAnty said:

I'm not reading allat but the state of this beta is just a jumbled mess IMO, and the fact there's barely any communication when it comes to changes in this beta's patches (this applies to all of them but it's crucial in this ones and it seems for next betas) it just makes me sad, and the items are DOYDOY CHEEK$, not excited.

By reading your comment i just noticed that Klei is basically ignoring us in this beta, all the complains about the shovel just made it convert into a golden shovel/hoe with x2.5 durability, no interesting mechanic or anything...

[CyberSkink]

7 minutes ago, Bombobbit said:

By reading your comment i just noticed that Klei is basically ignoring us in this beta, all the complains about the shovel just made it convert into a golden shovel/hoe with x2.5 durability, no interesting mechanic or anything...

I hate to say it... but I think you're right. Klei is really dropping the ball right now.

[Electroely]

I'm loving the update so far. We got new resources to collect, improved tools to make out of them and a multi-hit staff to tackle some of the existing challenges in a new way like the Ancient Fuelweaver and the Moonstorm, which is about what I've been hoping for from an update for a long time. We haven't gotten new tools since the addition of the Moon Glass Axe. Even if the new combat mechanics were terrible, I wouldn't mind, but they aren't any bad at all! I think Klei did a good job giving us new stuff to try and set up future content

I think Planar damage & defense exist to both increase the difficulty by making necessary combat equipment more specific to get, and nerfing the absurd damage multipliers we've had access to in a long time without throwing off the current balance of the game.

For some players, it'd be an outrage if we got some limiter on multipliers like Spicy Volt Goat Chaud-Froid; Some of the older raid bosses are already ridiculous to tackle alone (see: Toadstool, Bee Queen) and solo players' main way to get through them is literally multiplying their damage to be that of several players at once. At the same time, newer bosses have been much kinder in that regard (Celestial Champion being a prime example of a challenging but fair boss, even solo), but existing bosses remain untouched.

So I appreciate the solution we have here. It is unfortunate that Wolfgang and Wigfrid can't take advantage of the new gear as much as the Dark Sword or Glass Cutter, but I still think it's a good balancing decision - Wolfgang's damage still translates into higher damage than any other character when both Planar damage and Planar defense are applied - being able to kill Brightshades in 14 hits as opposed to 18 hits needed from other characters - and while Wigfrid still takes 17 hits to kill, her other combat perks are still effective due to the new mobs' high attack damage. I would like it if the Inspiration gain from them was increased, though.

I do think some of the characters could use new combat methods adapted to the new difficulty level, but I don't think we should expect their current toolset to suffice if we're starting to get content that's meant to be a higher difficulty level than usual.

They could add a bit of content for each character, whether directly (like giving Walter a lunar counterpart Cursed Rounds or giving Wendy a new elixir to grant Abigail some Planar damage) or indirectly (adding in new spiders for Webber to befriend and use in combat for their planar damage & defense), but I don't think it's something that the game severely lacks in this current update.

With the Brightshades being the only threat requiring the player to engage in the mechanics, the sword's been effective enough - though any minions I try to summon would just die to the Brightshade's thorns (and I think that's more of an issue with the Brightshades themselves than with the planar combat mechanics). Walter completely outranges them with his slingshot, though, so he completely trivializes them provided you're willing to shell out 41 gold rounds, 30 marble rounds or ~18 cursed rounds.

[Mike23Ua]

How to fix Planar Damage-

Webber- Allow Equipped Brightshade Helmets on Webbers Spiders to allow them buff.

Wendy- no real need for a “buff” as long as she’s using Brightshade helmet+weapon, then Abigail’s petal Debuff should still be effecting the plants.

Wurt- Allow guard Merms to wear Brightshade armor and use Brightshade weapons.

Wigfrid- No Need for “buff” just make sure she’s using Brightshade Helmet+Weapon.

Wolfgang- Same as Wigfrid & Wendy.

Wanda- LOLOLOLOL GOOD she needed a Nerf on that Damage Yo-Yo anyway.

Winona & Walter- Brightshade Bombs loadable into Catapult & Slingshot.

Everyone Else- equip befriended Pigmen/Bunnymen with Brightshade Helmets.

This should work.. right?

 

 

[Theukon-dos]

29 minutes ago, Electroely said:

 

I think Planar damage & defense exist to both increase the difficulty by making necessary combat equipment more specific to get, and nerfing the absurd damage multipliers we've had access to in a long time without throwing off the current balance of the game.

For some players, it'd be an outrage if we got some limiter on multipliers like Spicy Volt Goat Chaud-Froid; Some of the older raid bosses are already ridiculous to tackle alone (see: Toadstool, Bee Queen) and solo players' main way to get through them is literally multiplying their damage to be that of several players at once. At the same time, newer bosses have been much kinder in that regard (Celestial Champion being a prime example of a challenging but fair boss, even solo), but existing bosses remain untouched.

So I appreciate the solution we have here. It is unfortunate that Wolfgang and Wigfrid can't take advantage of the new gear as much as the Dark Sword or Glass Cutter, but I still think it's a good balancing decision - Wolfgang's damage still translates into higher damage than any other character when both Planar damage and Planar defense are applied - being able to kill Brightshades in 14 hits as opposed to 18 hits needed from other characters - and while Wigfrid still takes 17 hits to kill, her other combat perks are still effective due to the new mobs' high attack damage. I would like it if the Inspiration gain from them was increased, though.

My brother in Christ I wrote 3 entire paragraphs on Wolfgang and why making Planar Damage nerf him is a terrible idea. 

[Electroely]

Just now, Theukon-dos said:

My brother in Christ I wrote 3 entire paragraphs on Wolfgang and why making Planar Damage nerf him is a terrible idea. 

And I wrote a response as to why I don't think it's a terrible idea.

[Vinja]

18 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

How to fix Planar Damage-

Webber- Allow Equipped Brightshade Helmets on Webbers Spiders to allow them buff.

Wendy- no real need for a “buff” as long as she’s using Brightshade helmet+weapon, then Abigail’s petal Debuff should still be effecting the plants.

Wurt- Allow guard Merms to wear Brightshade armor and use Brightshade weapons.

Wigfrid- No Need for “buff” just make sure she’s using Brightshade Helmet+Weapon.

Wolfgang- Same as Wigfrid & Wendy.

Wanda- LOLOLOLOL GOOD she needed a Nerf on that Damage Yo-Yo anyway.

Winona & Walter- Brightshade Bombs loadable into Catapult & Slingshot.

Everyone Else- equip befriended Pigmen/Bunnymen with Brightshade Helmets.

This should work.. right?

 

 

I have a much simpler solution; get rid of it entirely lol

probably pretty unlikely at this point unfortunately though. Also brightshade bombs in catapults sounds busted as hell lmao.

[Theukon-dos]

11 minutes ago, Electroely said:

And I wrote a response as to why I don't think it's a terrible idea.

Oh, huh. Yeah, my bad. 

 

Anyways, your logic still boils down too "Nerf everything around Wolfgang", which further proves my point that Wolfgang is the problem here, and thus should be nerfed directly. 

[Electroely]

3 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Anyways, your logic still boils down too "Nerf everything around Wolfgang", which further proves my point that Wolfgang is the problem here, and thus should be nerfed directly. 

I explained why I don't think they should nerf him directly - Toadstool and Bee Queen in particular are a huge nuisance to do alone already, and to further limit ways to fight them without improving upon them would be annoying. Unless they plan on going back on reworking those bosses to work better for solo play, I much prefer the solution of a separate damage system that tones down these multipliers. It's a little disconnected, if anything, but I think they can make it come together as the updates keep coming in.

[Toroic]

Planar damage very much feels like a bandaid solution to combat multipliers being out of control when you combine anyone with an innate damage boost and choid froid.

I don't agree that this particularly hurts Wolfgang though, nor do I think it was intended to.  It does significantly reduce his major advantages in combat (consistent 2x multiplier that can be applied to any non-planar weapon and the ability to wear marble armor and ignore the slowdown) but tbh Wolfgang hasn't been a top choice as a combat character outside of specific setups for a while because Wanda, Warly, Wendy can all provide similar damage in the fights where it matters and Max and Wigfrid bring far more combat utility (as does Wanda herself).  Other than a duo with a non-warly, I don't see Wolfgang as being an optimal choice (he falls off in larger groups, and there are stronger solo picks)

Wolfgang will still deal more damage with a brightsword than other characters, and he'll still have more base health than most characters as well.  He'll be less effective against planar resist enemies relative to other characters than normal enemies, but that still leaves him above average.

I don't think he needs a nerf as I think he sits very much around Wigfrid in terms of strength right now, he's just better in solo/duo while she scales with larger groups.  Neither is top tier in terms of power, that very much goes to characters like Wanda and Warly.

The thing about wolfgang is his damage applies to all equipment in the game and he has no dietary or equipment restrictions.  It's very possible that Klei will introduce a "heavy" variant of planar armor that has slowdown and suddenly wolf has a synergistic option with a significant advantage against planar enemies again.

Consider the shield of terror which is a decent option for most characters but becomes a fantastic one for Wolfgang as it's easily able to be repaired and hits the 100 damage breakpoint that tends to be universally good for anything that isn't a boss.  It was likely not an intended synergy, but the non-specific nature of Wolf's perks made it really good on him specifically.

[sudoku]

3 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

 By every sense of the word, Planar Damage (and in turn, Planar Defense) is an awful mechanic that actively makes post-CC content worse.

I'm not going to disagree with what you said and you have a lot of valid points and criticisms, but this statement here. This is the perfect example of exactly what i've been trying to articulate on many of these beta threads and I'm glad you said it. Klei should've waited to put out a beta until they had more of their endgame loop finished. 

How can they possible use our feedback in a constructive manner when we are  presented with an unfinished gameplay loop that potentially is leaving out the other 90% of content. They even state in the beta post that these "first creatures are drawn to plants" so they clearly have more ideas and stuff planned to flesh out the current mechanics.

We are being asked to give feedback on post-CC content when it largely does not exist yet and that is the issue i have with this update.  

[Capybara007]

adding more damage types to a game that does not show damage

[Theukon-dos]

12 minutes ago, sudoku said:

I'm not going to disagree with what you said and you have a lot of valid points and criticisms, but this statement here. This is the perfect example of exactly what i've been trying to articulate on many of these beta threads and I'm glad you said it. Klei should've waited to put out a beta until they had more of their endgame loop finished. 

How can they possible use our feedback in a constructive manner when we are  presented with an unfinished gameplay loop that potentially is leaving out the other 90% of content. They even state in the beta post that these "first creatures are drawn to plants" so they clearly have more ideas and stuff planned to flesh out the current mechanics.

We are being asked to give feedback on post-CC content when it largely does not exist yet and that is the issue i have with this update.  

See, I get what you're saying on a fundemental level and agree with you to an extent. 

But the thing is, Almost all my problems with the system are ones that I don't think would be changed by future content. Admittedly I jumped the gun on point 2, mostly. But I don't know how any future additions would change the fact that Planar Damage is an extremely confusing system, punishes players for playing anyone who relies on damage modifiers to fight, or that there's little to no effect on the existing Meta.

 

Ok, maaaaybe we'll get stronger weapons deeper into progression. Which is better, obviously. But just getting past CC alone is already the longest progress chain in the game by a landslide. And In that case I think I would actually make the Brightshade Sword on par with the Hambat damage wise as to better communicate the fact that there'll be more later on.

[sudoku]

12 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

See, I get what you're saying on a fundemental level and agree with you to an extent. 

But the thing is, Almost all my problems with the system are ones that I don't think would be changed by future content. Admittedly I jumped the gun on point 2, mostly. But I don't know how any future additions would change the fact that Planar Damage is an extremely confusing system, punishes players for playing anyone who relies on damage modifiers to fight, or that there's little to no effect on the existing Meta.

 

Ok, maaaaybe we'll get stronger weapons deeper into progression. Which is better, obviously. But just getting past CC alone is already the longest progress chain in the game by a landslide. And In that case I think I would actually make the Brightshade Sword on par with the Hambat damage wise as to better communicate the fact that there'll be more later on.

I also agree with you that the mechanic is rather obtuse. And i must confess i am operating under the thought that they actually have this grand plan for an endgame and its just not 'lets add defense and add difficulty to previous content for funsies'.

This is where it would be nice to hear klei's thoughts on this and future content - and i'm not talking about an extensive roadmap where they are locked down and bound to every thing they say. i understand they are afraid of promising stuff to players that might never happen or change but like c'mon some insight or commentary on their updates should be standard practice and would help a lot of us understand whats going on.  

[Theukon-dos]

39 minutes ago, Electroely said:

I explained why I don't think they should nerf him directly - Toadstool and Bee Queen in particular are a huge nuisance to do alone already, and to further limit ways to fight them without improving upon them would be annoying. Unless they plan on going back on reworking those bosses to work better for solo play, I much prefer the solution of a separate damage system that tones down these multipliers. It's a little disconnected, if anything, but I think they can make it come together as the updates keep coming in.

Ok, so you argue that Planar Damage nerfing Wolfgang is good because it puts a cap on his rampant modifiers, but still keeps the existing modifiers for raid bosses that """need""" it for Solo play, yes?

 

Why not just add an option to the world settings to add player-based scaling to raid bosses? Few players means less health and less summons (if applicable). Indefinitely easier to apply than Planar Damage, and it allows solo players to beat Raid Bosses as anyone instead of just Hypermode Wolfgang. (Obviously this is already possible, but you get the point)

[Electroely]

38 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Ok, so you argue that Planar Damage nerfing Wolfgang is good because it puts a cap on his rampant modifiers, but still keeps the existing modifiers for raid bosses that """need""" it for Solo play, yes?

 

Why not just add an option to the world settings to add player-based scaling to raid bosses? Few players means less health and less summons (if applicable). Indefinitely easier to apply than Planar Damage, and it allows solo players to beat Raid Bosses as anyone instead of just Hypermode Wolfgang. (Obviously this is already possible, but you get the point)

That'd be awesome! But it's a suggestion that's been around for years, and nothing ever came of it. So if we're not getting anything like that, I'd rather keep the current combat mechanics unchanged. But if we do get changes to those annoying raid bosses to make them friendlier to low player counts I wouldn't really care about a Wolfgang nerf. He's a good character all-around already.

[Duck986]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wanda- LOLOLOLOL GOOD she needed a Nerf on that Damage Yo-Yo anyway.

The dumbest argument I've ever heard towards Wanda. She doesn't even have the highest DPS (compare buffed Wolfgang with a dark sword that hits every 0.5 seconds, and an old Wanda with an Alarming Clock that hits every 0.67 seconds), and you saying what you said automatically tells me, the Wanda main, that you never ever played her.

But I'll do your math for ya:

Buffed Wolfgang deals 2x damage; the weapon hit animation lasts 0.5 seconds (slightly faster for DST but we round it up); the Dark Sword deals 68 damage. 68 (dmg) * 2 (multiplier) / 0.5 (sec/hit) = 272 (dmg/sec)

Old Wanda deals 142.8 damage (at 37.5 HP btw) with her Alarming Clock, and the animation lasts roughly 0.67 seconds, the same as Tail-o-Three Cats. 142.8 (dmg) / 0.67 (sec/hit) = 213.13 (dmg/sec). 

Her weapon is a whip because when she's old, she's always at risk of dying, and she has to have a bit more space to retreat.

Do your own conclusions. 

[Zeklo]

5 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Problem 2: It homogonizes character choice

Does it though?

There are plenty of facets in the game where certain characters are less effective, but the fact that you're able to list so many for this mechanic just seems... fine? If the planar system's effects are that wide that's the opposite of homogenizing. 

For me I'm more worried about gear limitations than characters—hopefully they'll add enough options that use the system.

[Atkvin]

I could be coming from a place of misunderstanding, barely having the mechanics explained to me from videos, but the concept itself on paper is just confusing to me. (in hindsight after writing this, this preface couldn't be truer)

Planar defense for players resist planar damage that would normally pierce their normal armor. Planar damage pierces enemy planar defense.

But planar defense for enemies do not resist planar damage.. rather, they can only be pierced by planar damage. And their own planar damage can only be resisted by planar defense?

Of course the concept's gonna be obtuse when this base mechanic applies in complete opposite depending on whether it affects the player or enemies!

 

Full disclosure: I only just learnt while writing this that dreadstone isn't the nightmare version of brightshade armor, that resists and pierces nightmare planar damage. (Wtf? Why is it called planar damage then?)

Well, the bulk of this suggestion is gonna be much more of an outrageous overhaul to the system that probably won't fit in the devs' vision then... But what if dreadstone became the equivalent of brightshade equipment, and there were nightmare-aligned creatures/powered-up insanity shadow creatures that appear after defeating Fuelweaver, that used the planar mechanics?

With this addition, you could change the mechanic to focus on the lunar and nightmare alignments, so planar damage from the opposite alignment is what pierces their planar defense - while weapons and equipment resist their own alignments, and in other situations, both sources of planar damage would pierce normal armor such as cave spider armor.

Taking the deadly brightshade for example: it would now further resist brightshade sword damage, as its planar damage cannot be pierced by damage on the same alignment. You would need to use dreadstone weapons to pierce it, like a Pokemon type being countered - which would make the mechanic much more consistent and intuitive, behaving the same way from both player and enemy perspectives, and using the expected beats of dark beats light, light beats dark to engage with it, not to mention much more clearly demonstrating the struggle between the two alignments in the plot.

 

Generally, my dumb idea made with misunderstanding aside, for the purposes of conveying the mechanic better, planar defense can be more clearly conveyed through circular shields flashing around the target when they take resisted damage.

For the system as-is, and for the system I am proposing where you'd need to find and prepare equipment on the opposite alignment, it would be wise to have character dialogue point out the ineffectiveness of their current weapon to reflect/hint that they need special equipment for that enemy. "Maybe light weapons aren't working on the light plant", or "Plant is too shiny for average weapon!"