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How Bee Queen is supposed to be fought?


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Okay, since the dawn of time BQ was cheesed: panflutes, sporesacks, walls, you name it. However, how she is supposed to be fought originally? How Klei imagined fight? Any research on non-cheese fights show at best only tanking her with teammates, so I'm interested how it intended to be

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2 hours ago, Rylanor said:

at best only tanking her with teammates

Probably. If you have 3 people, you can just kill easily kill all her grumble bees and not be overwhelmed by them at any point. Though kiting BQ herself is still hard to do because of the honey trail. Tanking her with multiple people is really just that easy and convenient.

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4 hours ago, Rylanor said:

Okay, since the dawn of time BQ was cheesed: panflutes, sporesacks, walls, you name it. However, how she is supposed to be fought originally? How Klei imagined fight? Any research on non-cheese fights show at best only tanking her with teammates, so I'm interested how it intended to be

I'm expecting they wanted you run around them and avoid the grumbles maybe. Or use minions like pigs, spiders and bunnymen. 

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The first phase by killing all but 1 grumble bee. The second, I have honestly no idea. The third I just figured out recently and it is actually relatively smart. You need to prepare a lot of speed to outrun the boosted grumbles (cane, road, magiluminessence) and then, you you circle the queen and her minions and wait, till she sends them at you. When she does, you want to use their own speed to lead them as far away from her as possible, estimate the time they will start to return and circle around them, so that you are a good time before them at beequeen and can get in some hits. Once they return, you run around them again and wait for the next chase, lead them away, get in a couple hits before they return, rinse, dry, repeat. It takes forever, but works even without the flute.

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1 hour ago, Falkenpelz said:

The first phase by killing all but 1 grumble bee. The second, I have honestly no idea. The third I just figured out recently and it is actually relatively smart. You need to prepare a lot of speed to outrun the boosted grumbles (cane, road, magiluminessence) and then, you you circle the queen and her minions and wait, till she sends them at you. When she does, you want to use their own speed to lead them as far away from her as possible, estimate the time they will start to return and circle around them, so that you are a good time before them at beequeen and can get in some hits. Once they return, you run around them again and wait for the next chase, lead them away, get in a couple hits before they return, rinse, dry, repeat. It takes forever, but works even without the flute.

Yep this is my go to strat, boring as hell. that estimated time before running back is 4 or 6 i forget. Probably 6. Otherwise one player is wormwood and makes 3 Bramble Husks for themselves and their partner. Wear beekeeper hat and just face tank. The strat between solo and co-op is insane. Makes me want health scaling for raid bosses considering the gross difference in time. One takes 6 minutes the other takes 24.

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This fight and Dragonfly are why I main Webber, at least for the early game. I don't have the skill to solo them "the legit way". Many boss fights were clearly designed with multiple players in mind. It's DST after all.

Personally I think character swapping is a legitimate strategy if you're playing solo. I know there's a handful of youtubers and streamers who can solo bosses like Fuelweaver or Crab King like it's nothing, but 99% of players don't have the skill for that (which is totally fine). Doesn't mean it's not worth trying, and it can be fun for those looking for a real challenge in their games. But man, my first encounter with Crab King was disheartening at best even though I felt like I was well prepared. Not only does it takes way more prep than you'd expect, but there's basically zero room for individual creativity, or error for that matter. Literally, one deviation from a strictly outlined tactic can end the fight. Some characters, like Webber, Wicker or Wolfgang just have it so much easier.

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so many options. The intended way is probably just running the grumblebees around her or using minions. But you can use mazes, boats, lureplants, walls, moles, panflute spam, and probably a bunch of other methods I have no idea about. 

As for which of those methods are and which aren't cheese, that's for you to decide. 

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If you construct a long straight road along the giant hive you can turn around abruptly and run past all Grumble Bees in the last phase just before they calm down and exchange a few hits with the Bee Queen before repeating. While the fight definitely feels designed for many players it is possible to pull it off alone without cheese with a standard speed character with a stack or two of healing items and armor, plus roads and a walking cane.

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Personally I don't consider pan flutes and especially napsacks a cheese, but fight is doable without them and "heavier cheese" methods.

In the 2nd phase Bee Queen moves faster than grumble bees, so one can use this difference in speed to create enough distance for exchanging few hits with boss; 1st, 3rd and 4th phases for solo were already mentioned in this thread, as well as generic followers methods (bunnymen).

Regarding 3rd and 4th phases: for 2 and more people it's possible to keep aggro of all grumble bees on one person (for example, others can be further away from boss and minions), then lead them all away from Bee Queen when she starts screeching so others can tank this whole time (until grumble bees return to Bee Queen); that way much more hits can be dealt during and after screech compared to solo player who leads away grumble bees and outruns them while dealing damage only after screech.

Also in 2nd phase one can use ranged weapons - in combination with using melee strategy (the one based on speed difference) or without melee support, - namely, darts or fire staff (burning damage). And even though going through 2nd phase with only darts or only fire damage can be resource- or time-consuming, 2nd phase is around 5600 hp long, which is not that much (+ gunpowder exists).

Character-specific methods for whole fight include:

 - Wendy and Abigail: latter should be in soothed state for 3rd and 4th phases (I prefer soothed state for 1st and 2nd phases as well), player also needs nightshade nostrum and spectral cure-all elixirs, although sometimes latter is not needed (when RNG favours player); if night is long enough then just revenant restorative (small healing elixir) is enough;

 - Wigfrid: can scare grumble bees while other players deal damage, and even though for Wigfrid alone this strategy is very resource-inefficient compared to alternatives, with other players to help it actually works;

 - Walter: can use slingshot on Woby, although some food and monster products for Woby are required because fight will be long even with marble/cursed rounds;

 - Webber: spider army of enough size is an option. Suboption 1: use large enough army of spitters/spider warriors with some nurses to just swarm-kill boss and minions; suboption 2: use smaller army (around 25-30 spitters/spider warriors with some (5+) nurses) to deal damage while Webber distracts grumble bees and then switch to Webber dealing damage while spiders distract grumble bees (very doable on beefalo); for controlling spiders aggro in suboption 2 webby whistle and boomerang/ice staff are very helpful;

 - Wurt: enough merm guards can deal with it without Wurt's help (I recommend to bring boomerang/ice staff and 1 beekeeper hat just in case);

 - Wickerbottom: tentacle trap. It's not necessary to fill all safe spot space with walls, chessboard-like pattern is enough (one can even leave empty space in the very center to lessen amount of wall units needed). Seeds and such block tentacles possible spawning points, so one should make sure there are no obstacles in desired area. Personally, I go with 25+ readings (around 50 if I can) of On Tentacles book with octagon safe spot (3-5-7-7-7-5-3 diagonal wall units spot with 1-3-1 diagonal wall units empty spot in the middle, so 32 wall units are needed);

- Winona (and any character after initial setup is made): catapults. One just has to make sure Bee Queen's aggro is always on player, not on catapult. 

- technically Woodie's weremoose form (charge) can deal with grumble bees in all phases, but I wouldn't recommend it for solo because it's resource inefficient and dangerous. However, if there are other people in the group, Woodie can focus on grumble bees while others are dealing damage to the Queen herself. If there is Wortox, it's even better.

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3 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

OP was wondering how klei envisioned the fight to be fought, not literally asking for every existing bq strat

I think the fact that Been Queen moves faster than grumble bees in 2nd phase is intended, and mentioned strategy is how devs envisioned fight. Also I think devs are aware that AoE/minions greatly help with this particular boss (and maybe release reworks with this in mind), but I also would like to read devs opinion from them themselves.

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i think klei may've just used the "figure it out by yourself" card with this boss

newer bosses like cc, eye and reworked ag seem to have more love put into them with the sense that you dont need some random item like weather pains or nightmare amulet to make the fight bearable, i hope they keep reworking bosses and ag isnt the exception

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How come these kind of threads don’t ever get any actual developer responses? I would love to know what the intended method to do several things actually is. But the Devs mostly never speak up. Then what we have left is fan theories & “best way” videos-

I don’t want the best way videos I wanna know Klei’s intended way, and if that means running around in circles screaming panic as I’m murdered by swarms of angry bees at least I’ll know the intended way 

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I'm not sure but I think the intended method is to have runners like in forge and damage dealers. Bee queen does not reagro when you hit her, grumblebees do not reagro as long as the target is near bee queen. In theory first 2 phases can be done without taking damage by 2 players.

Last half of the fight she screams and grumbles will chase nearby players. Damage dealer simply steps away so that all grumbs targeted runner, and then he tanks bee queen. 

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13 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

OP was wondering how klei envisioned the fight to be fought, not literally asking for every existing bq strat

(and tbh I'm genuinely curious too)

I'm fairly certain they had no actual strat in mind.  At least at the time I think Klei was largely of the opinion that there is no cheese.  When a player found something that worked it was a gold star for them.  A bit different now where they're nerfing odd things like smolder rates and Klaus sack, talking about metaknight character oppression in speedruns etc...

Whoever at Klei got that stick up their hoohaa can pls quit already?  The game is better when it embraces creative solutions (even if they are copy/paste from yt) over basic kiting.

7 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

How come these kind of threads don’t ever get any actual developer responses?

Its tough b/c if they say anything we'll get two cycles.  One cycle is where the players from different view points continue to engage them until they finally have to just clock out of the discussion  This one hurts them a lot because it sets some bad expectations and forum behaviors such as EVEN MORE "letter to klei" threads that really don't merit any response from Klei at all, but ppl feel they deserve one because they answered to another.  The other is where what they say is considered "word of god" from Klei even if it is them speaking their own opinions.  These can be mis-quoted, distorted, etc and really cause more confusion then its worth.  Its probably harder too because they way they see the game is very different then the way we see the game so it might not be a very fruitful convo.

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