Winona needs Wortox-like tweaks in next character refresh

[Hornete]

5 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

but that doesnt mean she invented those things.

Then what does the "Invents her own gadgets" perk line mean? You'd have a point if it wasn't for that line.

[NekoSoulx]

20 minutes ago, Hornete said:

Then what does the "Invents her own gadgets" perk line mean? You'd have a point if it wasn't for that line.

yeah it is true that klei made that line but it has to be a little mistake from them. Look my friend you have to think for yourself, she doesnt have anything to make me think she is an inventor like wagstaff aside from that line... She doesnt have the personality and that line is post rework stuff, before the rework she was just a handywoman  with extracraft speed. And Im not going to continue this conversation basically cause its pointless, all i wanted was a Winona with her own core gameplay, but if you want wagstaff 2.0 then fine let klei give her more gadgets, but at the end i think even you are going to notice that was not the right path. 

As a Nona main i just hope they dont make my girl dirty, remember that klei nerfed her extra craft speed with some weird drawbacks, so i just dont want anothet nerf to a niche perk, thats all.

[Hornete]

10 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

yeah it is true that klei made that line but it has to be a little mistake from them.

I think I'll choose to listen to the original writers and their visions/intents. But I appreciate the response.

[maxwell_winters]

9 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

yeah it is true that klei made that line but it has to be a little mistake from them.

Surely you know better than the people that made that game.

9 minutes ago, NekoSoulx said:

she doesnt have anything to make me think she is an inventor

I highly doubt that Winona learned how to make generators that harness magical energy of gems in an engineer college. 

[Just-guy]

1 hour ago, NekoSoulx said:

Do you know the meaning of the word invent?, Do you think generators and catapults are a invention of Winona?

Other character's quotes for her buildings prove that she invented them. Wigfrid even calls her a tinkerer.

[NekoSoulx]

6 minutes ago, maxwell_winters said:

Surely you know better than the people that made that game.

I highly doubt that Winona learned how to make generators that harness magical energy of gems in an engineer college. 

I dont know why some people like to respond to me with nonsenses, i never said anything about know more than klei. And your last statement is funny too cause she doesnt even know how the gemerator works according to her quotes. 

8 minutes ago, Just-guy said:

Other character's quotes for her buildings prove that she invented them. Wigfrid even calls her a tinkerer.

A tinkerer? now thats interesting, well whatever klei do to winona i just hope she doesnt get nerfed again. Oh and i was trying to make a point about her gameplay cause i dont like the idea of a wagstaff 2.0. Sure maybe she invented those things in the context of ds series but i was trying to say that they are not creative or funny, they are an exact copy of real generator and catapults, she didnt discover america when she "invented" this things. What i was trying to say from the start is that she doesnt have the profile of a scientific inventor, so i dont really get why some people think she needs more gadgets to improve her gameplay instead of something really unique or interesting. thats all cx

[Cheggf]

7 hours ago, lakhnish said:

But she's both though?

She's boring AND she's a swap character.

Warly may be a swap character for some but he definitely isn't boring like Winona.

Literally everyone who does anything is a swap character. The only way to make her not be a swap character is if you took her powers away so she had no reason to swap to. 

[Evelo]

Every time someone mentions "swap character" or anything involving the Celestial Portal as a reason change a character, I lose some hair.
I am bald now.

[maradyne]

I hope she gets a lot more gadgets, and more ways to interact with/fine tune them as the one who's most familiar with their designs.

 

And wires.

And lunar panels.

[Atkvin]

To me it'd feel weird if Winona could make too much more gadgets. She's a factory builder - wacky gadgets that let the player control and manipulate the world should be saved for Wagstaff. Not to mention Wicker already recently got a whole new suite of world-bending abilities cementing her as the mage of the cast (for shame, Maxwell)

(That being said, I see a place for her getting a material farming machine as an untapped niche, but it would need to be carefully balanced with needing high maintenance so as not to tread on Woodie and Maxwell.)

The most important thing is making playing her base gameplay feel more fun and rewarding. This has been tweaked, but I still find it strange how the thing she's supposed to be good at and enjoy is both her upside and downside... namely crafting taking away hunger and Winona herself becoming slower at crafting once hungry.

Imo she should only craft slower at low sanity/in pitch darkness, and maybe be able to craft durability-based items with extra durability to encourage players to gear up their teammates with more durable equipment. In exchange: she should be a realist that loses sanity when hungry, and become unwilling to use/equip magic tab items because she thinks it's magical baloney and/or because she is distrusting of dark magic after what happened to Charlie.

Her machines also could be upgradable and encourage Winona to stick around to maintain them/the upgrades.

[cybers2001]

I’ve mentioned elsewhere, but I want winona to be able to craft power poles. If you could hook up all her lighting to a single generator, it would be far less tedious to use, and would still carry the same downside of faster drain as more devices share the power.

[GelatinousCube]

On 8/11/2022 at 2:26 AM, Copyafriend said:

like a drill that randomly produces minerals in moderate quantities, including gems. 

Dope idea! Drill sits there drilling away at the earth over time and generates minerals from time to time ranging from simple rock and flint to moonstone, nitre, gems etc. Perhaps requires some sort of fuel or repair after a certain amount of time that only Winona can perform. 

1 hour ago, Atkvin said:

She's a factory builder - wacky gadgets that let the player control and manipulate the world should be saved for Wagstaff.

Problem with this is that it is very unlikely we will ever see Wagstaff as a playable character now that he is an NPC and sort of an antagonist of sorts as well. He tricked us into helping him with the whole moon shennanigans only for the celestial champion to be dumped on our face with no help from him. He's also responsible for bringing those pesky and aggressive monkeys into the constant from whatever dimension or world they originate from. 

[HowlVoid]

Imagine having the word "Win" in your name, but everyone thinks you're a loser smh my head...

Here's an idea, what if there was a perk that grew over time. That's something that hasn't been done on any character before.

Perk: Tinkerer 

Tools, armor and weapons created get a modifier, from good to bad, but the more she crafts the stronger the chance for strong modifiers in the future.

Like at the start of a world she may craft a "shoddy" axe that has 90% durability because she tried to tinker with it. And the best modifier only adds like 1% above 100%.

Fast forwards an in-game year and several crafts later and she has a really good chance at a "sharp" darksword with 110%-120% durability. Something like that. 

Turn the main complaint people have about her and turn it on its head. Now you're rewarded for being with Winona for a long time! (Also any "new" Winona has to start from scratch tinkerer level). 

It synergizes with her bulk crafting perk so that she can raise that tinkerer level. Idk what the proper balance on that would be tbh.

This idea is mostly coding so no need for new artwork and stuff.

[Another Vena]

18 hours ago, NekoSoulx said:

First the concept "fun" and "boring" is really subjective, i can agree with some people that she is simple but never that she is boring.

We might as well fire all game designers and make entertainment randomly generated. I bet no one would have issues with 1 pixel wide platforms and all logical problems being solved with the same approach. 

Weed eater.

[Bronzebot]

In case anyone's interested, I've written an extensive thread in the Suggestions & Feedback subforum about my thoughts of a potential Winona overhaul.

[lakhnish]

17 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Literally everyone who does anything is a swap character. The only way to make her not be a swap character is if you took her powers away so she had no reason to swap to. 

That is not always the case. There are many characters that are not swap character, or at the very least, a lot of their perks stay with the character. (Wanda, Wigfrid, Wendy, WX for example).

Winona is in a unique position where almost everything about her can be dissociated from her.

16 hours ago, Evelo said:

Every time someone mentions "swap character" or anything involving the Celestial Portal as a reason change a character, I lose some hair.
I am bald now.

That just means it was hereditary. /s

The portal is still a good thing and I love using it. It still doesn't mean that for some characters, aka Winona, it's not an issue.

[Evelo]

4 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

The portal is still a good thing and I love using it. It still doesn't mean that for some characters, aka Winona, it's not an issue.

The portal is a great addition to the game. I use it only to swap to a character I actually enjoy if I wanted to try something new but liked the world.
As far as character balance is concerned I think it shouldn't be a factor. If a character is enjoyable stand alone, awesome! The way it is now Winona just isn't that much fun despite being useful so plenty of people feel obligated to swap to her for her catapults then swap back. Taking away that feature seems ridiculous to me so just make Winona fun so people who want to play her have more fun with her than they do now.
Focus on making a character's experience enjoyable while ignoring the usage of the Celestial Portal. If the character is fun, awesome! If the character can share some of the unique crafts with other characters, awesome!
I personally feel that the Celestial Portal gives many players a feeling of playing "optimally" or making use of character unique crafts rather than coming up with a solution with your initially chosen character.

[Dextops]

16 hours ago, Evelo said:

Every time someone mentions "swap character" or anything involving the Celestial Portal as a reason change a character, I lose some hair.

that is called malding. Winona is objectively a swap character, after you place catapults where you need to you switch to your regular character and you NEVER need to switch back if you did it correctly. All the other "swap" characters people mention aren't really a swap character to the same extent as winona cause you need to constantly swap back to those characters.

[Mysterious box]

9 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

That is not always the case. There are many characters that are not swap character, or at the very least, a lot of their perks stay with the character. (Wanda, Wigfrid, Wendy, WX for example).

Winona is in a unique position where almost everything about her can be dissociated from her.

Considering everything doesn't disappear the moment they leave Wigfrid and Weny are in the same position you don't magically lose what you gained with them when you leave and their combat abilities don't have much merit in your downtime.

1 minute ago, Dextops said:

that is called malding. Winona is objectively a swap character, after you place catapults where you need to you switch to your regular character and you NEVER need to switch back if you did it correctly. All the other "swap" characters people mention aren't really a swap character to the same extent as winona cause you need to constantly swap back to those characters.

After you've gotten all boss loot you need you never need to swap back to a combat character.

14 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

The portal is still a good thing and I love using it. It still doesn't mean that for some characters, aka Winona, it's not an issue.

Considering how often the swap character debate comes up I believe it's 1000% a problem.

[Dextops]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

 

After you've gotten all boss loot you need you never need to swap back to a combat character.

except you always need boss loot for certain bosses so your argument falls flat (beequeen celestial champion fuel weaver)

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, Dextops said:

except you always need boss loot for certain bosses so your argument falls flat (beequeen celestial champion fuel weaver)

No you want never need there is no force that compels you to require that loot.

Also you don't even need a combat character to farm bee queen.

[Evelo]

2 minutes ago, Dextops said:

Winona is objectively a swap character.

Only if you want to make use of the Celestial Portal. You aren't forced to use the Celetial Portal. If you just don't use it and stick with Winona, you're fine. If people want to swap, let them. The thing is making Winona stand alone fun without removing anything people have grown accustomed to and find enjoyable.

[Dextops]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

No you want never need there is no force that compels you to require that loot.

That argument makes literally no sense and can be applicable to anything and undermines any other arguments. I don't need to go to ruins i want to so i can get better loot. I don't need to make a science machine i want to so i can progress.

 

1 minute ago, Evelo said:

Only if you want to make use of the Celestial Portal. You aren't forced to use the Celetial Portal. If you just don't use it and stick with Winona, you're fine. If people want to swap, let them. The thing is making Winona stand alone fun without removing anything people have grown accustomed to and find enjoyable.

yeah she's only a swap character if you use the thing that makes her a swap character. (I am not against the celestial portal it's one of my favourite mechanics i want winona changed not that). I want winona to be enjoyable for everyone not simply a tool that people just use to swap to. There isn't a good argument at all to not add onto her and make her enjoyable in anyway.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, Dextops said:

That argument makes literally no sense and can be applicable to anything and undermines any other arguments. I don't need to go to ruins i want to so i can get better loot. I don't need to make a science machine i want to so i can progress.

Your saying because a boss has loot you can farm you need to farm it but you don't auto boss farms exsist a combat character goes out of the equation post early mid game do they offer something sure is it necessary? No Winona falls under that same category for me as do combat characters.

[Dextops]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Your saying because a boss has loot you can farm you need to farm it but you don't auto boss farms exsist a combat character goes out of the equation post early mid game do they offer something sure is it necessary?

??????????