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[Discussion] Mobility Problem Of Ocean & The Need Of Portable Raft (or Surf Board).


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Edit: adding tl,dr: the basic idea is that boat is good mobile vehicles to move and live on. But we need a separate vehicle that is very good for traveling, but cannot support other functionality that boats have. Traveling from point A to B on boat is unpleasant. We don't always need a slow mother ship for in ocean, sometimes, we only need a swift surf board.

 

Comparing Traveling Environments

Spoiler

The basic environment is day time, when players can move freely without any problem.

Then there is dusk, when players can move freely but with default sanity drain. Although it's optional to deal with it.

Then there is darkness, when players must have a light source in order to travel safely. Light source is generally a consumable item (excluding crown).

Then there is ocean, where players must have a boat to move, an oar as consumable, or a full sets of boat structures.

 

Boat Is An Undesirable Vehicle In Ocean Travel

Spoiler

Compared to traveling in the dark or in the cave, traveling in ocean is much slower and requires much more effort, because of several reasons:

1. Boats are not portable like lanterns. You either have to move your old boats to new ports, or make new boats. If you have a fully geared boat, moving boats are still a lot of work and slow.

2. Boats' movement speed is too slow. Character's default movement is 6. In normal game play, everyone should have a walking cane, so  it's 7.5. But 2 regular masts can only bring up the speed to 4.25, which is still quite slow, compared to the lengthy contour of the main continent. Regular driftwood oar only has max speed of 2.6.

3. Boats' are clumsy. Slow acceleration, deceleration, and slow turning speed. This makes the most ordinary travel in ocean risky because you can lose your boat and everything by making small mistakes.

 

Suggestion: Portable Raft

Spoiler

I suggest game provides a way to make travel in ocean as smooth as traveling on the continent. Just like portable light sources for traveling in the darkness, we should have portable raft for traveling in ocean. The raft doesn't need to be cheaper than boats, it can be made of 4 boards too.

Some must-have feature of the Portable Raft that can solve the ocean mobility issue:

1. Portable. It can be picked up and stored in inventory.

2. Much smaller in size, so that i can move between smaller cracks.

3. Agile. Faster acceleration, faster deceleration, better turning rate. Also high max speed. In shipwreck, ocean traveling is so smooth that it can be made into a mini game dealing with moving tide. In DST, boats are so clumsy that it can slowly crash into stationary sea stacks.

 

The Impact Of Portable Raft

Spoiler

1. Pick figs should be made as easily as picking berries next to frog ponds, as frog will attack you the same way striders attack you. Picking up debris on ocean should be as easy as on land. Traveling to a destination in ocean is as easy as traveling somewhere on land. Shaving barnacles will be as easy as shaving beefalos. Ocean content will be more playable and accessible.

2. It can replace boats as a better vehicles, only because it's more agile. But it won't be able to replace other functions of boats. For example

- You cannot build structures on it, otherwise, how can it be put away in the inventory. Traveling in extreme weather conditions needs extra caution because rafts are unprotected.

- You still need boats to store ocean fish.

- You still need boats to grab sunken items deep in ocean, such as knobbly tree nuts, pearl's trash, sunken treasure, and crab king's antler.

- You still need boats for lureplants farm.

- You still need boats for fighting ocean bosses. Rafts don't have anchor, Maltraboss can push raft away too far for you to attack reliably. I'm not entirely sure how rafts can be used against some form of the crab kings, tho. But I can claws can easily destroy rafts. You still need boats to kill shark.

3. Boat & raft hybrid play style. Take mining salt as an example, players can use boats to mine salt formation and kill cookie cutters, and then release smaller rafts to collect salt debris. Basically, boats are treated as a mother ship, and rafts are actual moving units. The same style can be used for fishing, where boats are the safe shelter (summer, winter, darkness, food, storage), and rafts are used to chase ocean fish. It can be used for collecting figs, boats are parked outside waterlogged, while rafts go in between trees and trunks, pick berries and leave.

4. Freedom of travel. When a group of friends traveling on boat, everyone is pretty much stuck on the boat and can do nothing but wait. With rafts, players can choose to travel along the boat and pick up whatever debris they see, and explore curiously the unknown biomes near the routes.

5. Picking up debris in small rivers.

6. Reduce enter level requirement for ocean content. New players and players who find ocean intimidating, will be more willing to try ocean content since the vehicle required can be always with them, and less grinding on simple moving speed.

 

More Details On Portable Raft

Spoiler

Crafting cost: 4 boards (same as boats)

Max hp: 200

Durability cost: losing 1 hp durability per 10 second when it's in water. (200 hp allows traveling up to 4 days in total)

Repair: each board repair 100% HP, each log repair 25% HP.

Oar: same oars

Speed bonus: x2 as fast as regular boat using same types of oars. Once reached max speed, rafts stay at max speed for x2 as longer. Rafts have x4 acceleration, x4 deceleration speed, x4 turning rate.

Size: half diameter, so it's 25% size of a boat.

Capacity: 1 person per raft? Maybe 2? Or 1? 1.


edit: fixed typo math losing 1 hp per 10 sec instead of per sec, thx @skile

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My main question is how would you pick it up if it works anything like the current boats?
Because if you place anything on it, would you need to destroy all of it just to pick it back up?
Or is it only to use oars?
 

59 minutes ago, goatt said:

1. Boats are not portable like lanterns. You either have to move your old boats to new ports, or make new boats. If you have a fully geared boat, moving boats are still a lot of work and slow.

I get the game isnt always about realism... But how does this make any sense? Why would someone be able to "pick up" a fully geared boat?

this more makes me question how you are using the boats in the first place, because to me and how it seems like the devs intend it is for you to make a 'fully geared boat", one that you can maybe live on, but most importantly, you need more than one sail. And even have upgraded sails, like the winged sails, which go crazy fast, much faster than walking speed.

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2 minutes ago, DarkPulse91 said:

My main question is how would you pick it up if it works anything like the current boats?
Because if you place anything on it, would you need to destroy all of it just to pick it back up?
Or is it only to use oars?

 

1 hour ago, goatt said:

2. It can replace boats as a better vehicles, only because it's more agile. But it won't be able to replace other functions of boats. For example

- You cannot build structures on it, otherwise, how can it be put away in the inventory. Traveling in extreme weather conditions needs extra caution because rafts are unprotected.

 

 

Anyways, this topic reminds me of an idea @QuartzBeam had for a "Boat in a bottle" magic craft, where it would be a literal entire boat just stuffed into a bottle and be able to be re-placed anywhere! How it should be designed and tinkered Im not sure but I always thought it sounded like a fun idea if done right.

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51 minutes ago, sudoku said:

Sounds like a surfboard.

Sounds about right. I think boat mechanism is fine, but making it the only traveling option is undesirable.

 

53 minutes ago, DarkPulse91 said:

My main question is how would you pick it up if it works anything like the current boats?
Because if you place anything on it, would you need to destroy all of it just to pick it back up?

Boat is the current boat, which remains unchanged, cannot be picked up.

But raft, a new ocean vehicle can be picked up. Rafts cannot carry any structures.

 

53 minutes ago, DarkPulse91 said:

this more makes me question how you are using the boats in the first place, because to me and how it seems like the devs intend it is for you to make a 'fully geared boat", one that you can maybe live on

This is a very good point. But here comes the question: If boat is good for living on, does it necessarily have to be also good for traveling? Currently it sucks for traveling. And I suggest we have a separate vehicle that is good for traveling, but not good for living on or some other major functions. Imagine, you have a boat that you live on. But you have a raft to move around the boat doing stuff, until boat is ready to move on to the next destination.

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1 hour ago, Hornete said:

Anyways, this topic reminds me of an idea @QuartzBeam had for a "Boat in a bottle" magic craft, where it would be a literal entire boat just stuffed into a bottle and be able to be re-placed anywhere! How it should be designed and tinkered Im not sure but I always thought it sounded like a fun idea if done right.

Can't wait to fill a chest with boats in a bottle filled with chests on the boats to reduce the chest area size to a singular tile

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I do agree that it's really sad to put a boat down only to realize that pearl's island is on the other side of the map and the clumsiness when you need to navigate around something, but I disagree with the rest. I usually travel without sails due the fact that they make your boat go too fast, and even when I use them, it's when I already know that part of the ocean. Said that, the wooden oar is really bad, so I always deploy my boats next to driftwood.

But I do believe that a raft could be implemented to aid the gathering in the ocean part of the problem. Maybe as an item that you can put into your boat and when you "activate it", it would deploy a small raft tethered to you boat, so you can sail around the salt pillars, orchids or ocean trees. And when you "reactivate it" the character you pull the rope until you reach the boat.

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The portable boat idea isn't what I'd go for personally, I'd say why not but I don't think that would solve anything but the occasional river crossing instead of bridging with a boat, otherwise one or few well equipped boat there and there do for pretty much anything and I never had to complain about them in both solo or multi scenarios. But I'd still welcome different boat types for a bunch of much different reasons.

If you really want to solve mobility I'd rather suggest new features on the sea itself, SW had Electric Isosceles for example and while it was already comfortable on its own to travel in this world, they made it extra easy and they were the perfect fit for an ocean Worm Hole, DST could honestly welcome such features in a different method, foggy teleportation setpieces, whirlpools, anything.
Now many other things could be done in favor of mobility, so among many concepts there's one we can already experiment from @Hornete's mod that adds currents to the oceans, they're a nice ambient feature in general and that serves a couple of purposes including travelling if planned ahead of time.

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1 hour ago, Valase said:

I usually travel without sails due the fact that they make your boat go too fast, and even when I use them, it's when I already know that part of the ocean. Said that, the wooden oar is really bad, so I always deploy my boats next to driftwood.

I can relate. I never use mast. Only wooden oar -> driftwood oar.

The question that inspired me of the op was that: Why can't we pick figs like berries? Why can't we go shave barnacles like shaving beefalos? Why can't we walk to lunar island like walking to pig king at the edge of the map? Why make it so difficult for such simple tasks?

The very simple idea behind my suggestion is that raft should resemble walking on water (with oar to propel). The improved acceleration and deceleration makes it quick to speed up once you press mouse buttons, and quick to slow down once you let go. Same goes to the turning rate. Portability is also important. Like you don't craft new lantern every time you enter a new part of the darkness, or you don't leave the lantern at the edge of the darkness when you are done using it.

 

41 minutes ago, ADM said:

The portable boat idea isn't what I'd go for personally

The portability isn't for me either. I suggested it because many players in my pub games haven't tried sailing and are not interested in the experience. I sense there is a great barrier for new players. It's similar to the feeling of those never tried cave feeling scared about entering cave, I think they feel uncomfortable entering wide ocean with a slow boat. It will take "forever" to reach the kelp right there in water using a wooden oar.

But if you own a raft with higher speed, which you can retrieve and carry in the inventory for reuse next time you see something interesting on the water, it would much less intimidating to try it out.

 

On the issue of mobility, what inspired me is actually SW content. I've never played SW myself, but I figure control of sailing in SW is the same as walking, just ASDW as up down left right. And here comes my question, why can't we just have something as smooth using an oar? Why is a clumsy mother ship needed for basic travel needs?

On several occasions, I have a waterlogged generated near my base, which is just 2 screens away. It would takes 1 min if I could walk there, pick the figs and walk back, but it actually takes more than half a day to do such a simple thing on boat, which is why? My main point is that I think the game should make it possible to move on water nearly as efficient as moving on land. Imagine you have to use current boat in SW to kill jellyfish.

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25 minutes ago, LiamAshvinn001 said:

so what youre saying is Walani?

That's about right, but only surfboard, excluding all other perk, to create a smooth experience of traveling that every SW character has.

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11 hours ago, goatt said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The basic environment is day time, when players can move freely without any problem.

Then there is dusk, when players can move freely but with default sanity drain. Although it's optional to deal with it.

Then there is darkness, when players must have a light source in order to travel safely. Light source is generally a consumable item (excluding crown).

Then there is ocean, where players must have a boat to move, an oar as consumable, or a full sets of boat structures.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Compared to traveling in the dark or in the cave, traveling in ocean is much slower and requires much more effort, because of several reasons:

1. Boats are not portable like lanterns. You either have to move your old boats to new ports, or make new boats. If you have a fully geared boat, moving boats are still a lot of work and slow.

2. Boats' movement speed is too slow. Character's default movement is 6. In normal game play, everyone should have a walking cane, so  it's 7.5. But 2 regular masts can only bring up the speed to 4.25, which is still quite slow, compared to the lengthy contour of the main continent. Regular driftwood oar only has max speed of 2.6.

3. Boats' are clumsy. Slow acceleration, deceleration, and slow turning speed. This makes the most ordinary travel in ocean risky because you can lose your boat and everything by making small mistakes.

 

  Hide contents

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

1. Pick figs should be made as easily as picking berries next to frog ponds, as frog will attack you the same way striders attack you. Picking up debris on ocean should be as easy as on land. Traveling to a destination in ocean is as easy as traveling somewhere on land. Shaving barnacles will be as easy as shaving beefalos. Ocean content will be more playable and accessible.

2. It can replace boats as a better vehicles, only because it's more agile. But it won't be able to replace other functions of boats. For example

- You cannot build structures on it, otherwise, how can it be put away in the inventory. Traveling in extreme weather conditions needs extra caution because rafts are unprotected.

- You still need boats to store ocean fish.

- You still need boats to grab sunken items deep in ocean, such as knobbly tree nuts, pearl's trash, sunken treasure, and crab king's antler.

- You still need boats for lureplants farm.

- You still need boats for fighting ocean bosses. Rafts don't have anchor, Maltraboss can push raft away too far for you to attack reliably. I'm not entirely sure how rafts can be used against some form of the crab kings, tho. But I can claws can easily destroy rafts. You still need boats to kill shark.

3. Boat & raft hybrid play style. Take mining salt as an example, players can use boats to mine salt formation and kill cookie cutters, and then release smaller rafts to collect salt debris. Basically, boats are treated as a mother ship, and rafts are actual moving units. The same style can be used for fishing, where boats are the safe shelter (summer, winter, darkness, food, storage), and rafts are used to chase ocean fish. It can be used for collecting figs, boats are parked outside waterlogged, while rafts go in between trees and trunks, pick berries and leave.

4. Freedom of travel. When a group of friends traveling on boat, everyone is pretty much stuck on the boat and can do nothing but wait. With rafts, players can choose to travel along the boat and pick up whatever debris they see, and explore curiously the unknown biomes near the routes.

5. Picking up debris in small rivers.

 

More Details On Portable Raft

  Hide contents

Crafting cost: 4 boards (same as boats)

Max hp: 200

Durability cost: losing 1 hp durability per second when it's in water. (200 hp allows traveling up to 4 days in total)

 

 

math doesn't really work out. 

200 hp with 1 hp/sec lost is 200 seconds of use(3 minutes 20 seconds) 

1 day is 8 minutes. 

4 days is 32 minutes.

 

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15 hours ago, goatt said:

3. Boats' are clumsy. Slow acceleration, deceleration, and slow turning speed. This makes the most ordinary travel in ocean risky because you can lose your boat and everything by making small mistakes.

God I hate sea stacks so much...

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5 hours ago, skile said:

math doesn't really work out. 

There is a typo, it should be 1hp per 10 sec. Thx for pointing out. I fixed the op.

 

2 hours ago, Cassielu said:

That's not true, it would almost kill the current ship

Raft is impossible to kill boats, unless you purposefully avoid game progress or you don’t know how to progress. In that case, all you need is a vehicle to travel from A to B, and nothing else, then raft is for you, or for those who find rafts enough for their need and don’t need boats.

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18 hours ago, Hornete said:

 

 

 

Anyways, this topic reminds me of an idea @QuartzBeam had for a "Boat in a bottle" magic craft, where it would be a literal entire boat just stuffed into a bottle and be able to be re-placed anywhere! How it should be designed and tinkered Im not sure but I always thought it sounded like a fun idea if done right.

Oh my god this sounds like an awesome future boss drop idea

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Honestly? Hard disagree.

 

Call me crazy, but I don't think boats are that clunky.and what "clunkyness" they do have only makes them more charming.

 

I love drifting over the open ocean, finding the rare point of interest and grabbing a few resources that I will always be able to take with me. not for everyone perhaps, but certainly enjoyable in it's own right.  

 

Unless you use sails. Now *those* are waaaay too clunky to actually use. Oars are where it's at.

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On 6/12/2022 at 5:57 AM, goatt said:

Imagine you have to use current boat in SW to kill jellyfish.

What even is this argument? Imagine if you took this mechanic out of a game that is designed with this particular mechanic in mind and placed it in a different game that is designed around a completely different mechanic instead.

For all the thought that's been put into this post, I fail to see how it's any different than all the other "SW boats in DST" posts that we keep getting. Meaning it fails to take into account the fact that DST's ocean is designed to accommodate DST\s sailing mechanics and not SW's, and its implementation would either render the DST boats damn near obsolete or it would require a ton of dev time spent on reworking just about every bit of ocean content to fit these new boats.

The sailing mechanics of the DST boats informs every aspect of the ocean content. It's the reason that sailing the comparatively tiny ocean we have still feels like a proper voyage. And it's the reason that things like Sea Stacks, Cookie Cutters, Rockjaws, Gnarwails and Sea Weeds pose any threat at all. A SW-esque boat would just about invalidate all of that.

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10 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Unless you use sails. Now *those* are waaaay too clunky to actually use. Oars are where it's at

they are great in explored areas where you can check the map to drift between rockturds. And after you get thee trident you can easily make "highway" between point of interest so you travel really fast

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