The lack of a Downside.

[-Nick-]

The WX-78 rework so far has been possibly one of the best character reworks Klei has released. The new circuit system of being able to make different combinations of perks for WX is really cool. Almost everyone agreed on that WX should somehow have a customizable upgrade system of sorts, the way that Klei did it was quite creative and original.

 

As much as I want to praise this rework even more, there are some well known issues. Issues like some circuits being underwhelming or way too good, slow recharge, lack of incentive to change circuits often, low number of combinations, etc.

One complaint that isn't brought up enough is how WX has no real downside to go along with the many upsides. You may say "Oh WX does have a downside, it's water!", but that "downside" doesn't effect WX in any way at all, unless you are getting wet on purpose.

The way water works on WX now is that there is a threshold on how wet you can be. This threshold is at 20 wetness, this means that you need to be over 20 wetness for water to start effecting WX negatively. This negative effect on WX only drains the the charge meter of 1 charge every 10 seconds. WX doesn't take damage untill they have ran out of charges, which makes them take 17 damage every 10 seconds.

It takes a full minute for water to start damaging WX, this doesn't include the time wetness reaches the threshold and the various sources to slow/completely stop wetness gain. 

 

WX can have infinite nightvision/light, infinite 25%, 40%, and 50% speed, and 2 whole seasons countered with just one circuit change (not to mention that ruins rushing is a cakewalk now). All of this with Wilson level stats to boot. This is simply ridiculous for a character to have. No one should be able to simply shutdown an entire part of the game with easily inserting a circuit and walking away.

The problem here is that charge is infinite as long as you keep circuits socketed in. You only lose charge when you remove them or somehow get wet enough and have charge drain that way (or starve, but even that's much harder).

I'm not saying every character needs a downside, but in the case of WX, they definitely do. Downsides counteract the upsides of a character. It's called a balance. Even though DST may be a PvE game, balance is still important. It helps with keeping the player engaged into the world and helps decide thier choices and interactions within the game. Without balance, the game can become boring, or outright frustrating for the player.

 

How can we fix this problem? We can suggest possible downsides/tweaks to the character that can flow and interact with the upsides.

Many of you have suggested many changes and downsides that could help with this problem/many others. Some are quite simple, while others are more complex. Some suggestions include:

-Lowering all base stats.

-Overload mechanic with circuits.

-Nerfing/buffing some circuits.

-Taking damage along with losing a charge to water. Double damage when out of charges.

-A don't get hit mechanic.

-New fuel gauge that slowy goes down, you begin to lose charge with lower the fuel you have.

-A new rusting mechanic on the charge bar, it effects charges and circuits the worse it gets. (My personal favorite, and totally not biased because it's my idea)

Many more downsides can possibly be thought of. The ones I listed here are the ones ive seen pop up the most.

 

This post may not be well written, but I do help it communicates the important message im trying to send. English writing isnt my strong suit. I may have some info wrong, feel free to correct me.

[Cheggf]

How come every single rework people say this and act like it's a problem? Klei doesn't really like downsides, presumably because most players can't really handle them too well. WX has little downsides. Wolfgang has little downsides. Wendy has little downsides. Outside of like 4 characters nobody has notable downsides.

[LanOrhan]

I agree that WX needs a downside. Among the ones you suggested I am only against a "don't get hit" mechanic. (I don't think they will implement it anyway, after what happened with Wolfgang).

Circuits need a minor overhaul and maybe the ones most people find overpowered (Optoelectronic Circuit comes to mind first) should have a downside. Maybe it should work just as the regular moggles and blind you in daylight so that people won't use it in the surface and it will only have a use in the ruins. I think that would be fair.

[reallychina]

With DST, Klei forgot the "uncompromising" part of the survival adventure.

There are hardly any characters with notable downsides. 

 

Does this make the game worse? Yes, but that doesn't seem to be an issue for them.

[Mike23Ua]

30 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

How come every single rework people say this and act like it's a problem? Klei doesn't really like downsides, presumably because most players can't really handle them too well. WX has little downsides. Wolfgang has little downsides. Wendy has little downsides. Outside of like 4 characters nobody has notable downsides.

I don’t know how many times I have to continuously stress this fact: but Wendy actually DOES have a downside, and that’s that with her reduced damage when Abigail isn’t around/won’t help with tasks.

Such as- When fighting Nightmare Creatures.

This means that any and all future Nightmare Creatures will continue to be a problem for a Wendy player.

if spittlefish randomly jumped out the waters and spit water onto the deck of your boat as your on a boating Adventure, WX78 would get wet a whole lot more often.. thus their downside of wetness would continue to impact them.

I can state this for every character that has a downside..

Downsides play just as important of a role as Upsides do, as they give characters unique gameplay mechanics to enjoy/overcome.

In conclusion- ANYONE who is terrible at fighting Nightmare/Shadow creatures shouldn’t pick Wendy to play as, those people should pick Willow whom has a Teddy Bear designed to combat shadows.

[Masked Koopa]

I think wetness is a questionable way to go about adding a downside to begin with given that most players are not going to be getting wet unless forced to anyway. I think a good downside can encourage a player to think a little more outside the box when it comes to certain problems, and can make an upside feel less pointless. Part of the reason I enjoy wurt and wormwood is that the former forces me out of what I consider the easier food sources while the latter forces me to consider alternate means of healing. 

WX strikes me as interesting mostly in that I could see a system wherein charge requires stranger actions to be taken than usual. Perhaps eating transistors could increase charge, or one could hook oneself up to a lightning rod? I'd like his newfound powers to encourage him to do things other survivors don't - whether that be consuming gold and rocks on a regular basis (although that's similar to wigfrid lol), or by building lightingrods in many locations. Or perhaps something else entirely. I don't think a stat reduction would really help out all too much, that just sounds like wes with more of an endgame.

[Scrimbles]

Downsides can make a character feel much more unique, and in some cases rewarding.

Weighing a characters strengths and weaknesses feels great, and it's a shame a lot of people (And Klei, it seems...) don't fully appreciate the values of risk and reward, and 'highs and lows' as a gameplay mechanic.

WX's circuits would feel so much more rewarding if there was a catch, or further cost, you spend a lot of time as a generally weaker character, having to gather extra resources for modules, but when you put the work in you are rewarded with unique buffs that feel good to use.

Those dynamics are softened when WX doesn't have any impactful downside, and by default could even be said to be a better character than Wilson due to the lack of spoilage effecting food stats.

[SapoLover]

I think Klei just saw that this was the character that people was using to make the game "easier", and then think a way to keep the character OP, but more fun to play.

I don't think any downside will be added.

[Mike23Ua]

What about when it drops rain down into caves? Or when the currently non-existent ocean waves smash into your boat? Would WX78’s Wetness downside start feeling impactful then?

[Capybara007]

13 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

What about when it drops rain down into caves? Or when the currently non-existent ocean waves smash into your boat? Would WX78’s Wetness downside start feeling impactful then?

that is just a fake justification for a lame downside

Now what i think would be cool is making wx stats 100 (hunger 150 because low hunger sucks) and increasing the module capacity to 8 or 9

[ArubaroBeefalo]

50 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

What about when it drops rain down into caves? Or when the currently non-existent ocean waves smash into your boat? Would WX78’s Wetness downside start feeling impactful then?

bring rain protection into the caves during spring and winter and while sailing. Simple and not impactful since, except for sailing, every character except wurt does that

[GelatinousCube]

3 hours ago, Cheggf said:

How come every single rework people say this and act like it's a problem? Klei doesn't really like downsides, presumably because most players can't really handle them too well. WX has little downsides. Wolfgang has little downsides. Wendy has little downsides. Outside of like 4 characters nobody has notable downsides.

I agree.

Wigfrid barely has a downside, as soon as you are used to it which doesn't take long at all it's neglible, her low hunger total (120) is honestly more of a downside in the long run than her no veggies diet.

Wanda doesn't really have downsides and even if you want to consider her unique healthbar as a downside she has so many goddamn perks and even does more damage the lower her "health" is that it's again neglible.

Outside of moonstorms and zero hunger after transforming Woodie doesn't have downsides.

Winona doesn't have downsides outside of increased hunger drain from crafting which yet again is neglible.

Wicker has minor downsides outside of not being eligible for Xmas presents (boo!).

Those who have proper downsides have far more unique play styles and function in a very different way to others.

Then there are the monsters who may be attacked on sight by various normally friendly mobs but they are friendly with other mobs that would generally attack other characters on sight. 

With the addition of Wanda, Wortox isn't quite as unique (soul hop) and almost all mobs hate him.

Him, Wormwood, Walter and Warly are the only characters I see having genuine downsides you need to actually play around and be actively careful/conscious of. 

Even with them getting good at kiting and never trying to tank in combat solves downsides for two of them (Worm and Walter). Strong sanity restoration more or less solves most of Wortox's downsides from losing sanity eating souls and a soul farm means easy healing and hunger and learning a ton of crock pot recipes or even only eating meaty stew solves Warlys downsides.

Downsides don't need to be crazy. Given how often it can actually rain in Spring and some Autumns or caves in Winter I think WX's downside is fine as is. 

As for those asking for him to take damage faster/more damage from water isn't losing charges already pretty terrible? Bye bye to your upgrades if you lose charges.

 

[user1464576869]

I'll just go ahead and say it bluntly. I'm tired of downsides. There is not one I have ever found that incentivise me to play in a unique way to discover some new experience, all of them feels like fiddly annoyances, an antithesis of QoL.
Their abilities themselves are downsides enough. You pick one, you miss out on 17 others.
WX right now is close to the simplest and cleanest QoL character. And I personally can't think of an improvement from there.

EDIT: I admire them in concept, but execution is always so focused on annoyances in stats. Webber's downside of not being able to befriend pigs for example is pretty admirable in comparison to the usual babysitting of sanity or hunger for various reasons.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

8 minutes ago, Cosheeta said:

I'll just go ahead and say it bluntly. I'm tired of downsides. There is not one I have ever found that incentivise me to play in a unique way to discover some new experience, all of them feels like fiddly annoyances, an antithesis of QoL.

you should try wanda, wormwood or warly

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Capybara007 said:

that is just a fake justification for a lame downside

Now what i think would be cool is making wx stats 100 (hunger 150 because low hunger sucks) and increasing the module capacity to 8 or 9

Is it a lame & false justification or is it me predicting the Future?

Consider this: Woodie Mains never thought he would get stuck in the middle of a Moonstorm event prior to Eye of the Storm. Wendy Mains didn’t think they would ever be situation where players can activate a turf war between Gashalts & Nightmare creatures.

if Wetness damage is meant to be WX78’s downside: Trust me it will be WX78’s Downside.

The thing about downsides however is that they really only impact beginner players, or people who aren’t use to playing as that character yet.

Take Walter as an example- sure he has the downside of not being able to use sanity restoring garments, And if damaged Sanity continuously ticks down for him- BUT he also has a bunch of gimmicky ways to restore sanity to the point this downside negates itself.

It would be like if WX took Health bleed out damage from being in rain, but WX also had a Metal Wagstaff Umbrella to craft/equip that negates the downside.

Once you know how to overcome the downside- there is no downside.

[Dextops]

5 hours ago, Cheggf said:

How come every single rework people say this and act like it's a problem? Klei doesn't really like downsides, presumably because most players can't really handle them too well. WX has little downsides. Wolfgang has little downsides. Wendy has little downsides. Outside of like 4 characters nobody has notable downsides.

why i liked playing wurt before i got good  at the game was because i had to adapt to other food sources than just meat and winter was harder (before farming update) which is why i am now a devout wurt main. Wx having a good and engaging downside would instantly make him a more fun character

[Cheggf]

28 minutes ago, Dextops said:

why i liked playing wurt before i got good  at the game was because i had to adapt to other food sources than just meat and winter was harder (before farming update) which is why i am now a devout wurt main. Wx having a good and engaging downside would instantly make him a more fun character

I basically only play Wormwood, Warly, and Wes and find most characters boring because they have no downsides. But acting like a rework is suddenly causing this brand new problem with a first of its kind character having no downsides is silly. This is the status quo, everyone is like this. It's not a problem, it's intentional, even if I don't like it.

[loopuleasa]

Poor Klei

The only way they will be able to satisfy the playerbase is by power creeping the characters

They are stuck on this path, since people won't buy skins on characters that are underpowered

[JosePapp]

5 hours ago, Scrimbles said:

Downsides can make a character feel much more unique, and in some cases rewarding.

This. Some of the most don't starve fun I've had have been playing Woodlegs, who depending on where and how you play has a very notable downside along with his upside. Warly is also really fun and rewarding because of that reason  too.

Heck, even starving as woodie after a transform really makes the player (even newer players) feel more engaged with the game and think of fun strategies. Neglecting downsides is undermining character variety too.

[Cloakingsumo198]

Downsides are meant to pair up with their upsides to help "define" and "shape" their character.

They usually don't sound good on paper but in gameplay they change up the "regular" interactions if even just slightly.

Strict diets, "monster" label, reduced damage, smaller stats, are all pretty common downsides because they are easily worked around but they change the fundamentals.

[MondayNight]

12 hours ago, Nickolai said:

...You may say "Oh WX does have a downside, it's water!", but that "downside" doesn't effect WX in any way at all, unless you are getting wet on purpose.

The way water works on WX now is that there is a threshold on how wet you can be. This threshold is at 20 wetness, this means that you need to be over 20 wetness for water to start effecting WX negatively. This negative effect on WX only drains the the charge meter of 1 charge every 10 seconds. WX doesn't take damage untill they have ran out of charges, which makes them take 17 damage every 10 seconds.

It sure does matter when you go for Spring start, joining public servers in mentioned season or on pubs where you don't have easy access to waterproof clothing in general because others "pillaged" resources - aka most pubs with random start. Also arbitrary heavy rain showers happen in Summer, Forest & Cave Shard, beginning of Autumn, idem, and almost all Winter in Caves - you can be surprised, "pants down", still. On paper all may seem "rosy-posy", but in practice, in bulk player-base, is far from the efficiency one sees on these forums, at least in declarative statements. 17 dmg in 10s & over 20 Wetness under heavy rain, spawned out of gate, will beat you in the head quicker than you expected towards ghostly "fine times" - have you forgotten your own adventures on "Mighty Beard" not so-very long ago? Likewise: this WX iteration and its cons isn't geared towards efficient, advanced experienced players, but all player-base. For them - newbies/noobs/casuals, it matters.

[Theukon-dos]

8 hours ago, Cheggf said:

How come every single rework people say this and act like it's a problem? Klei doesn't really like downsides, presumably because most players can't really handle them too well. WX has little downsides. Wolfgang has little downsides. Wendy has little downsides. Outside of like 4 characters nobody has notable downsides.

Because as I've talked about before, and many have brought up in this thread, A good downside on a character can often be the most compelling aspect of them.

A character's upsides may lend themselves to certain playstyles, no doubt. But it's their downsides that can grab the player by the neck and force them to think outside the box.

 

Wigfrid may have the fighting prowess and starting gear too get into fights earlier than most, but it's her carnivorism that forces the player to engage with combat. Otherwise, why would a Wigfrid not just survive of berries and carrots like any other survivor in the early game?

Likewise, Wagstaff could have all the fancy hats in the world. But without a downside, people would just swap to a Tam o' Shanter or Eyebrella once the seasons for them rolled around. The fact that Wagstaff is short-sighted and relies on his goggles is what makes him so interesting to play. You can't just wear a backpack around all the time with Wagstaff. You might need that body slot for rain or tempature protection. And thus, this fundamentally changes how many players approach the game.

 

I do agree that not every character needs massive downsides, there is a place for a mild inconvenience on an otherwise convenient character. But WX-78 in particular could potentially be one of the most compelling characters in the game. They just need a proper downside and a few re-balances to compensate.

[00petar00]

While i agree that some downsides are great as many in this thread have mentioned, to me Wagstaff is a really well designed character and i think he has very creative downside. but i think that they can either make or break a character. 

For example i really dislike playing characters that have 75% damage modifiers.

Wortox downside isn't something i like either, i would rather if his souls didn't restore his hunger but eating was the same as all other characters.

Walter is in a weird spot too, since he is encouraged to tame his own beefalo while he has Woby since if he takes damage while on beefalo he doesn't lose sanity, i like his downside though.

So i prefer trivial downsides that won't turn me away from playing a character that i may like lore-wise or their abilities.

[HowlVoid]

I'm down for dowsides as long as they're creative and actually adds something to that character.

Wormwood not healing from food allows for an interesting synergy with monster meat in the early game.

If Wx-78 could rust, become slower, but maybe gain some defence as result that would be interesting. Something that adds to his gameplay rather than just add tedium. 

[Flarezen]

5 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Wormwood not healing from food allows for an interesting synergy with monster meat in the early game. 

Or just eat red caps since you still lose sanity with monster meat while red caps are carrots for wormwood