Strident Trident is worse than the Malbatross bill

[HowlVoid]

I'll keep this short.

The Mabatross bill isn't even a weapon but it performs better than an actual weapon, the strident trident. 

Both at a low 27.2 dmg on land but the Malbatross bill has an insane durability advantage. An item that's meant to be a weapon shouldn't be outdone by an oar, a weird comparison but it's an outcry to the current state of the strident trident.

Spoiler

KLEI mentioned that this reflected the bill's status as a "boss drop". I think the strident trident deserves the same recognition. 

Justice for Strident Trident.

Edit: because this post originally made it look like it was a serious comparison between these two items.

[minespatch]

Waiting for bill hats. 

[fall211]

I agree, strident trident needs a buff. However, I would still like to have it as a blueprint.

[Hornete]

my fist does 10 damage but is infinite

simply punch everything!

[Auth]

While I agree hands-down that the trident needs a buff, comparing damage potential is kind of dumb as walking cane/fist have a theoretical infinite damage output. It's kind of like ignoring the point of a weapon, if something has an insanely high potential damage but takes forever to use, then an actually high dps weapon would be better in almost every situation.

[HowlVoid]

51 minutes ago, Hornete said:

my fist does 10 damage but is infinite

simply punch everything!

 

48 minutes ago, Auth said:

While I agree hands-down that the trident needs a buff, comparing damage potential is kind of dumb as walking cane/fist have a theoretical infinite damage output.

The only issue I have with those statements is that punches are not effective in combat. They take too long to recover from and have a long windup to deal damage.

Actually think about it, why aren't fists only day x videos a common occurrence? Despite the 10 dmg and "infinite" durability, it has very poor DPS making the 10 dmg actually be far less. The windup and recover also make for inconstant battle patterns making the player for likely to be punished. 

I made this post very short because I was under impression (which was incorrect) that those reading it could use basic comprehension skills to evaluate the difference between two weapons that have the same weapon viability on land and the only thing separating that is damage potential. It isn't "dumb" because I am not comparing them against other weapons, I am only comparing two weapons that have the same damage. 

Using fists/infinite as an example is rather "dumb" because they are not an effective way to approach combat.

Quote

It's kind of like ignoring the point of a weapon, if something has an insanely high potential damage but takes forever to use, then an actually high dps weapon would be better in almost every situation.

Except both weapons have the same damage? The Strident Trident doesn't have higher dps on land? Lol do you even realize what this comparison is about?

I even suggested increasing it's land damage as it is too low.

[Auth]

3 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Except both weapons have the same damage? The Strident Trident doesn't have higher dps on land? Lol do you even realize what this comparison is about?

Yeah, I get that. I said the trident needs a buff, because it very clearly does, but basing buffs off potential damage and not dps isn't a good way to do it, which is what I wanted to highlight. If the weapon stayed the same but just was given a ton of durability I still wouldn't use it. Sorry you misunderstood my post.

[HowlVoid]

11 minutes ago, Auth said:

Yeah, I get that. I said the trident needs a buff, because it very clearly does, but basing buffs off potential damage and not dps isn't a good way to do it, which is what I wanted to highlight. If the weapon stayed the same but just was given a ton of durability I still wouldn't use it. Sorry you misunderstood my post.

I compared the damage potential because the durability of the Malbatross bill is the ONLY difference between these two weapons when using them on land. Damage potential is only meant to point out the difference in durability , nothing more and nothing less. When using both as a weapon one has incredibly more lifespan than the other. 

I actually don't make any claims that damage potential is important or a reason to buff one weapon over the other, nor that damage potential is an important aspect to a weapon. The Malbatross bill isn't even meant to be used as a weapon, it's an oar, but when compared to an actual weapon it is more viable when compared to a weapon that competes with it in the same damage category. 

You and Hornete read way too much between the lines when I compared two inconsequential numbers.  

I think Klei should recognize it as a boss drop because a boss oar has combat advantages over it. If anything it proves its in a real bad state if a none combat oar has combat advantages over it (how ever insignificant), which is all the damage potential is meant to point out. 

Really wasn't meant to be a driving force behind my reasoning for a buff. 

[Nettalie]

I do wish the trident gets a buff, but basing the reason off of the malbatross bill seems a bit weird. Especially considering we have other weapons that deal more damage than the trident on land (starting with something as basic as a spear). Damage over the span of a weapon's lifespan is not the biggest factor for most people, it's usually dps like auth said. Otherwise by this metric dark swords would be entirely pointless because you can just make a hambat that can potentially deal way more damage than several dark swords combined.

I also think comparing specifically to the malbatross beak is a strange comparison since weapon and tool durabilities are usually handled way differently, even though yes I understand you're only comparing them to get a point across, I do feel part of your point is lost when you have a way more compelling comparison to make with the spear for example, which is something intended for combat with the same amount of uses as the strident trident.

[HowlVoid]

6 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

I do wish the trident gets a buff, but basing the reason off of the malbatross bill seems a bit weird. Especially considering we have other weapons that deal more damage than the trident on land (starting with something as basic as a spear). Damage over the span of a weapon's lifespan is not the biggest factor for most people, it's usually dps like auth said. Otherwise by this metric dark swords would be entirely pointless because you can just make a hambat that can potentially deal way more damage than several dark swords combined.

I also think comparing specifically to the malbatross beak is a strange comparison since weapon and tool durabilities are usually handled way differently, even though yes I understand you're only comparing them to get a point across, I do feel part of your point is lost when you have a way more compelling comparison to make with the spear for example, which is something intended for combat with the same amount of uses as the strident trident.

I compared it to the Malbatross bill because they share the same damage, that's it.

Its like haha the strident Trident is so bad that an oar that's not even meant for combat is better. I really didn't think people would would pay that much attention to the comparison itself but the state in which the strident trident is in. Wasn't even my intent make the Malbatross bill look like a viable weapon. 

I won't make the same mistake in the future, I left too much up for interpretation. Maybe a problem was in increasing it's durability to that of the Malbatross bill but I only did that because their both ocean bosses and I though if an oar can get it than a weapon with low dmg should too.

[Baark0]

personally id hope klei would do a whole rework of the item to make it more interesting rather than just number tweaks to durability/dmg/etc

[Ohan]

It never made sense to me in the first place that the trident BP would be dropped by CK… imo it should be a alch engine or shadow manip or whatever craft. Or the recipe/item needs to be adjusted to match CK.

the only link it has with CK is the geyser thing and even then the trident’s geysers function way differently. 

The recipe, the look, the musical aspect have zero connection to CK. If its a pseudo musical instrument why is it for example not crafted with shell bells that CK drops? 

Has there ever been a boss blueprint or drop in general for that matter that is so disconnected from the actual boss that drops it? I cant think of anything else. 

CK’s whole thing is a rock encrusted behemoth with gems in it. But it drops a BP for a guitar trident made with gnarwhale horns???? 

[minespatch]

14 minutes ago, Ohan said:

It never made sense to me in the first place that the trident BP would be dropped by CK

You'd think it'd be a Merm King item.

[Cheggf]

Dude wtf are these comments. Why are people obsessing over you making a point that it's identical to an oar in everything but one category, therefore being a worse weapon than an oar, and acting like because you pointed that out that's the only buff you think it deserves, that's the only thing you think matters for weapon viability, and that's the only thing you have ever and will ever care about.

 

[minespatch]

1 minute ago, Cheggf said:

Dude wtf are these comments. Why are people obsessing over you making a point that it's identical to an oar in everything but one category, therefore being a worse weapon than an oar, and acting like because you pointed that out that's the only buff you think it deserves, that's the only thing you think matters for weapon viability, and that's the only thing you have ever and will ever care about.

 

I did say bill hat...

[Spino43]

I agree that pumping up the strident trident would be a good buff. Like x2, or even x3.

You have to kill a giant crab and "gingerly" harvest three horns from the whales so it justifies the durability.

[hhh2]

easy buff would just be to make it's damage MUCH higher when at sea, like the trident from SW. 83 seems like a reasonable amount + buff it's durability. Would make it a reasonable weapon when those dang sharks attack. It doesn't really fix but giving it another attack on land like creating skinholes that damage enemies is another way it could be buffed.

[QuartzBeam]

You could make the Strident Trident auto-win the game and I still wouldn't like it enough to put up with the colossal trainwreck that is the Crab King fight and the hair-pulling RNG Fest of finding 3 Gnarwail Horns afterwards.

[Theukon-dos]

I would like to point out that unlike the oar, the Trident gets a significant damage increase on the ocean. But despite this, it's still utter garbage.

 

While on a boat, the Strident Trident deals 68 damage and has 150 durability. This sounds good on paper, being that a dark sword has the same damage and 33% less durability.

 

But then you realize that Dark Swords are one of the cheapest weapons in the game at only 1 living log and 6 nightmare fuel, and that Tridents cost 3 whole Gnarwal horns. Which are somehow the single rarest resource in the game. So in the time it takes you to make a single trident, an average player could probably make no less than a dozen dark swords. And just for reference, the Trident from Shipwrecked dealt 34 damage on land, but triple that while at sea for a whopping 102 damage/hit. A significant boost that made using this rare and expensive weapon have an actual advantage.

 

But of course you also have the ability to cast spells. right click lets you summon geysers for 85 damage each at the cost of 3 durability. It's certainly a helpful ability. But it also suffers from the Blowdart issue where the potential safety and damage is outclassed by how expensive they are. Again, you're looking at 20% more damage per attack at the cost of 66% less durability. The extra range does not make that a good deal.

 

So ultimately, It's a usable weapon that's held back a comical amount by price and niche.

 

 

[Nettalie]

5 hours ago, Ohan said:

Has there ever been a boss blueprint or drop in general for that matter that is so disconnected from the actual boss that drops it? I cant think of anything else.

The mush lights, Eyebrella and Lazy deserter are also fairly disconnected from their actual boss, but I don't see anybody complain about that really. The only connection they really have is the looks but that's about it.

[Ohan]

1 hour ago, Nettalie said:

The mush lights, Eyebrella and Lazy deserter are also fairly disconnected from their actual boss, but I don't see anybody complain about that really. The only connection they really have is the looks but that's about it.

Those crafts are leagues better than trident though in terms of cohesiveness imo:

Spoiler

 

The mushlights r mushrooms that give light and in glowcap’s case can hold spores (like mushtrees and toadstool itself) and is made directly with the fungusy skin of the boss in question.

eyebrella is made by turning the giant fleshy eye u get from the giant eye boss into some sort of “leather” sheet.  

Deserter is an orange gem contraption so it deals with teleportation. Antlion’s desert stones from its belly are “unrefined” or whatever orange gems.

These are all very clear, interesting and satisfactory connections to me. 

 

a rock encrusted fortified crab that can hold gems in its rocky shell and extract their magic properties dropping a blueprint for a trident that makes guitar noises and isnt made with anything that it drops but instead with the extremely rare horns of an entirely different mob seems to me completely random and uninteresting. 

the only connection is the geyser spell but *everything* else about the item is really bad imo in terms of making an interesting connection to its source like every other boss drop. 

take weather pain for example, it mimics the tornadoes of moslings so it uses downfeathers. The handle is made from a voltgoat horn, also an animal connected to weather and storms. The gear is what makes the “science” work. 

trident mimics the geyser spell of CK but has no material connection to it at all. Its made with three gnarwhale horns which make waves not geyser. The twigs and kelp just add further insult to injury. There is nothing magical about the recipe despite the geyser attack clearly being magical in nature because its empowered by purple gems. And whats up with the guitar noise???? 

3 wave producing horns, kelp and twigs are made to reproduce the geyser spell of a magical crab. It just feels silly and uninspired and breaks with DS/t tradition imo. 

[BonesJrOfficial]

11 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

I made this post very short because I was under impression (which was incorrect) that those reading it could use basic comprehension skills to evaluate the difference between two weapons that have the same weapon viability on land and the only thing separating that is damage potential. It isn't "dumb" because I am not comparing them against other weapons, I am only comparing two weapons that have the same damage. 

Using fists/infinite as an example is rather "dumb" because they are not an effective way to approach combat.

11 hours ago, Auth said:

While I agree hands-down that the trident needs a buff, comparing damage potential is kind of dumb as walking cane/fist have a theoretical infinite damage output. It's kind of like ignoring the point of a weapon, if something has an insanely high potential damage but takes forever to use, then an actually high dps weapon would be better in almost every situation.

 

I wanted to engage with this post but I'm kind of withdrawn from the back and forth insults. Just wow.

[jan Mele]

27 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

The mush lights, Eyebrella and Lazy deserter are also fairly disconnected from their actual boss, but I don't see anybody complain about that really. The only connection they really have is the looks but that's about it.

You don't get the eyebrella recipe from deerclops. You just use it's eye for the craft. Interestingly enough, antlion can give you the recipe for Lazy Deserter for a beach toy. But yeh, at least it makes geysers and and has a vaguely aquatic theme.

[Nettalie]

2 hours ago, Ohan said:

Those crafts are leagues better than trident though in terms of cohesiveness imo:

  Hide contents

 

The mushlights r mushrooms that give light and in glowcap’s case can hold spores (like mushtrees and toadstool itself) and is made directly with the fungusy skin of the boss in question.

eyebrella is made by turning the giant fleshy eye u get from the giant eye boss into some sort of “leather” sheet.  

Deserter is an orange gem contraption so it deals with teleportation. Antlion’s desert stones from its belly are “unrefined” or whatever orange gems.

These are all very clear, interesting and satisfactory connections to me. 

 

a rock encrusted fortified crab that can hold gems in its rocky shell and extract their magic properties dropping a blueprint for a trident that makes guitar noises and isnt made with anything that it drops but instead with the extremely rare horns of an entirely different mob seems to me completely random and uninteresting. 

the only connection is the geyser spell but *everything* else about the item is really bad imo in terms of making an interesting connection to its source like every other boss drop. 

take weather pain for example, it mimics the tornadoes of moslings so it uses downfeathers. The handle is made from a voltgoat horn, also an animal connected to weather and storms. The gear is what makes the “science” work. 

trident mimics the geyser spell of CK but has no material connection to it at all. Its made with three gnarwhale horns which make waves not geyser. The twigs and kelp just add further insult to injury. There is nothing magical about the recipe despite the geyser attack clearly being magical in nature because its empowered by purple gems. And whats up with the guitar noise???? 

3 wave producing horns, kelp and twigs are made to reproduce the geyser spell of a magical crab. It just feels silly and uninspired and breaks with DS/t tradition imo. 

My point was that the boss drops I listed had just as little cohesion with the bosses themselves as the trident with crab king. A water and sun repellant hat has nothing to do with a giant ice summoning creature afterall besides being made out of its eye. Same goes for the mushlights which, to be fair fit the mushroom theme thanks to spores, but other than that dont have much to do with toadstool and the deserter besides being a desert themed item and utilizing orange gems doesnt have much to do with antlion.

The only thing all of those have in common that the trident doesnt have is that they require a drop from the bosses themselves so I personally dont really see how theyre perfectly fine when crab king's drop feels "uninspired". Although I'll give you that the guitar noise is...... really out of place. Other than that though I don't think its any less cohesive than the examples I gave.

Hell most other boss drops/items do thematically fit wth their boss' charactersitics, I'm not arguing the trident is a perfect match. I'm just saying there have been items in the past that don't particularly fit well (at least in my eyes) and yet nobody speaks up about those.

Also small sidenote about the materials not being magical, you could technically argue that the horns summon waves which is a form of water manipulation, and thus putting them together in the trident like this lets you manipulate the water in such a way that you can create a geyser. It doesn't need to perfectly match up to make enough sense in my opinion.

1 hour ago, jan Mele said:

You don't get the eyebrella recipe from deerclops. You just use it's eye for the craft. Interestingly enough, antlion can give you the recipe for Lazy Deserter for a beach toy. But yeh, at least it makes geysers and and has a vaguely aquatic theme.

I mean yeah, though my point wasn't just about the blueprints but rather the items as a whole.

[jan Mele]

3 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

 A water and sun repellant hat has nothing to do with a giant ice summoning creature afterall besides being made out of its eye.

A cooling item and a summoning weapon have nothing to do with a giant bird thing if you put it this way.