Wolfgang's Character Refresh is Coming Next Week!

[Ohan]

30 minutes ago, JustExo said:

 

Finally! The only thing that was missing in this thread were graphs  is this data peer reviewed ?

How exactly does wigfrid stay constant and wolfgang plummet? She has nothing but combat perks. Every 2 players wigfrid can equip and support in combat is replaced by a single wolfgang who uses half the weapons, armor and healing. They achieve the exact same ends just by different means. 

If anything they are both constant with an initial build up before they get settled (gym, songs). 

[Orty97]

Just now, Ohan said:

Finally! The only thing that was missing in this thread were graphs  is this data peer reviewed ?

How exactly does wigfrid stay constant and wolfgang plummet? She has nothing but combat perks. Every 2 players wigfrid can equip and support in combat is replaced by a single wolfgang who uses half the weapons, armor and healing. They achieve the exact same ends just by different means. 

If anything they are both constant with an initial build up while they get settled (gym, songs). 

I've seen worse looking graphs in my life XD
If you look from a team perspective the more gear and prep you have on a server, Wolfgang's mightiness gets less usefull for the team. 
For the solo experience (which Wolfgang is still inclined too) it indeed has a build-up and then a constant power level.

[JustExo]

4 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Finally! The only thing that was missing in this thread were graphs  is this data peer reviewed ?

How exactly does wigfrid stay constant and wolfgang plummet? She has nothing but combat perks. Every 2 players wigfrid can equip and support in combat is replaced by a single wolfgang who uses half the weapons, armor and healing. They achieve the exact same ends just by different means. 

If anything they are both constant with an initial build up before they get settled (gym, songs). 

The graphs are meant to help visualize the point I'm making more so than be an actual representation of their utility, I assumed that was obvious given my following statements, but I guess that's on me for not being clear about that. 
Wigfrid's utility is in her tools that the buffs that she can provide which, provide a small boost, but for the most part are almost always accessible, and is typically better to have throughout most stages of the game. while these are combat oriented, the helmets being used for other characters can help to stave off things like falling rocks, picking cacti, providing a bit of a resistance to wetness, and are just overall nice to have in many different situations.
 

[Seero]

6 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Why not middle ground? Like 10% speed boost when mighty. Enough to make a difference but more of a side perk.

Or like pig princess suggested somewhere, that since he is a coward he gets more speed but only if insane (and thus running fast out of being terrified)

NO!!!!!!!!

25% OR UNPLAYABLE

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Orty97 said:

I still don't understand why people think Wolfgang having extra speed in normal mode is bad. 
He has 1 main use now -> beat stuff up. What would moving faster  from place to place in normal mode with no extra damage would be so OP?
It solves the power creep that he was and it keeps the buff for people who enjoyed it (and i would say it's even better for just regular survival sim gameplay).

100% I think its thematic, useful, and makes his forms interesting.  I like the idea that wimpy form is bad, fit form fast, and mighty form strong.  This is more like Wanda where you can play her young where she basically has a full health bar and a cheaper, although restricted healing.  If you kite well with Wanda you can do most bosses in the traditional way.  But in Elder you are close to death and get so much damage!  I often heal up to middle form when I need to craft to avoid the penalty, and then float back to elder as I go about fighting.  It gives you choices.

Wolfgang would be a lot more interesting if there was a reason to go to each form.  Right now its just might, and not mighty.  Normal form has no purpose, its just "not wimpy."  Sure you're avoiding any wimpy form penalties, but its good to get something too.

[Orty97]

5 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

100% I think its thematic, useful, and makes his forms interesting.  I like the idea that wimpy form is bad, fit form fast, and mighty form strong.  This is more like Wanda where you can play her young where she basically has a full health bar and a cheaper, although restricted healing.  If you kite well with Wanda you can do most bosses in the traditional way.  But in Elder you are close to death and get so much damage!  I often heal up to middle form when I need to craft to avoid the penalty, and then float back to elder as I go about fighting.  It gives you choices.

Wolfgang would be a lot more interesting if there was a reason to go to each form.  Right now its just might, and not mighty.  Normal form has no purpose, its just "not wimpy."  Sure you're avoiding any wimpy form penalties, but its good to get something too.

I would go even a step beyong and make certain activities like for example sleeping replenish all his health but he goes to 0 might + some good chunk of hunger deplete. Other such activities would be nice so that you can get to feel the fright of a whimpy wolfgang from time to time. Instead of just always keeping him stronger or faster. He needs a real downside in other words.

[Ohan]

33 minutes ago, JustExo said:

Wigfrid's utility is in her tools that the buffs that she can provide which, provide a small boost, but for the most part are almost always accessible, and is typically better to have throughout most stages of the game. 

Bel canto of courage requires a thul medaillion and clear minded cadenza requires a lunar moth, that is a lot of ground to cover for a wig before her boosts come into play so im not sure what you mean by always available. And theyre only realistically useful against big raid bosses that dont die in 10 seconds where again the value of her boosts on 2 players in combat has to be weighed against the brute force of a single Wolfgang consuming 1 player’s worth of resources from the team but hitting for 2. 

33 minutes ago, JustExo said:

while these are combat oriented, the helmets being used for other characters can help to stave off things like falling rocks, picking cacti, providing a bit of a resistance to wetness, and are just overall nice to have in many different situations.

This is true but is this small non combat wig utility really capable of skewing her and wolf’s utility graph that dramatically? In combat 2 of her helmets on 2 players need to be compared to 1 wolf with 1 football helmet which again imo is a flush. 

Now wolf can also make use of cheap marble armor and leave the thul and shadow gear for his allies which  should be taken into consideration when gaging wolfs utility too. 

Wolfs team utility is less obvious than wigs because he isnt putting helmets on ppls heads. But he does only take 1 players combat resources from the team for the smashing power of 2. 

I think u can correctly argue that Wig has more utility in bigger teams (where pigskin could be scarce) and wolf has more in smaller teams (where his smashing power is more appreciated) but in the end i really dont think their graphs would be that different from each other. 

[Sweaper]

From tests he is safer at clearing Ruins now compared to before, although he's slightly slower at rushing it due to having some additional things to get and because he lost his speed perk. Having access to piggyback allows him to carry both helmets and marble suit so good luck trying to die there. And considering that a lot of people picking Wolf in pubs rush ruins (and bosses) that is quite nice to have considering random lag can happen.

As for the suggestion of other players using his gym that would be a nightmare for Wolfgang in pubs, unless there is a mini gym he can craft that only other characters would be able to use so Wolfgang doesn't need to compete for his own gym. Or Wolfgang just push them off his gym but that goes against his personality.

[Orty97]

I think there is enough info for the Klei team to pick and choose what they want to do with the rework and smooth it out.
I am sorry for being a bit rough here and there with my takes, but that's just how i am.
And risking to sound like a broken clockwork : I do have faith in Klei and what they want to do with the game!
Have a nice one everyone! 

[Mike23Ua]

I really love the idea of Klei sticking to their original promise of what a Rework was going to be and for anyone who was not on these forums during that post it’s this:

Spoiler

The last sentence above the Winona picture- Our goals here are to make each character unique, interesting and valuable in their own rights & we expect this to be GAME CHANGING in Many ways.

That was what Klei promised: Wolfgang has been changed but in my opinion only the way he got to Mightiness was changed- HOW he plays was not game changing..

What I mean by this is that I really love characters who make me play the game in vastly different ways from others- Walter for example gains no kind of sanity benefits from wearing sanity restoration clothing like Top Hats, Wormwood can’t heal through traditional Methods and has to do so in a different way.

With Wolfgang he WAS the all around best choice, hitting harder, moving faster and having no kind of penalty whatsoever expect faster hunger drain.

People who want Wolfgang to maintain his Speed need to be willing to accept something he CANT do to make up for it: For example: If Speed & Damage are his “Thing” then Items that deal additional Speed and Damage should NOT be his thing- He is a SHOWOFF and you wouldn’t see an Olympic sprinter riding around on a horse..

So here’s what I purpose: If he needs to be speedy then just like with Walter not gaining sanity from Sanity restoration clothing: Make it so Wolfgang can’t gain any additional speed from other speed sources (this is the part of him that was broken.. it has nothing to do with his might..) He can tame a Beefalo: But because of his abnormally larger size that Beefalo will be weighed down and move slower for Wolfgang then he could just use SPEEEEDDD, Wolfgang also wouldn’t use a Walking Cane because… that would be like telling someone who enjoys jogging to just ride a bicycle- it’s not the same.

This let’s them Keep his Speed- Because he has no other choices the game would normally provide to him.. and quite frankly I think it would be hilarious to see a Wolfgang sitting on a Beefalo while the poor creature struggles to carry his mass.

I ALSO love some of the TEAM WORK suggestions I’ve seen being thrown around like allowing other players to in addition to whatever is currently on the scale: climb up and add additional weight to help Wolfgang get Mighty faster.

That is too cute NOT to be in the game.

[JustExo]

15 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Bel canto of courage requires a thul medaillion and clear minded cadenza requires a lunar moth, that is a lot of ground to cover for a wig before her boosts come into play so im not sure what you mean by always available. And theyre only realistically useful against big raid bosses that dont die in 10 seconds where again the value of her boosts on 2 players in combat has to be weighed against the brute force of a single Wolfgang consuming 1 player’s worth of resources from the team but hitting for 2. 

 

Weaponized warble and heartrending ballad can be obtained relatively early on, so can things like startling soliloquy depending on the route you take to try and get the necessary items. 
I do like the view of wolfgang being a character who, effectively, takes half of the resources to maintain in terms of weapon and armor, but I don't think those two are things that are significant enough since, as the game goes on, you have easier access to a lot more things which lowers the need for that to matter, in my opinion. 

the specifics of the graph itself are variable, I didn't even make these, I just ripped them off a google image result when I looked up graphs, but I think that the conceptualization of character utility spanning over an amount of time is a good idea to measure what the individual characters perks impact and why they could be the case. 

 

[Pikapikap]

I hope the heat of this thread continues until the wolf update. I love it.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 hours ago, reallychina said:

First of all, you definitely need to split bosses statues weight so that hard bosses give bonus mightiness (twin eyes statues should be 2x mightiness, so should fw/celestial/toadstool at the very least). The bar should not get wider and easier to use with better statues, it should stay the same and have a very small spot that doubles the mightiness per push if hit correctly. If you miss that, you get the standard mightiness.  This would reward up to 4x mightiness for killing the harder bosses and paying attention to the minigame.

this! the minigame is bored because is impossible to miss and, even if i love the different values from the things you put in the gym, giant crops and harder bosses should give more than a deerclops or eye of terror statue

[Dextops]

1 hour ago, Seero said:

NO!!!!!!!!

25% OR UNPLAYABLE

dude seero we've lost no one will budge an inch we gotta compromise or its gonna be 0

[GNGR bred boi]

My god 200+ replies and I've only been gone for less than a day things are getting spicy

Tbh I can live without the speed boost in mighty form, it would be nice to make his health 300 when mighty, his health 200 when normal, his health 150 or 100 when wimpy, with all of the downsides of wimpy form plus 50% sanity drain, but with his old speedboost back in his wimpy form just so he would have a little bit of something else to make him a more interesting character. I don't know about the mining and chopping though we already have characters that do that sort of thing but I like the durability idea when using tools while mighty. One thing I'm a bit confused about is why they needed to add an insulation buff when mighty? Kind of doesn't make sense, nor is it useful for any combat related stuff that they clearly were trying to focus this rework on. I just hope they add a special item that can help the team a bit. 

[Yuuko]

15 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

this! the minigame is bored because is impossible to miss and, even if i love the different values from the things you put in the gym, giant crops and harder bosses should give more than a deerclops or eye of terror statue

I think heavier weights should speed up the reps rather than widening the "perfect hit" window.  It makes the game quicker, and more fun.  Also if you're dealing with lag, or bad at rhythm games then you can just keep using lighter weights ^_^

[Seero]

20 minutes ago, Dextops said:

dude seero we've lost no one will budge an inch we gotta compromise or its gonna be 0

thats not how this works.

[HowlVoid]

19 minutes ago, Dextops said:

dude seero we've lost no one will budge an inch we gotta compromise or its gonna be 0

Damn, y'all broke dextop's spirit, for shame. 

[Dextops]

Just now, Seero said:

thats not how this works.

seems like it

 

Just now, HowlVoid said:

Damn, y'all broke dextop's spirit, for shame. 

nah if he doesn't get his speed boost back imma still fight

[GNGR bred boi]

I'm just at the acceptance stage of grief rn 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

15 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I think heavier weights should speed up the reps rather than widening the "perfect hit" window.  It makes the game quicker, and more fun.  Also if you're dealing with lag, or bad at rhythm games then you can just keep using lighter weights ^_^

sure, the red thing moving faster will make the minigame more interesting

[sawchuk]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

I think heavier weights should speed up the reps rather than widening the "perfect hit" window.  It makes the game quicker, and more fun.  Also if you're dealing with lag, or bad at rhythm games then you can just keep using lighter weights ^_^

They already do this.

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, sawchuk said:

They already do this.

No, they don't.  They have the same speed per rep, which is a very slow rep.  What they do is give you a larger perfect hit target, and more mightiness per hit.  What I'm asking for is for the rep speed to be increased, its very slow right now which makes it boring.  If it were faster, and required better timing (rather than giving fat success bars) it might be fun long term.

[sosiskaKi]

I think fot those who complain about speed boost Klei make gym for leg day.

[chaosmonkey]

Klei,

Thank you for your hard work on this rework and for putting out a beta for us to play test. I had an opportunity to spend some time with it on Friday evening, and I’ve had the weekend to reflect on the changes. I’d like to make a suggestion and then get into my reasoning for it.

Please, scratch this take on the Wolfgang rework and go back to the drawing board.

The proposed rework has taken a character beloved by many and gutted his core game loop and perks. Wolfgang excelled in early game for his efficiency. Yes he killed bosses faster, but more importantly he could perform “everyday” tasks efficiently due to damage and move speed. The gym and weights system instead has him standing around doing nothing. As if that wasn’t enough, the speed bonus and penalty is gone as well.

I personally have 2,000+ days on Wolfgang from boss rushing to megabase building. I love playing this character. The proposed rework makes me feel disappointed. It takes away my interest in this character. It has left me wondering why my way of enjoying the game is not OK and must be removed. It has left me feeling dejected about the character and alienated from the game.

I know a vocal set of people on the forums feel Wolfgang is “too strong” or “overpowered”, but there’s absolutely nothing stopping those same people from playing Wolfgang. Not everyone needs to like every character, and we shouldn’t ruin characters that lots of players love just to placate those other players.

In my opinion, reworks are successful when they make the people already playing a character *more* excited to play that character and also attract additional players to the character. At the very least, a rework should not push away the players that already enjoy a character, but this rework is doing just that.

I believe you knew what you were doing with this update and that you intended to nerf Wolfgang. I hope you thought about how it would affect the players that love Wolfgang just how he is. I hope this post helps you understand how it has affected at least one player. Personally, I struggle to understand your motives with these changes. Why can’t Wolfgang just get flavor on top of what he already is?

If, after the dust settles, this update is pushed through with these massive nerfs, I hope that you can help us understand why the sacrifice was needed. But I certainly hope you consider otherwise because it would mean bye bye Wolfgang for me and many others.

Thanks for reading.