Wolfgang's Character Refresh is Coming Next Week!

[Mangrove]

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

Instead of your constant complaining and arguing how about instead come up with the cool ideas in your heads that could improve Wolfgang?

Identifying problems is generally more useful for devs than suggestions on how to fix them. I do however like your idea of enabling classic mode for characters! From what I hear some Woodie mains would be happy about that as well.

[sawchuk]

3 hours ago, Dextops said:

i think better is 1.25 when mighty .75-85 when wimpy and just regular speed for regular form

1.25x speed is way too fast for the new way mightiness works. Old Wolfgang never actually got 1.25x speed because of the linear scaling, which has been removed. Old Wolfgang also had to constantly stop moving to eat in order to maintain his speed. The new Wolfgang can be mighty for over 7 minutes without stopping to maintain it, then pump a gembell for ~15 seconds to get back up to maximum might.

Even if Wolfgang were to get his speed back, which I don't think he needs, I think that anything more than 15% is absolutely ludicrous. The change from scaling to static is massive.

3 hours ago, Dextops said:

problem is there is no point to maintaining mightyness and being wimpy doesn't have a good enough downside

There's no point to not maintaining mightiness anymore either though. The mightiness meter drains at the same rate regardless of form, so you should just always be mighty since it doesn't cost any more than always being normal. The only way it costs more is if you allow the mightiness meter to stay at 0 for extended periods of time.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Orty97 said:

      The dumbells are a good ideea IMO, but i would suggest doing sth that maintans mightiness be less of a chore (in boss fights).

I don't understand how people are complaining about losing mightiness being a major issue in boss fights. It honestly feels like people making this complaint have not tried the new Wolfgang mechanics at all.

You legitimately maintain mightiness for over 7 minutes without lifting weights. Most boss fights don't last that long, and the ones that do it is trivially easy to just pan flute once and pump a gembell for 15 seconds to get another 7 minutes of mightiness.

6 hours ago, Orty97 said:

Let's say hunger at a certain% keeps your might, OR if Wolf is mighty he can move while juggling the dbells (HE WAS IN A CIRCUS WAS HE NOT?). That would solve the tedium of mightiness with just a simple fix. And you can add a downside like if you loose mightiness you have a constant food drain and can only get to normal mode after a day or two. Idk something more dynamic for the gameplay, that's what we all want, don't we???

I would argue that in a long boss fight having to find space to pump weights for a few seconds is the MOST dynamic form of gameplay we have seen. Your argument for dynamic gameplay is that you don't want to have to change how you are fighting a boss to manage mightiness, which is by definition dynamic. Just fighting any boss no matter the length of the fight without any changes is static, not dynamic.

[sudoku]

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Hell at this point: Klei should just release a “Classic Mode”

this already exists its called Don't Starve.

[Dextops]

Just now, sawchuk said:

There's no point to not maintaining mightiness anymore either though. The mightiness meter drains at the same rate regardless of form, so you should just always be mighty since it doesn't cost any more than always being normal. The only way it costs more is if you allow the mightiness meter to stay at 0 for extended periods of time.

stupid counter argument and thats just my point there is no point in not maintaining mightyness so just go wimpy because mightyness does not give anything worth while most of the time

1 minute ago, sawchuk said:

 

I would argue that in a long boss fight having to find space to pump weights for a few seconds is the MOST dynamic form of gameplay we have seen. Your argument for dynamic gameplay is that you don't want to have to change how you are fighting a boss to manage mightiness, which is by definition dynamic. Just fighting any boss no matter the length of the fight without any changes is static, not dynamic.

false mightyness lasts longer than any boss fight should so this isn't a true statement wolfgangs combat is as boring as any other characters if not even more boring

[Orty97]

5 minutes ago, sawchuk said:

I don't understand how people are complaining about losing mightiness being a major issue in boss fights. It honestly feels like people making this complaint have not tried the new Wolfgang mechanics at all.

You legitimately maintain mightiness for over 7 minutes without lifting weights. Most boss fights don't last that long, and the ones that do it is trivially easy to just pan flute once and pump a gembell for 15 seconds to get another 7 minutes of mightiness.

I would argue that in a long boss fight having to find space to pump weights for a few seconds is the MOST dynamic form of gameplay we have seen. Your argument for dynamic gameplay is that you don't want to have to change how you are fighting a boss to manage mightiness, which is by definition dynamic. Just fighting any boss no matter the length of the fight without any changes is static, not dynamic.

Ah, yes. The most dynamic gameplay there is. Watching an animation while the boss waits for you to get back in shape. 10/10 Gameplay, but nerf Wess pls.

[totestoto]

Is his hunger drain constant now? I think this makes him a much better team player if so. He no longer needs to hold a stack of carrots or berries for himself just to maintain 2x damage. This point is probably over looked by people who complain that he doesn't have any team perks. It's akin to webber - the reworked version is more team friendly. 

 

"Oh, but food is never a problem late game"..... and how is any of the reworked stuff difficult to put together in the late game?

[Mike23Ua]

4 minutes ago, Orty97 said:

Ah, yes. The most dynamic gameplay there is. Watching an animation while the boss waits for you to get back in shape. 10/10 Gameplay, but nerf Wess pls.

HOW is that any different at all from having to watch an animation of cramming a Meatball in your mouth? There is no difference.. some people just can’t see it-

in fact I hope Hornete pops into this thread and shows actual clips of eating animation & Gembell lifting animation being roughly the same.

We can ALSO take into account how long it takes to cook those delicious Meatballs in your crockpot the waiting you will do, AND the Spoil Timer on those Meatballs…

Yet people think the Dumbells are still the worst thing ever why exactly??

[Orty97]

6 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

HOW is that any different at all from having to watch an animation of cramming a Meatball in your mouth? There is no difference.. some people just can’t see it-

in fact I hope Hornete pops into this thread and shows actual clips of eating animation & Gembell lifting animation being roughly the same.

Let me tell you how. 
Dumbells - make them and watch a lifting animation to get the buff.
Food - Fight mobs for meat
           Invest time into farms + actual farming
           Cook the food to get better results (also do stuff while the food cooks)
           Watch eating animation to get the buff 

Yeah, it's so much more fun guys. HOW ARE WE SO BLIND? I guess they could also add a auto-boosfight button for wolfgang since now we can use good gear with no penalty huh? 

[sawchuk]

  

2 minutes ago, Dextops said:

stupid counter argument and thats just my point there is no point in not maintaining mightyness so just go wimpy because mightyness does not give anything worth while most of the time

There are many points in maintaining mightiness though.

• You can use piggyback without penalty. Piggybacks are way better than backpacks for a variety of reasons, but one that is often overlooked is they are fire and waterproof, so you don't lose sanity for wearing them in the rain and you don't have to worry about it burning when you put on armour for fire hounds.
• You don't have to panic and lift weights all the way from 0 mightiness if forced into combat unexpectedly.
• You don't take additional damage when mighty. Assuming this is implemented the same way as other damage resistances, that includes starvation and temperature damage
• You get additional insulation when mighty.

"no point in maintaining mightiness" is NOT the same as "no point in not maintaining mightiness"

4 minutes ago, Orty97 said:

Ah, yes. The most dynamic gameplay there is. Watching an animation while the boss waits for you to get back in shape. 10/10 Gameplay, but nerf Wess pls.

Ah yes. Imagine watching animations while the boss waits for you to get back into shape. What a universally detested game mechanic. I can't think of any popular game where this has been done. /s

Literally any game with a slow heal mechanic. Focusing for HP in Hollow Knight, drinking a potion in Monster Hunter, etc. Any game with a damage buff application animation. Applying resins in Dark Souls, casting armour spells in skyrim, etc. Also, just eating food in DST. The old mighty form change that Wolfgang has always had.

3 minutes ago, Orty97 said:

Let me tell you how. 
Dumbells - make them and watch a lifting animation to get the buff.
Food - Fight mobs for meat
           Invest time into farms + actual farming
           Cook the food to get better results (also do stuff while the food cooks)
           Watch eating animation to get the buff

Let me fix that for you:
Dumbells - Fight mobs for purple gems
                  Invest time into farms for twigs and stone
                  Craft the dumbell and the cut stone
                  Watch lifting animation to get the buff

[Dextops]

1 minute ago, sawchuk said:

• You can use piggyback without penalty. Piggybacks are way better than backpacks for a variety of reasons, but one that is often overlooked is they are fire and waterproof, so you don't lose sanity for wearing them in the rain and you don't have to worry about it burning when you put on armour for fire hounds.
• You don't have to panic and lift weights all the way from 0 mightiness if forced into combat unexpectedly.
• You don't take additional damage when mighty. Assuming this is implemented the same way as other damage resistances, that includes starvation and temperature damage
• You get additional insulation when mighty.

first one was already a feature it isn't new second is most fights aren't surprises unless you are new especially boss combat and additional insulation is outclassed also how are they not the same? there is a point to not maintain in mightyness which is tedium and wasting durability on your dumbbells when you should use them when you need to

[Orty97]

6 minutes ago, sawchuk said:

Let me fix that for you:
Dumbells - Fight mobs for purple gems
                  Invest time into farms for twigs and stone
                  Craft the dumbell and the cut stone
                  Watch lifting animation to get the buff

Ok let me apply your logic and fix this list again then, like childern:

-farm flint and sticks and grass for spear
-fight mobs for meat
-get reeds and gold to make a birdcage
-get silk and sticks for a birdtrap and get a bird
-specialize your farm to get what veggies/filler you want for your food
-burn forest to get crock pot
-cook food
-use the food you make smartly : heal while low mightiness 
-top off your mightiness without breaking combat and using rare items like pan flute

And what i wanted to make you get from this is  that his way of playing made him interract more with the game mechanics AKA having fun with the game.
BUT NOW? Watch animation while boss sleeps and hold F when you are ready.
 

[Eery]

I would like to see the gold and gem dumbells with a lot more durability and instead of tossing them I would like to use them as a close range weapon, so if i'm about to lose mightiness in the middle of a fight I can quick switch to the dumbell and as I hit with them gain mightiness (like a workout) and then switch back to my sword, tossing them around is just fun for killing birds and they lose to much durability to my liking.

[Yuuko]

7 hours ago, Duck986 said:

Wanda's supposed to be a glass cannon, so if you want to hit strong - you have to be weak and frail. Wolf still does 132 damage with a dark sword while having 200 hp, so it's a fair trade, I must say.

also I'm playing solo, so I don't need second chance watches cuz I have altars and LGAs

6 hours ago, Duck986 said:

aren't a teleporter to any place you want, damage cancel, endless whip with higher damage than a dark sword, easy kiting and funny quotes enough for you?

5 hours ago, red_mars35 said:

Interesting rework, still i feel like he kinda lost some of his identity: he's not the highest dps, not the best tank, not the fastest

he's kinda good dps and kinda tanky but fast as everyone else with some minor buffs

While Wanda does more damage in a single hit, her Elder + Whip dps is almost exactly the same dps as Mighty Wolfgang + Darksword.  A lot of people see the higher damage numbers on her whip and forget she attacks slower.

7 hours ago, NinofanTOG said:

Now, you probably used up the same amount of food as pre rework, and got above 90 damage. You are stuck at 200 HP(Mind you Wanda has 150 effective HP as well) and arent fast.

In Elder form you float between 17-22 effective health.  Yes night armor can help mitigate some risk, but considering you have to wait until 73 years to rewind and stay Elder, and that rewind has a cast time and can be disrupted, there is definitely risk in playing Wanda.

During dfly rage mode she is literally 1-2 hits away from death at all times.

Spoiler

 

 

5 hours ago, Dextops said:

because kiting with a marble suit is stupid why not just wear a football helmet a marble suits purpose is to tank using it to kite makes no sense

It gives you the option to easily do either.  In many speed runs I see people go between kiting and tanking to get the dps out.  For instance if you are dodging dfly's attacks with Mighty Wolfgang + Darksword you won't stun her, but when you tank a few hits you do.  Similarly when people are in the AFW after taking out the little shadows they might face tank to get more damage in before the next shield / shadow cycle.

--------------------------------------------

I'm just gonna say it again because I still feel the same way about these changes.

Mighty form needs to be maintained easier, especially in a fight.  Eating food to maintain mighty was great because you could slip in some bites here and there which was both fun to do, and thematic as a strongman.  I do *not* want to stop a fight and pump weights.  Even keeping hunger at 100% its only 6:30 to drop from mighty to normal.  This isn't good enough, the form needs to be able to be maintained through long fights like crab king, toadstool, etc.  I don't actually care much if I need to stop a pump weights to get there, but I don't want to come back to that all the time.

I think having near full belly should stop mighty drain.  This gives us back eating during a fight which was fun, and allows us to extend mighty as long as desired.

Also just appearance wise, and with the larger sprite, I think Wolfgang looks too slow in mighty.  I think Mighty should get a small movement speed bonus, like just 10% so that he at least looks normal.  idk exactly how hitboxes work in this game, but I felt kiting was harder in mighty without the speed boost.

As for big speed boost - I said it before, and I think I still like the idea.  Give his normal form the speed boost he used to get in mighty, like 20-25%.  This gives normal form a reason to exist, and helps make wimpy form bad meaning players want to maintain either normal or might, while not becoming wimpy.  Wimpy Woflgang should be sad Wolfgang.  This makes sense thematically because shedding pounds and becoming trim means he should be able to move faster, being an athletic guy.

I think combining this with removing his mighty drain at full hunger gives interesting game play in that you can maintain 74% mighty for speed boost, then pump for a few moments to get to 76% to receive full mighty perks, this can last as long as you need with full effect and when the fight is over you can trim down to 74% and run home.  imo this sounds like it would be much more fun gameplay, to where even if you had to use a dumbbell it wouldn't take long if you were a good player.  People who aren't as good will need to pump weights more, and that is their punishment for not being good fit Wolfgang players.

imo this kind of perk would leave him top tier, but with more interesting game play similar to Wanda, rather than dumping him down to C tier.  If you have some other perk in mind to replace speed lets hear it, but right now I just see speed being removed, and the rest being more QoL type changes... and that is not good enough imo ~

[GamePlayer42]

why does weightlifting have to be fun?

[sawchuk]

1 minute ago, Dextops said:

first one was already a feature it isn't new

So since a reason to maintain mightiness is not new, it is not a reason to maintain mightiness. That doesn't make sense.

3 minutes ago, Dextops said:

second is most fights aren't surprises unless you are new especially boss combat

Hounds are a "surprise" in that you don't know exactly when they are going to come. In the late game the warning for hound attacks is not long enough to lift from 0 might into mighty form before they spawn. Hounds are easier in mighty form. Hence, a reason to maintain mightiness.

5 minutes ago, Dextops said:

additional insulation is outclassed

That's a playstyle choice. I vastly prefer using insulation over thermal stones. I could make a long post about why it's better, but that's very off topic and I am not interested in derailing the thread.

8 minutes ago, Dextops said:

there is a point to not maintain in mightyness which is tedium and wasting durability on your dumbbells when you should use them when you need to

But if you don't spend a meaningful amount of time at 0 mightiness before lifting again, you aren't saving any time or any durability. With hounds spawning every 3-8 days and Wolfgang's mightiness meter taking over 3 days to drain, unless you deal with hounds without going mighty you won't be spending time at 0 mightiness.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Orty97 said:

Ok let me apply your logic and fix this list again then, like childern:

-farm flint and sticks and grass for spear
-fight mobs for meat
-get reeds and gold to make a birdcage
-get silk and sticks for a birdtrap and get a bird
-specialize your farm to get what veggies/filler you want for your food
-burn forest to get crock pot
-cook food
-use the food you make smartly : heal while low mightiness 
-top off your mightiness without breaking combat and using rare items like pan flute

And what i wanted to make you get from this is  that his way of playing made him interract more with the game mechanics AKA having fun with the game.
BUT NOW? Watch animation while boss sleeps and hold F when you are ready.
 

Wolfgang still does all of those things with the new update. My point was to show how ridiculous it is to break something as trivial as eating down into a lengthened bulleted list because almost every task can be broken down in the same way.

And as a direct counterpoint to your argument of "watch animation while boss sleeps" I will quote someone arguing from your side of view directly contradicting that statement.

 

34 minutes ago, Dextops said:

false mightyness lasts longer than any boss fight should so this isn't a true statement

 

[Orty97]

1 minute ago, Treeomp said:

why does weightlifting have to be fun?

Well i don't know about you, but i don't play games to get bored. That's for sure.

[Dextops]

2 minutes ago, sawchuk said:

So since a reason to maintain mightiness is not new, it is not a reason to maintain mightiness. That doesn't make sense.

saying it didn't add anything new for a reason to maintain mightyness i'd rather like a new reason to be mightyness than a rehash

 

3 minutes ago, sawchuk said:

That's a playstyle choice. I vastly prefer using insulation over thermal stones. I could make a long post about why it's better, but that's very off topic and I am not interested in derailing the thread.

meant by other characters but preferring to use a worse method of something is weird and can't really be used anything factual

 

4 minutes ago, sawchuk said:

But if you don't spend a meaningful amount of time at 0 mightiness before lifting again, you aren't saving any time or any durability. With hounds spawning every 3-8 days and Wolfgang's mightiness meter taking over 3 days to drain, unless you deal with hounds without going mighty you won't be spending time at 0 mightiness.

yes you are later when hounds spawn faster you have bunkers to deal with them so if you play efficiently then you still don't need to be mighty

[GamePlayer42]

did you find it fun eating meatballs

[Orty97]

13 minutes ago, sawchuk said:

Wolfgang still does all of those things with the new update. My point was to show how ridiculous it is to break something as trivial as eating down into a lengthened bulleted list because almost every task can be broken down in the same way.

And as a direct counterpoint to your argument of "watch animation while boss sleeps" I will quote someone arguing from your side of view directly contradicting that statement.

 

 

Well his thing was MIGHTY BELLY. He needed to eat (and still somewhat does) to be strong.
And i would argue that finding spots to sneak in a bite during a fight gave him some style in fighting. 
Now it's just an animation we need to watch everytime we fight? Like, just why?

I would suggest keeping the new things but the  mighty state should be the same speed health everything! BUT, make him go whimpy after some time, so that he has a considerable downside that needs to be thought when planning to fight a boss. Make him more fun. 

Don't nerf the good part. Make us work for it! Make us play more of the game for it. Anything but a dumbed out mechanic to get a nerfed perk...

8 minutes ago, Treeomp said:

did you find it fun eating meatballs

 Actualy yes, you smartass. Cuz it was a short animation and it made me do more stuff to get material for meatballs constantly.
Now you can make them and just watch the game play itself. So dumb...
Edit: and by them i mean the dumbells

[sudoku]

5 minutes ago, Treeomp said:

did you find it fun eating meatballs

No and that was the problem klei had to solve with him. Introduce some fun into his kit, and they failed to.

[sawchuk]

Just now, sudoku said:

No and that was the problem klei had to solve with him. Introduce some fun into his kit, and they failed to.

I find his new kit way more fun than the old one. I have also talked with many people who also feel this way. I think "they failed to" is a gross exageration.

[GamePlayer42]

2 minutes ago, sudoku said:

No and that was the problem klei had to solve with him. Introduce some fun into his kit, and they failed to.

no, i think it is quite fun to hit the gym and do the minigame. The dumbbell is for when you need to hurry up

[Orty97]

1 minute ago, sudoku said:

No and that was the problem klei had to solve with him. Introduce some fun into his kit, and they failed to.

I actually liked the fact that i had to constantly manage food. It gave me stuff to do all the time while playing.
Yeah you can hoard an ungodly ammount of food. But you PLAYED THE GAME to keep them and use them. Now you do quick time events and watch animations. Kinda like a mobile game, lol.

[Mangrove]

3 minutes ago, Treeomp said:

did you find it fun eating meatballs

I enjoy the tension of timing my meatballs correctly while fighting a boss or being chased by shadow splumonkeys

I guess that really means I prefer the gameplay of the linear style mightiness over the new might meter, even if it was meant as a quality of life upgrade

[BezKa]

On 12/11/2021 at 4:49 PM, BezKa said:

-previous beta gameplay post-

Spoiler

I played some more today, mostly because I felt like it. Deerclops came and getting rid of it was super easy, while running around in winter gathering tusks and looking for a tam. I have few more things I thought about- 

Not that much to do while mighty is one thing, and while gathering resources, the suggestions of letting Wolfgang chop, mine and hammer faster in mighty form kept coming back to my mind. I'm not gonna lie, that could be a neat addition, as long as it's not too big to not beat Woodie. 

Potato sacks are... for what, exactly? It'd be cool to have some use for them after replacing the weights at the gym. Speaking of gym, I've been using it pretty often and haven't got bored of it yet. I think I'll take back the getting dull thing, cause honestly the simple rhythm game is just easy and entertaining enough I can't imagine someone getting tired with it to the point of fury. 

I also thought about other "Strong dude" perks Wolfgang could have, because I'd rather he gets some nice flavor stuff than get the speed boost back. First thing to pop into my mind was more inventory slots, either at all time, or just when mighty, but tbh the piggyback penalty removal is already here. Here's an idea- let Wolfgang pick up and throw other players a small distance. For pvp allow to throw them in the water for drowning, in normal game just don't allow if there's no ground where the player could land. Okay, I'm done joking now

What I'm mostly trying to say, the gameplay is in fact enjoyable. It just needs a bit more stuff to do outside of fighting.