Wolfgang's Character Refresh is Coming Next Week!

[blacknight7890]

25 minutes ago, Koomin said:

I tried Wolfgang a few times but couldn't stick with it because it made the game feel too easy and unrewarding.  It was like using a bicycle in a running marathon and then feeling like I accomplished something.

I really like Wolfgang's personality and quotes like "is rock what you not get?", have his great mactusk skin from Halloween, and enjoy fighting bosses, so it's a shame he was not worth playing.

This rework and especially the removal of the speed and damage in combat looks like it will make him actually rewarding to play.  Just want to offer a counterpoint to all the people asking who the rework is helping and saying that it won't bring new players, since I will certainly be one, and I would assume there are many others like me.

This is what I've been saying. He was just too strong, it felt like playing easy mode. Now that you need to earn your might, it's far more rewarding. Everyone complaining that they never nerfed anyone else in the reworks don't realise that everyone who has been reworked so far have been either weak or out if date. They have been trying to bring them up to the same level, likely the level wigfrid is at since they only added to her kit and changed nothing. The reworks are to help Equalize the cast, not buff them. Wolfgang is the first to be above that line, the first that needs to be brought down.

[JustExo]

40 minutes ago, blacknight7890 said:

This is what I've been saying. He was just too strong, it felt like playing easy mode. Now that you need to earn your might, it's far more rewarding. Everyone complaining that they never nerfed anyone else in the reworks don't realise that everyone who has been reworked so far have been either weak or out if date. They have been trying to bring them up to the same level, likely the level wigfrid is at since they only added to her kit and changed nothing. The reworks are to help Equalize the cast, not buff them. Wolfgang is the first to be above that line, the first that needs to be brought down.

We don't know what the reworks are meant to do though is the thing. By and large wolfgang is still going to play the same, his damage up was really the biggest appeal to him, the speed is also something that is strictly a nice thing to have for wolfgang players. Wolfgang's utility in comparison to other characters also comparitively decreases as time goes on and as more people have more gear, and more of a means to clear out enemies. Overall this update just made wolfgang worse at the one thing he excelled at which was early game, without giving him anything in the long term

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 hours ago, thentor0802 said:

No one that didn't like wolfgang before will play or like him. And after this rework I believe that even the ones that like the character will also, me included. :'(

im playing him even when i always loved it but feelt bored for how dumb and grindy was. I didnt enjoy farming tons of food just to have easy mode. Now feels less stupid

in your previous commeny you expressed yoourself like if you didnt tried it. I recommend you to try him before saying things like 

4 hours ago, thentor0802 said:

This is going to definally make him less fun to play

because playing him for a while cna change that thinking

my first minutes trying the rework was complaining all the time about how slow was his early game. I understood better how the metter and dumbells work by playing and notice how to do it better, i regenerated the world and start over loving the character and how confortable is now

[ColdHeaven]

2 hours ago, thentor0802 said:

No one that didn't like wolfgang before will play or like him. And after this rework I believe that even the ones that like the character will also, me included. :'(

i'm sure there will be a mod that allow us to play old wolfgang

[ArubaroBeefalo]

https://psychology-spot.com/resistance-to-change/

[PyPy]

55 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

im playing him even when i always loved it but feelt bored for how dumb and grindy was. I didnt enjoy farming tons of food just to have easy mode. Now feels less stupid

in your previous commeny you expressed yoourself like if you didnt tried it. I recommend you to try him before saying things like 

because playing him for a while cna change that thinking

my first minutes trying the rework was complaining all the time about how slow was his early game. I understood better how the metter and dumbells work by playing and notice how to do it better, i regenerated the world and start over loving the character and how confortable is now

Um no one forced you to grind food and if you really considered him easy mode and didn't enjoy it (which he is not) then why were you grinding food and keeping in mighty form instead of normal or wimpy form? Make it make sense please...

[Mike23Ua]

Oh god.. 2 days left till these forums are about to erupt into widespread chaos like they did when Klei made that Tencent announcement or when they made that Terraria Crossover Announcement…

hey wait Nevermind past controversial announcement post records show that Klei you got this, You guys got balls of steel (the dumbells I mean the dumbells.. well they’re made of rock, gold and purple gems but you know what I mean.)

[Orty97]

2 hours ago, Koomin said:

This rework and especially the removal of the speed and damage in combat looks like it will make him actually rewarding to play.  Just want to offer a counterpoint to all the people asking who the rework is helping and saying that it won't bring new players, since I will certainly be one, and I would assume there are many others like me.

You do realise he lost only speed and gained damage, right? And now you can just use better armor (with a ~5% speed bonus with current perk), and DEAL MORE DAMAGE? How is this more rewarding for you, I wander?

1 hour ago, ColdHeaven said:

i'm sure there will be a mod that allow us to play old wolfgang

So sad, a rework that should breathe new life in a character makes people install mods to get the prior experience. 
That's how you know a rework isn't quite there yet (We still have to see what the full realeave has for us I guess).

40 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

https://psychology-spot.com/resistance-to-change/

I'm sorry but when change is for the worse, yeah it will encounter resistance.
All in all this "rework" is just a make-up covered nerf. His hunget drain is the same, he lost speed, his whimpy form is worse, he loses more sanity, and you have to do some boring tasks from time to time to keep mightiness up.
Wolf did get a 5% speed increase while using the marble armor i guess... Hurray?

 

[sudoku]

2 hours ago, blacknight7890 said:

This is what I've been saying. He was just too strong, it felt like playing easy mode. Now that you need to earn your might, it's far more rewarding. Everyone complaining that they never nerfed anyone else in the reworks don't realise that everyone who has been reworked so far have been either weak or out if date. They have been trying to bring them up to the same level, likely the level wigfrid is at since they only added to her kit and changed nothing. The reworks are to help Equalize the cast, not buff them. Wolfgang is the first to be above that line, the first that needs to be brought down.

I can play Wes and defeat bosses and im sure it would feel very rewarding but that doesnt mean its not incredibly boring. 

My complaints are not that they nerfed him, but they made him more boring. They didnt really give him any additional gameplay to compensate for removing his speed perk. 

And I dont count a minigame as true gameplay, at least not something that will define how you play like a speed perk.

[kolonowski]

Oh come on, Wanda is allowed to stay broken AF but my boy Wolfgang can't get a refresh without getting nerfed :((((((

[Cloakingsumo198]

15 minutes ago, Orty97 said:

You do realise he lost only speed and gained damage, right? And now you can just use better armor (with a ~5% speed bonus with current perk), and DEAL MORE DAMAGE? How is this more rewarding for you, I wander?

So sad, a rework that should breathe new life in a character makes people install mods to get the prior experience. 
That's how you know a rework isn't quite there yet (We still have to see what the full realeave has for us I guess).

I'm sorry but when change is for the worse, yeah it will encounter resistance.
All in all this "rework" is just a make-up covered nerf. His hunget drain is the same, he lost speed, his whimpy form is worse, he loses more sanity, and you have to do some boring tasks from time to time to keep mightiness up.
Wolf did get a 5% speed increase while using the marble armor i guess... Hurray?

 

Exactly. People are trying so hard to be happy about his rework. " Yay wolf is weaker, I will totally make this character the one I choose most often" or "I really like these changes like moving with heavy items" even when wolf could ALREADY do that and people weren't exactly flocking to go play him it just feels disingenuous

[QuartzBeam]

21 minutes ago, Orty97 said:

His hunget drain is the same

His hunger drain is a constant 1.0x now, same as Wilson. 

 

22 minutes ago, Orty97 said:

his whimpy form is worse

Wimpy form was mostly buffed. It no longer suffers a speed penalty, and it has an effective health of ~167, which is slightly more the 150 health it had before. The only new downside it got was the insulation penalty, which doesn't even do anything if you are not using insulated clothing in the first place.

[kolonowski]

On 12/10/2021 at 2:15 AM, LovelyCat said:

Is this a nerf

yep...

+  deals a little bit more damage over time because 2* damage stays constant until mightiness drops significantly
- no longer has he 300 hp on full hunger and so he can deal a lot less damage (lot of hp = stays longer in fights = deals more damage*)
- no bonus speed and so harder to avoid damage

*if a mob has let's say dps of 100 - kills you in 2 sec if u have 200 hp,
 with 300 hp it's 3 sec, so naturally u have more time to attack and overall deal more damage

[Orty97]

36 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

His hunger drain is a constant 1.0x now, same as Wilson. 

I will take a look at how the hunger meter went down before (mightiness stage dependant) and now constant but with less top hunger.
 

 

38 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

Wimpy form was mostly buffed. It no longer suffers a speed penalty, and it has an effective health of ~167, which is slightly more the 150 health it had before. The only new downside it got was the insulation penalty, which doesn't even do anything if you are not using insulated clothing in the first place.

Before whimpy form was a way to heal Wolfgang. You use heal items in whimpy form that get multiplied from health increase from mightiness.
17 health is 2 one-shot spiders. I'm sorry but i can't angree.

All his interesting mechanics are now Wilsom with double dmg. Just boring.

[Ohan]

6 minutes ago, kolonowski said:

no longer has he 300 hp on full hunger and so he can deal a lot less damage (lot of hp = stays longer in fights = deals more damage)

[QuartzBeam]

2 minutes ago, Orty97 said:

I'm sorry but i can't angree.

That's fine. I probably wouldn't like you when you're angree.

[Cloakingsumo198]

16 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

That's fine. I probably wouldn't like you when you're angree.

this caught me off guard lmao

[fimmatek]

5 hours ago, thentor0802 said:

No one that didn't like wolfgang before will play or like him. And after this rework I believe that even the ones that like the character will also, me included. :'(

I'm also someone who didn't like playing him because he was simply boring, but looking forward to trying him out, he looks a lot more interesting now.

[shiguld]

Long time lurker here dropping in for the first time to give my 2 cents since i play the strongman quite a bit. My thoughts on the beta changes:

1. More consistent damage boost instead of linear hunger scaling
- Buff, undisputed

2. Loss of +25% speed boost 
- Nerf, undisputed

3. Ability to wear marble armor/piggyback without speed penalty 
- Buff...ish
- Early game log suits/football helmets are much more efficient to bring to boss fights than marble armor simply because of how much simpler it is to amass these resources. As other posters pointed out, marble suits are best suited for tanking to dps better due to the 95% reduction, so giving this speed boost is a little irrational since it will be unused most of the time. Most games I also have a tamed beefalo because of how easy it is to get one, so the piggyback buff is pretty meaningless to me. 

4. Dumbell = as weapon 
- Buff-ish
- Definitely a fun addition! Love the addition of new AOE attack types. The numbers for damage and durability has to be reworked a bit though because they seem too expensive to throw out at this rate. 

5. 200 Max health 
- Nerf, undisputed 

6. Winpy form
= I extremely dislike the changes to Wimpy form because it reduces gameplay complexity. Previously, the downsides of Wimpy form have reasonable tradeoff with it's benefits (less hunger drain, better healing) especially in a crowded public server where you have new folks eating everything in base. Here again, the beefalo comes to the rescue with consistent damage and removing the speed penalty so you can maintain a normal hunger drain like other characters. In essence, there was actually a good tradeoff consideration when deciding between going through all 3 forms.
With the harsher penalties to wimpy form (less insulation, damage amp - damn the bishops) the Wimpy form is punished so much that it's a singular answer to the question - do you stay Mighty or Wimpy? Honestly, get rid of the insulation nerf, that's completely unnecessary and out-of-place. I don't even mind the damage amp, just the insulation nerf is a major tedium (read unfun) to deal with.
 

7. Might mechanic - inability to control changing form while in battle
- Nerf. Previously you can control the forms you cycle through while in battle, but now that is a lot more resource consuming (dumbell + panflute). This also creates new dangerous situations for new Wolfgang players if they misjudge their might gauge depletion just before a hound wave, leading to a lot of frustration.

9. Might mechanic - gaining might
- Nerf. The idea is interesting, but I would consider this a rather significant nerf. Sure you can maintain might for longer and quite easily with the station, but the major issue is resource tradeoff. It takes quite a bit of resources for the dumbells (especially the gem ones) and to set up the workout stations near boses, which slows down gameplay a lot in the early game. In public populated servers, it might even be a struggle to get enough resources for maintaining might since people hoard so much ****.

10. Speed neutral when carrying heavy objects 
- Buff. I make lots of statue formations, so this is really a nice QoL improvement

11. Faster rower
- Buff... But seriously? Is this even going to be noticed?

12. Sanity drain
- Nerf - especially in solo setting which is wolf's biggest user base

Overall, I believe this rework brings too many nerfs to wolfgang without offering anything meaningful in return. The biggest issue is what other posters pointed out, Wolf brings nothing to the table besides his good combat ability and speed boost allowing him to speedrun stuff that is super difficult for other characters. The speed boost thing was brought up a lot because it opened new opportunities for play (speedruns and no damage challenges). Technically other characters can do these as well, but it was just much more bearable as Wolfgang (ie: accessible to the average tryhard) 

Taking this away and giving nothing in return just diminishes Wolfgang's niche - which is the biggest disappointment with this rework - that Wolfgang has a tiny niche. I had it in mind (perhaps wrongly) that the reworks are designed around the objective of balancing our characters to ensure everyone gets a somewhat even pick rate (minus Wes). There aren't even many Wolfgang players around in group servers and this update may simply drive them to extinction because other characters have more that they can bring to the table in exchange for less resources. 

TLDR: Beta changes = nerf to Wolfgang where it hurts, buffs where it's often meaningless. Overall, less reasons to play the character and nothing done to improve team contribution for Wolfgang. Dumbells are really cool as a weapon, but they need some tuning.

Good suggestions from other posters include unique perks for Wimpy form, team contribution crafts - consumables/workout stations usable by other members. Speed buff... I can live without, but then I'd rather play Wigfrid or Wanda for less tedious upkeep and cool gadgets/damage.

[reallychina]

4 hours ago, blacknight7890 said:

This is what I've been saying. He was just too strong, it felt like playing easy mode. Now that you need to earn your might, it's far more rewarding. Everyone complaining that they never nerfed anyone else in the reworks don't realise that everyone who has been reworked so far have been either weak or out if date. They have been trying to bring them up to the same level, likely the level wigfrid is at since they only added to her kit and changed nothing. The reworks are to help Equalize the cast, not buff them. Wolfgang is the first to be above that line, the first that needs to be brought down.

He is too strong when mighty with bonus speed and that makes boss fights too easy to the point it feels cheap. I don't think any reasonable person can deny that.

However fights are 10% of game time at most, while 60% is spent going around from point A to point B. This is where the speed bonus was used by a lot of players and it saved a lot of time and allowed for specific timings.

The people celebrating the nerf simply don't understand how much the speed was used OUTSIDE of combat.

• Mighty Wolfgang should not get the speed bonus.
• Normal Wolfgang should get the legacy flat speed bonus all the time.
• Wimpy Wolfgang should get 1.5x speed with major penalties like not being able to wear any armor (and not even wield a weapon maybe) and receiving double damage or something, essentially making him one shot and useless but very fast (cause he's wimpy and scared so he runs away).

 

This will incentivize switching between forms and timing how much mighty points you put in and how much hunger you want (indirectly manipulating mighty). And would incentivize more station building, upgrading and usage. 

 

As is now, you only want to stay mighty and there's that. There is no use for his other forms. Old Wolfgang rewarded being out of mighty with less food draining and much higher heal efficiency.

[QuartzBeam]

22 minutes ago, shiguld said:

marble suits are best suited for tanking to dps better due to the 95% reduction

The reason they are best suited for tanking because they slow you down too much to make kiting effective. Unless you are Mighty Wolfgang.

 

23 minutes ago, shiguld said:

Love the addition of new AOE attack types. The numbers for damage and durability has to be reworked a bit though because they seem too expensive to throw out at this rate.

They should just make the 2x damage multiplier apply to tossed Dumbells. This way the Gembell, at least, will deal over 100 damage when tossed, which will be great for thinning out hordes of spiders, bees, frogs, etc.

[Dechou]

Just came to highlight two ideas I read here and found brilliant:

- Speed boost on wimpy wolfgang : Speed on mighty was definitely a very OP perk for a character that already gained x2 dmg in this form, thank you for balancing this monstrosity, however giving a reason to switch form and get a Fighting / Running stance duality sounds awesome.

- Damage Multiplier on tossed Dumbells to get an anti small herd AOE would be a very cool perk.

[BezKa]

7 hours ago, thentor0802 said:

No one that didn't like wolfgang before will play or like him. And after this rework I believe that even the ones that like the character will also, me included. :'(

I didn't like him before at all, but after the beta I find myself thinking about playing DST as him more and more.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, QuartzBeam said:

The reason they are best suited for tanking because they slow you down too much to make kiting effective. Unless you are Mighty Wolfgang.

or for rushing ruins as bloomed wormwood :3

[sawchuk]

1 hour ago, shiguld said:

t takes quite a bit of resources for the dumbells (especially the gem ones)

... Not really. It costs less than half a stone to maintain mighty form for an entire day with the gembell.

 

1 hour ago, shiguld said:

Previously you can control the forms you cycle through while in battle, but now that is a lot more resource consuming (dumbell + panflute)

You can still manage might without a panflute in combat. Lifting a dumbell between enemy attacks is not that different than eating between enemy attacks.