Jump to content

I think we need an overhaul of the map generation.


Recommended Posts

Let me preface this by saying how much I adore DST, and I don't mean to bash it. I have played it for 4500+ hours and just have come across several problems over the years that just drive me nuts these days, specifically tied to how worlds are generated or how the layout is in general. 

Unfortunately I am obsessed with playing on outstanding or very unique maps. Sometimes I have to spend as much as 6 - 10 hours of non stop map generation until I find one that I am happy with. That process is exhausting. But I just have no motivation to put time into a world for long if I find myself annoyed by the layout or the lack of inspiration to draw from a unique enviroment.


There is several things that I find particularly troublesome or always look for/ try to avoid:

  • Long walking distances.


In my opinion, movement speed is one of the most powerful stats in most video games. I can't get myself to play on a map where I have to walk for 5 minutes just to reach a far off point of interest, like Pig King, Moon Stone, Dragonfly or the Oasis. So I always look for maps that provide a fantastic center spot to build on that is as close to every point of interest as possible. A map where things are far apart are never a viable option for me.

  • Lack of variety in biome location
     

Why is the oasis desert almost always a dead end and hardly ever in the center of the map? Why is the killer bee biome almost always connected to a desert? Why do hound and tall forts only spawn in certain biomes? 
The longer you play the game for the more predictable the locations of certain biomes becomes to you, and it's just boring. I don't know why there is so many invisible restrictions and dependancies. Why not loosen some of these restrictions, give us an option to have biomes spawn in unpredictable locations. To me, the best maps I have played on usually have something really unique about them like several biomes fusing together, creating a very unique feel and look.

  • The ocean feels entirely disconnected from the continent

I can see how maybe the initial approach to adding ocean content was the idea to make sure new players don't accidentally encounter it and have to actively seek out that content, as surviving on the ocean is objectively a bit harder than on the main continent and the game is already difficult enough as it is for new players. 
However, to me the ocean and continent feel like they are almost two seperate games that just don't work together at all. The entire shape of the map, where you have a continent in the center and have to sail around in it in a circle to reach points of interest on the ocean like pearls island, lunar island, the mangroves, salt formations is just so annoying to me. You could go faster if you have a seperate boat waiting to be used at virtually any end of a biome, but is it really the developers intention to make us build give or take ~ 6- 12 ~ different boats, fully equipped with 3 sails, crockpot, fridge, glowcap, furance, anchor and steering wheel just so we dont have to sail around the entire circle that is the continent every time we wanna seek out something on the ocean?

  • Rivers are just really bad


When I see the rivers in DST (the intersections between individual biomes) is when I get the feeling that this is work under construction and get a feeling of an empty, unfinished game the most. Why are they even like that?

I have been playing DST without wildfires for years, cause I find the solutions the game offers to you to take care of them like basing in the oasis, the caves, or the new above average trees to be too lackluster and too restrictive in how I want to approach this sandbox game. I don't want to be forced to do things a certain way every 8 hours for 2 hours in a row. To me, it is not difficult or challenging in a satisfying way to keep 20 ice flingos fuelled every summer, it's just tedious and an unecessary chore. 

I really wanted to give wildfires another chance with the addition of the above average trees. But the more I experiment with them, and the more I try to make them happen, the more I realize, these trees just don't work with the way the map is layed out. Not if you want to make a fully fire proof megabase that spans several biomes. There is no way to toss the seeds into rivers that are too narrow to build a boat on. I think it's really stupid to begin with that you basically have to build a seperate boat + pinchin winch just to place the seeds and then possibly destroy them afterwards to make way for the tree to grow underneath. How about a wheelbarrow so I can transport and dump the seed whereever I want? I generated 100s of worlds since the waterlogged update was added to the beta branch, experimenting with different loop/branch settings to find a world that is particularly hole-y or spaghett-ey to give me ample opportunity to grow more above average trees but not a single time it was good enough that I would consider the trees a viable counter measure to wildfires. I don't mind if I have to plant 100s of them to cover everything. But I do mind not having the space to do so. How about adding more ponds and allowing us to grow them in ponds additionally?

Do we even need biomes to be connected to each other anymore at all with a hard land bridges? How about an additional world gen option that tears all biomes slightly apart without the need for an existing land bridge. Ever since the round waffle boats were introduced at the beginning of RoT, you can cross these rivers wherever you want. Why not let us choose where to connect them? If all biomes were just slightly further apart it would be so much easier to accurately place these giant seeds. Maybe you could have an occasional mangrove or salt formation, bull kelp, malbatross shoals or seaweed clusters inbetween the rivers to try to make these very beautiful and interesting ocean biomes more accessible without the previously described problem of how bland it is to always sail for several days to even reach them in an otherwise dull and empty ocean and how disconnected they general feel from the mainland. Or how about some shallow water crossings where you can both walk (but not build) and also sail over to connect biomes.

I love the new Mangrove biome (if that is even its name?) when I am inside it I feel like on a tropical trip on the amazon rivers, then I open my map and it's a (oh, ok, I am far out on the ocean?... weird) to me. 

I feel DST could really become more cohesive and it could greatly improve the accessibility of many places and points of interest if we had a different world shape option that is more rivery, and marshy rather than one center continent that you sail around in a circle. To me, the world shape just feels like a relict of the past that we keep adding content to without asking ourselves if it makes sense anymore in it's current iteration and all the additions that have been made since all those years ago. 


To sum things up, I just want to stress again, how much admiration and respect I have for the work Klei has put into this game and that I in no way intend to diminish their efforts with this post. I am grateful, for all the hours of joy this game has given me and the opportunities it has provided to me. I just adore it so much that I want the best for it and always want it to improve. I usually lack the energy to voice oppinions cause I feel like I never make a difference in life. But well, here I am this time. <3

Anyone got any thoughts on this? 

shorel'aran





 

 


 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally, I feel that what the game needs is more/ more common set pieces, along with more biome variety like what the deserts offer already. Something like a damp swamp (maybe even connecting the waterlogged biome to it and making it's floor greenish rather than purple) or a Rockyland with bat caves or salt ponds. I understand that's wishful thinking however, here's an easier pitch: 

Make it either default with the option to toggle a worldgen where rather than one big continent mass there's two, and the biome combinations are fresh. 

Sometimes you get both deserts on the same mass, other times you don't, sometimes you get pig king and marsh on to the same island, sometimes you don't. It'd make traversal a lot more fun, since you could sail, go down to the caves, use a wormhole, and later you could even telelocate or ride a beef on the caves. Just my two cents

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anything to breathe some new life into map gen would be awesome. I also think the old world shape doesnt do the new ocean justice. The world was that shape when the ocean was just an untraversable void. But now we can sail and there are points of interest and resources out there to collect, the world shape ought to change accordingly i think. At the very least if theres gonna rivers they should be wide enough to sail through with our boats period.

1 hour ago, Rhovious Aran said:

you could go faster if you have a seperate boat waiting to be used at virtually any end of a biome,

^this really sums it up, old world shape isnt very compatible with a new ocean thats traversable.

I wonder if they'll ever be up for a fundamental change like that though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's a mod by Electroely on the workshop that changes the world generation into an archipelago, if there was a world gen setting for worlds where the Main Land is instead broken up into various islands I would definitely play that over the regular world gen in almost all of my worlds(except for when I need the world to be regular for special challenge runs and stuff), specially now with the new boat mechanics. Could even have special types of worlds where some biomes got broken up and got mismatched into a special island with various biomes (example: an island predominantly rocky with some pieces of Moon and Dark Forest)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want setpieces.(I'm so starved for them that one of the things I really liked in the Forgotten Knowledge update was the bridge with rocks and boulders leading to the archives, because it felt a lot like an adventure mode setpiece haha)

The unique ones feel so rare in DST, also remember those wormhole islands in DS? I loved those so much.

With the beta coming I think the problem with having to sail all around the world to get to certain points of interest won't be too boring anymore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

More. Setpieces. Please. Oh and also make the existing rare ones a lot more common, I've only seen the extremely rare setpiece with a shadow manipulator ONCE on a random world, Of course, I don't want setpieces that are just like that one, free bases, I want more unique ones, like different islands (maybe only accessible by a wormhole, I LOVE how they retrofitted the Forgotten Knowledge update into old worlds, and the 'bridge' between the  grotto and the archives) Basically, more interesting, and unique setpieces, please.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Potential set pieces would be: 

A lake with a waterlogged biome 

A "dock" with a boat kit and spoiled fish, it'd stand on wooden flooring 

The pig fortresses from adventure mode, perhaps reworked so that they'd have chests with pig skin inside?

Best part is, set pieces shouldn't be too hard to come up with and implement 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will take the opportunity to ask that worlds don't generate with two Deciduous biomes anymore. Literally the only thing the second deciduous does is make the search for Klaus sack harder by adding more spawn points, so that you sometimes have to walk much more to find it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, sinisterrkid said:

I will take the opportunity to ask that worlds don't generate with two Deciduous biomes anymore. Literally the only thing the second deciduous does is make the search for Klaus sack harder by adding more spawn points, so that you sometimes have to walk much more to find it.

Haha yeah, couldn't agree more. Having a second deciduous in a world is already reason enough for me to dump the world and try again.

 

 

8 hours ago, . . . said:

if they add a overhaul world generation i hope the current one can be kept as an option in worldgen menu settings

Oh yeah, for sure. As I said, make it an optional setting. Always add things only. Don't take away things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Well-met said:

I've said it a million times, Klei needs to make a setpiece contest and pick like 10 entries for land, 10 for caves and 10 for sea and add them. Also give the winners skins or spools or something

Really like the idea, I would definitely participate. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ruins gen has also been terrible for a while now, for example: my 1500 day world has a military biome with 4 statues in it. There's also a weird world gen bug where the ruins generation splits, and aren't connected to each other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Baark0 said:

Ruins gen has also been terrible for a while now, for example: my 1500 day world has a military biome with 4 statues in it. There's also a weird world gen bug where the ruins generation splits, and aren't connected to each other.

I've always felt porting the ruins from DS to DST has kinda broken them. The fully upgraded ancient pseudoscience station is almost always connected diagonally via a tiny sliver of land. Looks rather weird. Generally it always seems so unnecessarily crooked and has weirdly shaped corridors. 

In singleplayer they seemed much more well rounded.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Rhovious Aran said:

I've always felt porting the ruins from DS to DST has kinda broken them. The fully upgraded ancient pseudoscience station is almost always connected diagonally via a tiny sliver of land. Looks rather weird. Generally it always seems so unnecessarily crooked and has weirdly shaped corridors. 

In singleplayer they seemed much more well rounded.

single player ruins actually feel like ruins are not the garbage that is dst ruins. the only time i really get excited exploring ruins is when i see patches of land that resemble single player ruins

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/10/2021 at 9:08 AM, Rhovious Aran said:

but is it really the developers intention to make us build give or take ~ 6- 12 ~ different boats, fully equipped with 3 sails, crockpot, fridge, glowcap, furance, anchor and steering wheel just so we dont have to sail around the entire circle that is the continent every time we wanna seek out something on the ocean?

Most of those things aren't required at all, does every single boat NEED a crock pot and fridge and scaled furnace and glowcap?? I see the appeal of a moving base, I do keep a crock pot and salt box on my early exploration boat, but all of that feels kind of overkill, and I can't imagine Wavey Jones likes it very much.

I do think it's Klei's intention for players to make multiple boats, after all you get a lot of boat kits from sunken chests that already require a boat to look for, but personally I set up boats with just some sails, anchor and steering wheel, and a firepit, at the edge of different biomes that have a point of interest I'll want to return to often. Generally I don't even have to craft much of the structures, as I just get them from treasures.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Well-met said:

I've said it a million times, Klei needs to make a setpiece contest and pick like 10 entries for land, 10 for caves and 10 for sea and add them. Also give the winners skins or spools or something

I’d totally enter this. I love set pieces. They add so much variety to the worlds. A few ocean set pieces would really help full the ocean!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Sunset Skye said:

Most of those things aren't required at all, does every single boat NEED a crock pot and fridge and scaled furnace and glowcap??

Exactly. Players tend to overproduce / over commit, which almost always ends up being huge time sink, turns everything into a chore and sets the pace of the game to a crawl. The world I am playing on has three "harbors" and each has one boat. Only one of the boats has more than a fridge, mast, steering wheel and anchor and together they cover all sea exploration needs more than adequately. Of course trips at sea will turn into a disaster if you try to cram everything possible onboard a tiny boat for every purpose, especially if the boat ends up sinking.

On 8/10/2021 at 3:08 PM, Rhovious Aran said:

Unfortunately I am obsessed with playing on outstanding or very unique maps. Sometimes I have to spend as much as 6 - 10 hours of non stop map generation until I find one that I am happy with. That process is exhausting.

But you don't have to do that. Of course you will lose motivation if you start rolling for a "special" world for hours. I recently passed day 932 on the world I am playing on right now and I simply generated a world with default settings and went with it. If there was a cave marsh I would be happy but all things considered I couldn't care less. Every world has something to offer.

 

On 8/10/2021 at 3:08 PM, Rhovious Aran said:

In my opinion, movement speed is one of the most powerful stats in most video games. I can't get myself to play on a map where I have to walk for 5 minutes just to reach a far off point of interest, like Pig King, Moon Stone, Dragonfly or the Oasis. So I always look for maps that provide a fantastic center spot to build on that is as close to every point of interest as possible. A map where things are far apart are never a viable option for me.

The answer lies in using worm holes and....

Spoiler

Taming a beefalo!! It is worth it, and fun. Try it! :encouragement:

 

Some additional variety to the world generation could be fun, sure, but the current mix between consistency and randomness is far from bad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Captain_Rage said:

The answer lies in using worm holes and....

To be fair though, some wormholes unfortunately generate really badly(Sometimes in the same screen!), Maybe there could be a minimum distance between a pair of wormholes to allow for them to be consistently far-ish at the least.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Hornete said:

To be fair though, some wormholes unfortunately generate really badly(Sometimes in the same screen!), Maybe there could be a minimum distance between a pair of wormholes to allow for them to be consistently far-ish at the least.

and something very late game to relocate them

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

and something very late game to relocate them

wish I had a method to do that. Having a little wormhole hub with spots to places like Pearl’s island and opposite areas of my map (like pig king in my world) would be such a neat merit, especially since the only real wormhole I use now is in a meteor field as it connects to my beebox zone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Sunset Skye said:

Most of those things aren't required at all, does every single boat NEED a crock pot and fridge and scaled furnace and glowcap?? I see the appeal of a moving base, I do keep a crock pot and salt box on my early exploration boat, but all of that feels kind of overkill, and I can't imagine Wavey Jones likes it very much.

I do think it's Klei's intention for players to make multiple boats, after all you get a lot of boat kits from sunken chests that already require a boat to look for, but personally I set up boats with just some sails, anchor and steering wheel, and a firepit, at the edge of different biomes that have a point of interest I'll want to return to often. Generally I don't even have to craft much of the structures, as I just get them from treasures.

I guess I worded it a bit unfortunate. I am not trying to say everyone is supposed to do that. But it is the way I play the game. I am all about efficiency and getting sustainable self powering structures work for me. It's just natural progression to me that at day 1000 I don't wanna use fire pits, torches and lanterns anymore every single night. 

Also I don't really retrieve sunken chests much. Imo the frequency of you getting an X marks the spot from reading a message in a bottle is a bit too low. Sometimes I don't get a single one from 10 bottles. Therefore not enjoyable to me. 

 

16 hours ago, Captain_Rage said:

Exactly. Players tend to overproduce / over commit, which almost always ends up being huge time sink, turns everything into a chore and sets the pace of the game to a crawl. The world I am playing on has three "harbors" and each has one boat. Only one of the boats has more than a fridge, mast, steering wheel and anchor and together they cover all sea exploration needs more than adequately. Of course trips at sea will turn into a disaster if you try to cram everything possible onboard a tiny boat for every purpose, especially if the boat ends up sinking.

 

But you don't have to do that. Of course you will lose motivation if you start rolling for a "special" world for hours. I recently passed day 932 on the world I am playing on right now and I simply generated a world with default settings and went with it. If there was a cave marsh I would be happy but all things considered I couldn't care less. Every world has something to offer.

 

The answer lies in using worm holes and....

To clear up some possible confusion. I don't mind the "grindy" nature of it. Or the fact that I overproduce/ overprepare. I very much enjoy the game in that aspect. After all, I mostly megabase and eventually aim to turn the entire world from an untamed nature into a beautiful garden and city. But regardless of that, I am always going to have a heart of the world, where I spend most time.

It's more about the fact that I then have to spend 5 minutes walking to the edge of the biome that lies in the direction of the point of interest I am trying to get to. I just really, really do not enjoy long distances to traverse. 

Imo wormholes are just as unreliable as the general world shape itself. Having useful wormholes is just as much of a gamble as having a good world shape to begin with or a decent cave system etc. 

"I don't have to do that"

Well, welcome to human nature. We don't choose what we enjoy or what we like. And I don't play games in a way that I don't enjoy them. Do you force yourself to play in ways that are not fun to you?

I am happy for you that you enjoy just jumping into an uncharted world and see what you get, regardless of the layout. I sadly do not enjoy that. Not after having done that for thousands of hours since the game first came out in 2013.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the devs need to overhaul the world generation and biomes in general. 

For example I believe that the new Waterlogged biome would nicely complement the swamp if it was part of its shore. Provided that Klei refreshes the swamp.

The biomes feel really stale in that once you see 5% of it you've seen all of it (with very few exceptions)

Imo devs should try and create 2 separate bodies of water: ocean and rivers, with rivers replacing those weird, thin parts of the coean that separate the biomes. You cannot build boats on a river but you'd be able to create a bridge that lets you walk across it. Near the ocean player would be able to place down boats. Maybe a pier, that could serve some sort of function or just for decoration. Some fish would only swim in the ocean and some only in the rivers.

And yes, more setpieces. They make the game a bit more immersive, in that you feel like there actually were some survivors before you. Also refresh some of the existing ones such as the pig villages.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Please be aware that the content of this thread may be outdated and no longer applicable.

×
×
  • Create New...