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What do you think about Pick and Swap characters?


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Mainly talking about Warly, Winona, Wormwood.

Don't you think its a bit unfair for them to be picked and then instantly swapped after sucking all of the upsides without suffering from their downsides? Talking mostly about Warly and Wormwood, since Winona doesn't have downsides. From start to finish you have to suffer from Warly diet variety or not be able to heal yourself with Food as Wormwood? Using salves instead of your your masterpiece dishes, because inventory is not infinite and you can't hold 10 different healing dishes and can't heal yourself just by eating piles of pierogis when fighting bee queen for example as Warly.

Do I feel rewarded for buffing my team with Pepper, Garlic, Honey and Volt Jelly? Yes!

Do I feel scammed that I know i could just use easier character, to do all the farming, resource stockpiling and then swap to Warly for couple of days to make his food, Wrap it, swap back to "easier" character and then never back to poor Warly. Yes! Imagine if all could use Wickerbottom's books (I know Maxwell can)? Not like being an old, sleepless hag is a big of a deal disadvantage, but still...

Why can't those characters be needed in the world for their stuff to work?

Like:

Only when Winona is present, her generators can be powered and fueled or maybe make her to be the only one who can use them.

Wormwood will still be exploited, since there no way to restrict his living log milking mechanics.

(This might sound stupid) Only When Warly is present in the world, his food buffs and spices will work. Or maybe when Warly hand feeds other survivors, only then they will get his dish/spices benefits (This might be stupid too, since feeding each and every character with different foods like Asparga thingy or Dragon Chili shiet may be tedious and annoying).

But you know what i mean. I want others to appreciate my hunger and healing struggles, that im staying in the game with a character that have annoying downside, just to bless my teammates with cool buffs, But when we have all the goodies from the red crock pot bundled, they say "We don't need Warly anymore. Swap to something useful."...

Same with Winona. She crafts, she builds and not needed anymore. At this point we can simply delete those characters and make their stuff available to others by default.

Maybe another rework pass will make them worth playing without swapping, i hope so.

What do you think?

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Bad game design. But Wormwood is definitely not a pick and swap... Have you kept up with his changes? Permanent bloom makes him already a better WX-78. Plus the wetness changes, his neutrality to killer bees, the ability to tend to crops and bypass the use of a gardening hoe, the ability to eat monster food, red mushrooms etc., his crops lasting longer, Sea Weed and Lure Plant neutrality, craftable diet Jellybeans in the form of compost wrap and his easy sanity management. He's probably one of the most beneficial characters in the game.

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Wormwood is 100% not a pick and swap. His living logs aren't even the best thing about him, and you usually end up with a bunch of living logs, Wormwood or not. If you think the only good thing about wormwood is his ability to craft living logs, you're missing out. 

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I hate the idea of it, but I live with it lol. They need a strong perk that isn't just "makes-a-thing".

  • Give Winona a workbench or something that allows her to repair tools, weapons, and armor. Make it require tape to use, but only Winona can use the workbench.
  • Make Warly have doubled food buff effects, both from the dishes themselves and the spices.

These don't make the characters broken, but give them a nifty little use that might promote someone to play as them and not just pick and swap.

Alternatively there could be a 15 day cooldown from switching characters so that people are forced to play with the character they chose, but I don't recall that idea being too popular. I'm cool with either though.

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im wormwood in a server with a warly and winona... not exactly sure how to feel about this thread

but i'll still throw my 2 cents in:

im not exactly fond of the idea of "swap characters" because you can totally have fun with these characters without playing them just for a build. i get that a lot of people are focused on maximum efficiency but imo focusing on that 100% is not fun at all. 

as people have mentioned before, wormwood is far from a swap character, especially with RWYS. i dont think i have to go further into that what was already said

we've found a lot of niche but fun uses for winona. trusty tapes work exactly like sewing kits, but cheaper, and winona's examination quotes for all of wagstaff's tools in the moon storms made it a lot easier to go through with that. and sure, you could memorize all the tools but at the time we were doing this for the first time

and i've seen so many people before say just how fun it is to play warly because he isnt easy mode. just because you could make a whole bunch of spicy goat jellies, moqueca, etc. and bundle it all up for later that doesnt have to be the only thing warly is used for. + with how we play in my server, with me being able to grow so many crops at once it would be highly inconvinent for our warly to keep swapping every time the garlic and pepper go bad just for spices

a lot of this is anecdote but my point is people can have fun with these characters and that is ok

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Calling warly pick and swap is kinda silly his portable crock pot alone is plenty of reason to play him he gets access to meals and bonuses on the go all while being able to cook while fighting or working. His belly size also gives him alot of breathing room when it comes to dealing with hunger and his chef pouch is very useful in the first year for extending the life of light bulbs, glow berries, and hambats. His bonuses are shareable but he has more than enough reason to play him in my opinion atleast.

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I don't like how easy it is to get Warly and Winona's benefits while playing as someone else, and I would consider the few benefits those two have that only apply while playing them to be very marginal (and Warly has a major downside to go with it). I think characters whose perk value is mostly in the form of items they can craft should have been left in DS singleplayer, where swapping characters requires you to either give up your world except for what you can carry in your inventory or complete Adventure Mode and most character-specific items go up in smoke when you do change characters that way, and Warly and Winona would be better off if they had at least one strong perk each that could only be used while playing them. Wigfrid was a good example of a character with both good inherent perks that only applied to herself and good craftable items that everyone else could use, even pre-rework; I think Wormwood fits that description as well nowadays, following the Reap What You Sow update.

However, I saw how incredibly inconvenient it was to change characters before the Celestial Portal if you simply changed your mind about who you wanted to play - the only way to do it was to use console commands to despawn your character, and doing so removed your map and recipes - and I wouldn't want to go back to that. Any way to switch characters without losing progress that's within the reach of a new or casual to intermediate player is trivial enough for advanced players that it also invites exploitation of character-specific craftable items; nerfing character swapping isn't the answer. The only way to make people stop switching to Warly or Winona to craft a bunch of stuff and then immediately swapping to someone else to get the benefits of both characters' perks is to give Warly and Winona some good perks that are just for themselves and can't be shared with everybody on the server.

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Overall I think a character should benefit more from their kit than other characters that can take use of it as well. I see a lot of examples with recent character refreshes and Webber's upcoming refresh solidifies the idea for me.

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27 minutes ago, CameoAppearance said:

I don't like how easy it is to get Warly and Winona's benefits while playing as someone else, and I would consider the few benefits those two have that only apply while playing them to be very marginal (and Warly has a major downside to go with it). I think characters whose perk value is mostly in the form of items they can craft should have been left in DS singleplayer, where swapping characters requires you to either give up your world except for what you can carry in your inventory or complete Adventure Mode and most character-specific items go up in smoke when you do change characters that way, and Warly and Winona would be better off if they had at least one strong perk each that could only be used while playing them. Wigfrid was a good example of a character with both good inherent perks that only applied to herself and good craftable items that everyone else could use, even pre-rework; I think Wormwood fits that description as well nowadays, following the Reap What You Sow update.

However, I saw how incredibly inconvenient it was to change characters before the Celestial Portal if you simply changed your mind about who you wanted to play - the only way to do it was to use console commands to despawn your character, and doing so removed your map and recipes - and I wouldn't want to go back to that. Any way to switch characters without losing progress that's within the reach of a new or casual to intermediate player is trivial enough for advanced players that it also invites exploitation of character-specific craftable items; nerfing character swapping isn't the answer. The only way to make people stop switching to Warly or Winona to craft a bunch of stuff and then immediately swapping to someone else to get the benefits of both characters' perks is to give Warly and Winona some good perks that are just for themselves and can't be shared with everybody on the server.

Warly could get an added +20% stats to every dish he makes in his crockpot, or maybe even 2 meals produced per crockpot use. Make him useful to feed teams. Winona just needs to be scrapped and redone completely

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While yes, as other people have already said, Winona and Warly need something that would be very beneficial but only if you play these character.

But I think this "pick and swap" feature should be left in the game so people can stockpile Warly's dishes and spices and build and use Winona's catapults and accumulators because there are A LOT of people that play DST solo and removing the ability to do these things will just ruin a lot of fun for many people.

If YOU don't want to swap characters for an acces for Warly's buffs from his dishes or for Winona's catapults to make awesome fighting arenas... just don't do it! Not all people play the game the way you do and not all people will love the way you play. Making game harder by removing such things will just ruins the fun imho. Harder ≠ better.

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I think Winona needs portable utility. Silly idea time: I'd like to see a motorised cart for Winona. They'd deploy and travel in one direction until they hit an obstacle, similar to a rook. Additions would give them properties such as cargo carrying, player carrying, perhaps even catapult mounted ones, steerable ones, ones that ram down through trees and enemies, stuff like that. They would obviously only work with Winona around. 

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58 minutes ago, Well-met said:

Character change is ok and can stay in the game, but the execution needs a tweak

and the op trio needs a stop. and give wino another rework.

What is OP trio? Wolfgang, Wortox, Wendy i guess?

About Wolfgang. Imagine being able to munch a potato, to deal 2x damage, receive 33% less damage and be 25% faster. While having a huge 10% more sanity drain downside to compensate.

About Wendy. Imagine playing a character that will deal with all basic threats and mobs without you lifting a finger? That can kill one of the strongest Raid Bosses with minimal resources spent. Dealing 25% less damage as a downside, but dealing even more damage thanks to Abigail petal debuff. The only downside that she can't oneshot small critters with boomerang.

And Wortox... I can kill smallest stuff to sustain myself forever. Don't even need a base basically.

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17 minutes ago, SkyistheGround said:

usually people refer to wolfgang, wx, and wickerbottom when they talk about the op trio

I think its past op trio.

Wickerbottom is no longer a good food grower. Her best perk is to grow Twigs and Grass now.

WX78? What so special about WX78? He can eat almost spoiled food, and thats kinda cool. Yes, he can eat gears to get max stats, but what the point if you still need to fill them as everyone else. Yes he can get overcharged to be fast as sonic with a light source, but how do you get this on a regular basis, without Wicker book?

Or you referred them as OP trio when playing together?

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1 minute ago, Keller Max said:

I think its past op trio.

Wickerbottom is no longer a good food grower. Her best perk is to grow Twigs and Grass now.

WX78? What so special about WX78? He can eat almost spoiled food, and thats kinda cool. Yes, he can eat gears to get max stats, but what the point if you still need to fill them as everyone else. Yes he can get overcharged to be fast as sonic with a light source, but how do you get this on a regular basis, without Wicker book?

wolfgang i also see as overhyped like he can fight bosses really fast cool. what else? if you aren't fighting something which a lot of the time you aren't you are just having a fast hunger drain with no upside i don't believe this trio was really all that except for maybe pre rwys wickerbottom with a wormwood

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1 minute ago, Dextops said:

wolfgang i also see as overhyped like he can fight bosses really fast cool. what else? if you aren't fighting something which a lot of the time you aren't you are just having a fast hunger drain with no upside i don't believe this trio was really all that except for maybe pre rwys wickerbottom with a wormwood

But you can also remain in a Wimpy form, since having slightly decreased move speed is not that big of disadvantage.

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1 minute ago, Keller Max said:

WX78? What so special about WX78? He can eat almost spoiled food, and thats kinda cool. Yes, he can eat gears to get max stats, but what the point if you still need to fill them as everyone else. Yes he can get overcharged to be fast as sonic with a light source, but how do you get this on a regular basis, without Wicker book?

cant comment on wicker cus i dont play her 

gears are a very powerful food source in general for wx, without taking into account they can go up to 400 hp and 300 sanity, highest of any character possible. very good for ruins rushing cus if you get too beaten up along the way (which, at 400 hp, takes a while) you can eat some the gears you're getting to recover pretty quickly. 

also in general having 400 hp means you dont die as fast if you happen to get hit

telelocator staff allows you to stay pretty consistently overcharged, not sure why people don't talk about this one often. resources used to make it get pretty easy to amass when youre far enough in

this might be getting slightly off topic

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1 minute ago, SkyistheGround said:

cant comment on wicker cus i dont play her 

gears are a very powerful food source in general for wx, without taking into account they can go up to 400 hp and 300 sanity, highest of any character possible. very good for ruins rushing cus if you get too beaten up along the way (which, at 400 hp, takes a while) you can eat some the gears you're getting to recover pretty quickly. 

also in general having 400 hp means you dont die as fast if you happen to get hit

telelocator staff allows you to stay pretty consistently overcharged, not sure why people don't talk about this one often. resources used to make it get pretty easy to amass when youre far enough in

this might be getting slightly off topic

I completely forgot about Telelocator stuff causing lightning strike. Thanks for the reminder.

I guess i'll take it back. WX78 might be too good in right hands, basically a very enduring piece of metal.

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Warly and Winona would need some "selfish perks" (unique benefits) to become more desirable, and fun for all-runs. Aka maybe Warly should gain, akin DS, bons from certain/portable Crock Pot foods; and Winona machines should perhaps be refillable with fuel by Winona-players only. Likewise, to mitigate character swap frenzy, a 20-days Celestial Portal cool-down per player switching characters could be implemented. And/or a more-costly Moon Rock Idol - let's say 1x Purple Moonlens + 5 Moon Rocks.

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11 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Warly and Winona would need some "selfish perks" (unique benefits) to become more desirable, and fun for all-runs. Aka maybe Warly should gain, akin DS, bons from certain/portable Crock Pot foods; and Winona machines should perhaps be refillable with fuel by Winona-players only. Likewise, to mitigate character swap frenzy, a 20-days Celestial Portal cool-down per player switching characters could be implemented. And/or a more-costly Moon Rock Idol - let's say 1x Purple Moonlens + 5 Moon Rocks.

Better balance characters, then to balance portal. Portal will be unbalanced as long as you can swap characters on it.

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