What do you think about Pick and Swap characters?

[MikoFanboy]

if you enjoy Pick and Swap characters, then you do you, if you don't, then don't do it?

Personally, I don't have any problem with it

I don't abuse it because I don't find the fun of abusing it, but I do use it sometimes due to getting bored after playing a character for too long or try out a new DLC character.

If the others like to abuse it because they enjoy doing it then it's their choice. DST is a game, a survival sandbox game, so let them do whatever they enjoy and if you don't want to do the same thing? well, just don't do it?

Nobody force you to abuse the mechanic so why try to force them to stop abusing the mechanic that they enjoy? You can argue that it is't fun, and I agree. But that is our opinion, not their 

 

from what I saw from every people who complain about the Pick and Swap, they are:

1) enjoy the difficulty of the game.

2) somewhat annoyed when seeing other play with or just enjoy the easier difficulty by abusing gameplay mechanic 

something along the line

"Being creative and think outside of the box is fine as long as your method doesn't make your gameplay easier than mine", 

"Every fight must be fought with your weapon, using a catapult, Houndius Shootius,.. is cheating, lazy", 

"your method makes the game easier for you and that is wrong because I like the difficult gameplay, that was what the game intends to (IMO but your too because you have to)"

3) and the irony, some of them are the ones who gonna abuse it because they can while continue complaining about how OP it is 

 

 

[Superlucas1231]

21 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Klei is on record liking emergent gameplay, and putting fun factor over balance concerns.

But didn't Klei nerf Wicker and bunnymen in the RWYS update? And, correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't they do they specifically because they didn't want Wicker to gloss over the new farming mechanics by just spamming AP? And then nerfing bunnymen at the same time so people can't get an unbelievably easy access to meaty stew and vegetable filler for pierogi/other foodstuff from    just one source?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 minutes ago, Superlucas1231 said:

But didn't Klei nerf Wicker and bunnymen in the RWYS update? And, correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't they do they specifically because they didn't want Wicker to gloss over the new farming mechanics by just spamming AP? And then nerfing bunnymen at the same time so people can't get an unbelievably easy access to meaty stew and vegetable filler for pierogi/other foodstuff from    just one source?

it was neccesary and that klei doesnt balance the game and let us play like we want doesnt mean they will do it 100% of the time if they think something needs to change

[kilobit]

i think they're fine, though i will admit i think there needs to be more incentive to actually continue playing as winona once you've gotten your machines down

[Yuuko]

38 minutes ago, Superlucas1231 said:

But didn't Klei nerf Wicker and bunnymen in the RWYS update? And, correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't they do they specifically because they didn't want Wicker to gloss over the new farming mechanics by just spamming AP? And then nerfing bunnymen at the same time so people can't get an unbelievably easy access to meaty stew and vegetable filler for pierogi/other foodstuff from    just one source?

Appeal to extremes eh?  So if they put fun over balance they must NEVER balance their game?  That's one way to look at it...

[Lokena]

To be honest, it's always been very strange for me that people put Warly on this list. I can understand Winona, but Warly is one of the "main" characters for me, I love playing with him just as much as with Wendy after her update, and he's the one I always start the game with. I've liked him ever since he first appeared in Shipwreck, and every addition since then has only made him better for me. On the contrary, the "pick and swap" character for me is Wolfgang. Or Wigfrid. I use them very rarely and only for boss fights, since I play solo. So I think the whole attitude, who is replaceable and who's not, who is more interesting to play with, it's all mostly personal.

Otherwise... I think this is normal? I've always been positive about ability to switch characters, because I want to have access to all of their powers, and even when I changed a character for some of their abilities, I rarely immediately change them to someone else, I played them for a while. Not because it seemed "fairer" to me, but because there are always things I wanted to do with them, and I didn't change them until I had a real need for someone else's abilities.

Of course, it would be nice if the characters wouldn't have only created items that everyone can use, but also have a unique game style, but it seemed to me that the characters you listed already have this. Winona can craft a lot of items quickly, and they both have unique hunger-related mechanics, which in itself can be fun. Yes, in case of Winona, such traits could be a little more noticeable, and the very possibility of changing the character could have some cooldown, but other than that, I never saw this as such a big problem. Although, of course, this is only my opinion. 

The only thing I can say for sure is that if someone requires you to change a character just because they think it's useless, while you honestly like playing them, that's their problem and they don't have the right to tell you what to do. And even now, people mention that they kick new players off the servers at the first appearance just because they chose the "wrong" character, which never sounded fair to me. This is a team game, but the overall profit of the team shouldn't always be higher than the personal pleasure of the players. Otherwise, it can be very successful, but at the same time incredibly boring. If this was the real goal of the game, it just wouldn't have had different characters in the first place. Their balance could always be better, and players will always feel that someone is more useful or interesting than the other, this is the truth of life and there is no ideal. But I still think such statements are too harsh.

[Keller Max]

56 minutes ago, 0bit said:

i think they're fine, though i will admit i think there needs to be more incentive to actually continue playing as winona once you've gotten your machines down

Same with Warly. If I've been given a one small buff to give it to Warly, I would just remove Sanity and Health penalty from repetitive dishes. That would honestly fix his biggest downside. Just imagine, A Great and mega inventive Master Chef has to use Salves and Honey Poultices in long boss fights or long ruin runs instead of FOOD that he was made to make, because eating 3 pierogis in a short period of time is YACK, so you have to fill your whole inventory with different expensive dishes + Hunger foods.

You can judge how good is a character himself by taking his crafts, builds that can benefit other characters.

You take Winona's Catapults, She will still be able to fast/mass craft things, free Charlie Hit.

Take Wormwood's Green Thumb. He can Bloom, He is still good farmer, Can regain sanity easily. (Unable to be healed with food is very big downside)

Take Wigfrid helmets. She is still a good fighter with lifesteal.

Aaaaand now take Warly Spices and Special dishes. We have a forever hungry (20% faster hunger drain) dude who can't eat great non crock pot foods like Roasted Potato, Pumpkins, Blue mushrooms, etc..., And benefit less with the same dish, so you have to find too many sources of food, just to ease your disadvantage a little bit. Oh! He can't even rely on healing food, because all characters can just put 20 pierogis or dragonpies in a single slot, while you have to dedicate each slot for different dish. OR just use healing salves, which is ironical. You see? No upsides. Would you pick Warly just for his Portable crock pot? I don't think so. Because in long run worlds, characters are left with only character specific downsides and upsides (upsides which Warly doesn't have, like at all)

Just rebalance Characters in specific. Not their crafts or builds.

26 minutes ago, Lokena said:

To be honest.

Maybe its a stupid question, but what if you were able to chose a character for only his personal perks. That means excluding things like their crafts, builds, foods. Would you pick Wilson, with his beard or Warly with his crock pot, but without his special dishes and spices?

Doesn't matter how i love Warly, i would never chose him in that scenario. Mainly because maintaining his hunger quirks is a big chore. Maybe if he had something interesting beside his portable crock pot (you can't even use it effectively without overfilling your inventory with different combinations of foods). Something that would compensate all those disadvantages, then maybe i would consider him over Wilson.

But there is no reason to play him after you sucked everything from his kit, because there are more advantages anymore. You are left with his hunger, need of farms, and disability to get effective healing from foods.

[Lokena]

30 minutes ago, Keller Max said:

Maybe its a stupid question, but what if you were able to chose a character for only his personal perks. That means excluding things like their crafts, builds, foods. Would you pick Wilson, with his beard or Warly with his crock pot, but without his special dishes?

I can't speak for Wilson, he's too "ordinary" for me to like him. But I've always played as Warly in Shipwreck, where, let me remind you, he has almost no improvements from the co-op game and only a couple of personal recipes. The fact that he was given more interesting features in DST is amazing, but that was never the only reason I loved this character. So to answer your question - yes, I would choose him. In fact, this is the first thing I did when he was ported to the co-op, and then he didn't have these new advantages, on the contrary, there was a bigger disadvantage compared to the single-player game, because in DS he can still eat food not from the crockpot, it just gives him less satiety. 

And it's not just him. In fact, a lot of my likes and dislikes don't really come from the characters personal crafting stuff, but from their mechanics. For example, it's great that Wendy now has potions, but what really made me love her was the more manageable Abigail(in DS, I hated her and just couldn't play for her). I like the mechanics of the slingshot and the special relationship with sanity, but I don't particularly care what kind of projectiles Walter can create. In the same way, the fact that Wigfrid is a meat eater attracts me much more than her new songs, which I think many people find a strange improvement. And using Wormwood only as a source of living logs is honestly the strangest thing I've ever heard, I've never used him for that, although I just adore this character, he's literally the epitome of my OC, which I came up with independently of Klei before he arrived, and which has exactly the kind of plant and sanity mechanics I've always wanted. He's perfect for Hamlet and his health mechanics are unique. Winona, to be honest, is the only one for me with whom I at least can understand what people don't like about unique craft items. But she's an exception. Otherwise, if there were no such items, I would be completely fine with choosing characters based on their mechanics only, because that's what I always do. 

[Keller Max]

15 minutes ago, Lokena said:

I can't speak for Wilson, he's too "ordinary" for me to like him. But I've always played as Warly in Shipwreck, where, let me remind you, he has almost no improvements from the co-op game and only a couple of personal recipes. The fact that he was given more interesting features in DST is amazing, but that was never the only reason I loved this character. So to answer your question - yes, I would choose him. In fact, this is the first thing I did when he was ported to the co-op, and then he didn't have these new advantages, on the contrary, there was a bigger disadvantage compared to the single-player game, because in DS he can still eat food not from the crockpot, it just gives him less satiety. 

I guess you are in minority then. Considering how this community love "easy" ways of doing stuff. But i've never played with you and don't know your playstyle. You can be like those Warlys that live near the kitchen and iceboxes making meatballs, meaty stews and maybe Moquecas with Bone bouillons non stop. In that case, his disadvantages are not that bad. Or you may be that one who tries to do everything. Killing bosses, sailing, ruin scavenging, and my god. Nothing is worse than to be left hungry on a boat with monster meat and kelps. Yeah, i know you can prepare better, by taking lots of different foods, but it takes too much time and too much space and its a chore. Other characters can do that better. 

Spices and Foods are S tier, but Warly himself is an F tier.

I know Warly is suppose to more of a team player, but i don't want to always rely on my team. I also love solo aspects of this game.

[Lokena]

25 minutes ago, Keller Max said:

I guess you are in minority then.

Well, if you're interested in my playing style, I'm a solo player who does everything. I won't say I always sit on the base, but I've never really understood the others obsession with meatballs as the "perfect" recipe, seriously, I so rarely cook it. I have too many ingredients for a more interesting meal. As for long trips somewhere - I have an ice box and an extra crockpot on the boat(which is convenient not only for Warly, there is not enough food for anyone in the sea and I'm not going to starve there), and I take some of the ingredients with me before going on a boat trip. Plus, there is a bee wrapper, where you can put several different dishes for a trip to the ruins, for example. The longer you stay there, the less space is occupied, so clogging up your inventory isn't a problem. And another thing from your argument that I don't understand is the use of food for heal. Yes, it can help if you come to the base after a battle, but I'm talking specifically about preparing a stack of food before going to boss, for example. I've never done this before and I don't see any benefit in it, it's a waste of the satiety that all these dishes could give. You talk about bandages as something bad, but why? They are convenient to carry with you for any character and they never spoil, so why is this suddenly a disadvantage? Other characters may be better for certain tasks, and I don't play Warly all the time. But for me, that doesn't make him any worse or less interesting in any way. I don't deny that I'm a minority, but this is my point of view and I really doubt I'm the only one. Characters are not just their unique items.

[Keller Max]

7 minutes ago, Lokena said:

Well, if you're interested in my playing style, I'm a solo player who does everything. I won't say I always sit on the base, but I've never really understood the others obsession with meatballs as the "perfect" recipe, seriously, I so rarely cook it. I have too many ingredients for a more interesting meal. As for long trips somewhere - I have an ice box and an extra crockpot on the boat(which is convenient not only for Warly, there is not enough food for anyone in the sea and I'm not going to starve there), and I take some of the ingredients with me before going on a boat trip. Plus, there is a bee wrapper, where you can put several different dishes for a trip to the ruins, for example. The longer you stay there, the less space is occupied, so clogging up your inventory isn't a problem. And another thing from your argument that I don't understand is the use of food for heal. Yes, it can help if you come to the base after a battle, but I'm talking specifically about preparing a stack of food before going to boss, for example. Why, if it takes a lot of time and you can just carry a stack of bandages, which, moreover, never deteriorate? Other characters may be better for certain tasks, and I don't play Warly all the time. But for me, that doesn't make him any worse or less interesting in any way. I don't deny that I'm a minority, but this is my point of view and I really doubt I'm the only one. Characters are not just their unique items.

It doesn't cancel the fact that he is not worth playing at some point. Bad design. Hope for changes in a future.

As for you still playing it, no matter what, i can compare it to fighting enraged Klaus instead of a regular Klaus, not worth, but you still doing it for some reason.

[Lokena]

39 minutes ago, Keller Max said:

It doesn't cancel the fact that he is not worth playing at some point. Bad design. Hope for changes in a future.

As for you still playing it, no matter what, i can compare it to fighting enraged Klaus instead of a regular Klaus, not worth, but you still doing it for some reason.

This is... a really strange comparison. I don't consider myself a player who is looking for a challenge, but at the same time, what is the point of total simplification? Many players, on the contrary, complain that the game is getting easier over time and that it's not fit into its original spirit.

You say that these characters need to get rid of their shortcomings so that they can be "better", but I would be upset if the developers did this. Disadvantages are just as much a part of the mechanics, part of what makes them interesting. I wouldn't want Wormwood to lose his unique health situation or for Warly to be able to eat raw food again. On the contrary, I considered this detail an improvement over the original game.

You don't like to deal with his culinary tastes, okay, but someone likes to cook different food. What you consider as a flaw may be a reason for others to love these characters. Hell, the whole point of Wes is that he has "no" advantage. What, the game should get rid of him now? And if you're making that comparison, I know a guy who had a fight with enraged Klaus. Like a speedrun. Playing for Wes. And for him, it was part of the fun. Such players exist, and if the game didn't have content for them, it wouldn't make it suddenly better. The very fact that Klaus has additional forms is not made for all players to fight him only in the simplest way ever.

If you don't like these characters for personal reasons, that's totally fine, just don't play them. But please don't call them useless in general. Value is a very relative thing and what is "worth it" or "not worth it", each person decides for himself personally. So it's not a "fact" as you put it. My world is a few thousand days old and I'm still happy to play for Warly, not because of his seasonings, but because of who he is.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, Keller Max said:

I would just remove Sanity and Health penalty from repetitive dishes. That would honestly fix his biggest downside.

and remove the most interesting thing about him

47 minutes ago, Keller Max said:

Bad design

my god...

[MAMMAL_MAN]

Here are my thoughts of pick and swap characters: Its totally fine since you can choose to swap characters if you wanted to. though it would be great if characters like Winona get another refresh to make them more unique, instead of using them as tools to support whatever you need to do (such as Winona only being used for her catapults).

The only thing I don't like about it is that the celestial orb is just too easy to get (basically RNG with meteor strikes) so you can character swap pretty early in the game. imo having a threshold (like going to lunar island) to get the celestial orb would be fine

[Keller Max]

12 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

and remove the most interesting thing about him

my god...

Its interesting to eat different food to fill the hunger, but its mega annoying to be restricted in healing solutions. And to bypass it, you have to completely fill your inventory with unique dishes, removing space for many important things. Or simply use other  healing methods like salves. So we have a character that doesn't benefit from his main thing, cooking. Nice... I don't like this. Its not fun. And i don't think that people would demand an instant nerf if they buffed him. Him only. Not his dishes.

7 minutes ago, MAMMAL_MAN said:

Here are my thoughts of pick and swap characters: Its totally fine since you can choose to swap characters if you wanted to. though it would be great if characters like Winona get another refresh to make them more unique, instead of using them as tools to support whatever you need to do (such as Winona only being used for her catapults).

The only thing I don't like about it is that the celestial orb is just too easy to get (basically RNG with meteor strikes) so you can character swap pretty early in the game. imo having a threshold (like going to lunar island) to get the celestial orb would be fine

As for Winona. I think she's fine. She is not a chore to play after you settled her farms. A little buff to her Character (not her builds), would make people to play on her from the start to the end. Repairing Weapons and Armors would be such a good and unique thing for her.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 minutes ago, Keller Max said:

Its interesting to eat different food to fill the hunger, but its mega annoying to be restricted in healing solutions. And to bypass it, you have to completely fill your inventory with unique dishes, removing space for many important things. Or simply use other  healing methods like salves. So we have a character that doesn't benefit from his main thing, cooking. Nice... I don't like this. Its not fun.

is okay if you dont like it but isnt a bad desing and neither should be removed. He is so strong but the player needs many experience to dont be dependient of having x40 pierogi in every boss fight

also is interesting because you research for better healing and sanity options like surf n turf instead of using just cacti and pierogi

[Lokena]

23 minutes ago, Keller Max said:

So we have a character that doesn't benefit from his main thing, cooking. 

And what makes you think that he should take benefit from it? He is a chef with a fine taste, a lover of variety, and not a former champion on "who will eat the most" competition. Everything in his design is made so that he cooks better, doesn't eat better. You don't just want to get rid of his flaws, you want to completely rewrite his essence as a character.

And if we're talking about the "benefits" of food, he still has recipes with special properties that, unlike spices, are harder to pass on to other characters through swap because of the spoilage rate.

[Keller Max]

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

is okay if you dont like it but isnt a bad desing and neither should be removed. He is so strong but the player needs many experience to dont be dependient of having x40 pierogi in every boss fight

also is interesting because you research for better healing and sanity options like surf n turf instead of using just cacti and pierogi

I love Warly. Its my favorite character in term his unique perks. But i started playing different, more basic, characters such as Willow, Wickerbottom, WX. Its so much easier and straightforward. I don't need to setup 10 different farms to not die of hunger because of lack of variety. He is too team reliant i think. He is giving too much and doesn't take much for himself. I want him to have more selfish upsides.

[QuartzBeam]

27 minutes ago, MAMMAL_MAN said:

The only thing I don't like about it is that the celestial orb is just too easy to get (basically RNG with meteor strikes) so you can character swap pretty early in the game. imo having a threshold (like going to lunar island) to get the celestial orb would be fine

The Celestial Orb is not needed to swap characters. You can craft the Portal Paraphernalia and Moon Rock Idol in the Celestial Altar... which you get by going to the Lunar Island.

Speaking of which, going to the Lunar Island is probably faster (and certainly more reliable) than waiting for a meteor shower to drop the Celestial Orb for you.

[Keller Max]

8 minutes ago, Lokena said:

And what makes you think that he should take benefit from it? He is a chef with a fine taste, a lover of variety, and not a former champion on "who will eat the most" competition. Everything in his design is made so that he cooks better, doesn't eat better. You don't just want to get rid of his flaws, you want to completely rewrite his essence as a character.

I didn't say completely. I said partially.

[QuartzBeam]

2 minutes ago, Keller Max said:

I don't need to setup 10 different farms to not die of hunger because of lack of variety.

If only Warly could survive indefinitely by eating nothing Meatballs and Meaty Stew...

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, Keller Max said:

I love Warly. Its my favorite character in term his unique perks. But i started playing different, more basic, characters such as Willow, Wickerbottom, WX. Its so much easier and straightforward. I don't need to setup 10 different farms to not die of hunger because of lack of variety. He is too team reliant i think. He is giving too much and doesn't take much for himself. I want him to have more selfish upsides.

not being similar as willow, wicker or wx is part of his charm. His downside is a gamechanging which is very welcome because completely change the way of playing. Downsides that changes the way of playing is what makes this game fresh after many hours of play time

his upsides are very strong, maybe he could have more buff time for him so people stop crying about celestial portal but that wont make him stronger or less swaped anyways

[Keller Max]

Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

not being similar as willow, wicker or wx is part of his charm. His downside is a gamechanging which is very welcome because completely change the way of playing. Downsides that changes the way of playing is what makes this game fresh after many hours of play time

his upsides are very strong, maybe he could have more buff time for him so people stop crying about celestial portal but that wont make him stronger or less swaped anyways

I'm just saying that some of his downsides can be less harsher without ruining his uniqueness. I'm talking for myself. I find annoying in the long run, mainly the inability to heal using a single inventory slot. Yeah, surfnturf is a great stuff besides pierogi or dragonpie. But i doubt its worth eating more than 3 of them at once. And using like 30% of your inventory for heals... I just don't like it and find it more annoying than interesting.

As i said before. I love his main quirk, but it could be more refined.

[QuartzBeam]

3 minutes ago, Keller Max said:

I find annoying in the long run, mainly the inability to heal using a single inventory slot.

Healing Salves, Honey Poultice, Jellybeans, Bat Bat.

[Keller Max]

9 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

Healing Salves, Honey Poultice, Jellybeans, Bat Bat.

Sorry. I meant with food. Warly is all food focused character so he should benefit atleast the same as other characters with it.

Would it really ruin the character if food health gain wasn't penalized?