Is Klei ok with griefing at their own servers?

[Cheggf]

12 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

KLei didn't really do anything to address griefing of any kind

u can make new volt goats w/ animal tracks

[fimmatek]

I'd vote for a "Proper moderation or new, extensive anti-griefing measurements would require too much time and resources, so they rather invest that energy into new content." option.

[MondayNight]

11 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

u can make new volt goats w/ animal tracks

That wasn't related to griefing. People complained, mostly for long-running servers, they accidentally had pushed their goats into extinction via various ways (goats being close to Swamp and tentacles, giants attacking them, killed all by mistake when farming etc). Also let's be real here: how many pub griefers go for Goats extinction? Not even the ones burning all Swamp Reeds on Endless servers aren't more than a very-rare *blip* on the griefing radar. As stated, most griefers either burn/smash around gate, go for yeeting of communal base or spawn detrimental elements in Florid Postern/Touchstones/bases.

[CarlZalph]

The problem with moderating a server is that there's different definitions and degrees of tolerance for what is or isn't considered "griefing".

If Klei were to fully moderate their servers 24/7, ignoring logistics, then a rule set would be put into place to determine what would or wouldn't have punishments attached.  Not everyone would agree to the set rules.

 

As a simple example, look at the Pig King biome with the pig houses there.  Typically I find that a lot of people say hammering these houses down is griefing.  Some say hammering a house or two is fine.  Then the more rare case says that it doesn't matter and will hammer everything.

Who is right and who is wrong?

I feel the answer to that should be left up to the players playing on the server at the time to dictate, as ultimately the group there is playing the game for fun and the definition of what is fun changes from person to person.

By having Klei enforce a certain rule set it dictates indirectly what is to be considered fun.

 

The in-game voting options to kick players and rollback damage is a means to push some of the authority of the server to the players who are on the server.  It can be abused just as anything else that has power attached.  However, it could be said that Klei thought about this when they made the vote options and chose to compromise between being authoritarian versus letting the game open up the potential for different styles of play.

 

I personally prefer the hands-off approach they've taken to their servers.  Sure, the players have to be more vigilant about malicious users but it also brings to me a feeling of more freedom there.

 

 

1 hour ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Look at DST personal server population (in general ~ 23-25% from total are modded servers) and what mods are prevalent in those rooms: by far most used are ones that make the game easier in various degrees - that's the reality (check most popular Steam Workshop mods). Further more, and you can call this for what it is - anecdotal evidence, lately I for one have started to go on such random personal servers for my own fun of observing what people do and how.

From all of my snapshots, modded servers tend to be around 63% of all servers globally with a slightly smaller % of the entire playerbase playing on them.  I don't differentiate between the different groups (non-dedi vs dedi mods, password flagged, etc) in these snapshots though, so keep that in mind.

Here's one snapshot example:

    Servers: 13334
      Group Only         : 61 (0.457477)
      Mods               : 8459 (63.439328)
        Players          : 11241 (57.681650)
      No Mods            : 4875 (36.560672)
        Players          : 8247 (42.318350)
      PvP                : 344 (2.579871)
      Passworded         : 5979 (44.840258)
      Dedicated          : 10105 (75.783711)
      Client Hosted      : 9649 (72.363882)
    Players: 19488
      In Lobby: 671 (3.443144)
      Vanilla: 17872 (91.707718)
      Modded: 945 (4.849138)

The top mods (>5%) of active live servers are:

Spoiler

{Global Positions} {378160973}: 5127 (60.610001)
{Show Me (Origin)} {666155465}: 2898 (34.259369)
{Health Info} {375859599}: 2804 (33.148126)
{Wormhole Marks} {362175979}: 2280 (26.953541)
{Extra Equip Slots} {375850593}: 2198 (25.984159)
{ Simple Health Bar DST} {1207269058}: 2131 (25.192103)
{Display food values} {347079953}: 1812 (21.420972)
{[API] Gem Core} {1378549454}: 1384 (16.361272)
{Increased Stack size} {374550642}: 1303 (15.403712)
{No Thermal Stone Durability} {466732225}: 1281 (15.143634)
{Global Pause} {758532836}: 1223 (14.457974)
{Quick Pick} {501385076}: 922 (10.899634)
{Epic Healthbar} {1185229307}: 820 (9.693817)
{ Don't Drop Everything} {661253977}: 790 (9.339165)
{Smart Minisign} {1595631294}: 726 (8.582575)
{Campfire Respawn} {569043634}: 704 (8.322497)
{Fast Travel} {458587300}: 663 (7.837806)
{Moving Box} {1079538195}: 653 (7.719589)
{Infinite Tent (and Siesta) Uses } {356930882}: 640 (7.565906)
{ Storeroom} {623749604}: 635 (7.506797)
{Food Values - Item Tooltips (Server and Client)} {458940297}: 608 (7.187611)
{Display Attack Range} {2078243581}: 607 (7.175789)
{Restart} {462434129}: 544 (6.431020)
{防卡两招(Antistun)} {1216718131}: 537 (6.348268)
{45 Inventory Slots} {786556008}: 512 (6.052725)
{Myth Words-神话书说} {1991746508}: 468 (5.532569)
{Automatic chest sorting} {2321974509}: 441 (5.213382)
{Myth characters- 神话人物 ~ 花好月圆} {1699194522}: 438 (5.177917)
{Your skeleton respawn} {1271089343}: 426 (5.036056)
{DST Storm Cellar} {382177939}: 425 (5.024235)

 

 

[MondayNight]

7 minutes ago, CarlZalph said:

The problem with moderating a server is that there's different definitions and degrees of tolerance for what is or isn't considered "griefing".

If Klei were to fully moderate their servers 24/7, ignoring logistics, then a rule set would be put into place to determine what would or wouldn't have punishments attached.  Not everyone would agree to the set rules.

 

As a simple example, look at the Pig King biome with the pig houses there.  Typically I find that a lot of people say hammering these houses down is griefing.  Some say hammering a house or two is fine.  Then the more rare case says that it doesn't matter and will hammer everything.

Who is right and who is wrong?

I feel the answer to that should be left up to the players playing on the server at the time to dictate, as ultimately the group there is playing the game for fun and the definition of what is fun changes from person to person.

By having Klei enforce a certain rule set it dictates indirectly what is to be considered fun.

 

The in-game voting options to kick players and rollback damage is a means to push some of the authority of the server to the players who are on the server.  It can be abused just as anything else that has power attached.  However, it could be said that Klei thought about this when they made the vote options and chose to compromise between being authoritarian versus letting the game open up the potential for different styles of play.

 

I personally prefer the hands-off approach they've taken to their servers.  Sure, the players have to be more vigilant about malicious users but it also brings to me a feeling of more freedom there.

I understand said hands-off approach they had and the relativity of standards for what is considered griefing in general. But there are certain clear consensuses regarding griefing: I don't believe anyone would say spawning Tentacles in Florid Postern/Touchstones or blocking people in a small area around Florid Postern/Touchstones with Fossils with the express purpose of killing players is anything but griefing. On the other hand, if KLei considers any play-style - including any-and-all types of malicious actions like what I've mentioned - a valid one, then why did they fixed the ability to reset servers day 1 in 2017 after those troll incidents, and last year its corresponding console command?! By that logic, those trolls' action of going on servers, resetting them day 1 by sheer power of numbers (were 3-4), leaving, coming back later for a bis, was a most-valid play style: they got satisfaction in-game from their actions (causing misery to others).

 

17 minutes ago, CarlZalph said:

From all of my snapshots, modded servers tend to be around 63% of all servers globally with a slightly smaller % of the entire playerbase playing on them.  I don't differentiate between the different groups (non-dedi vs dedi mods, password flagged, etc) in these snapshots though, so keep that in mind.

Here's one snapshot example:

    Servers: 13334
      Group Only         : 61 (0.457477)
      Mods               : 8459 (63.439328)
        Players          : 11241 (57.681650)
      No Mods            : 4875 (36.560672)
        Players          : 8247 (42.318350)
      PvP                : 344 (2.579871)
      Passworded         : 5979 (44.840258)
      Dedicated          : 10105 (75.783711)
      Client Hosted      : 9649 (72.363882)
    Players: 19488
      In Lobby: 671 (3.443144)
      Vanilla: 17872 (91.707718)
      Modded: 945 (4.849138)

The top mods (>5%) of active live servers are:

  Hide contents

{Global Positions} {378160973}: 5127 (60.610001)
{Show Me (Origin)} {666155465}: 2898 (34.259369)
{Health Info} {375859599}: 2804 (33.148126)
{Wormhole Marks} {362175979}: 2280 (26.953541)
{Extra Equip Slots} {375850593}: 2198 (25.984159)
{ Simple Health Bar DST} {1207269058}: 2131 (25.192103)
{Display food values} {347079953}: 1812 (21.420972)
{[API] Gem Core} {1378549454}: 1384 (16.361272)
{Increased Stack size} {374550642}: 1303 (15.403712)
{No Thermal Stone Durability} {466732225}: 1281 (15.143634)
{Global Pause} {758532836}: 1223 (14.457974)
{Quick Pick} {501385076}: 922 (10.899634)
{Epic Healthbar} {1185229307}: 820 (9.693817)
{ Don't Drop Everything} {661253977}: 790 (9.339165)
{Smart Minisign} {1595631294}: 726 (8.582575)
{Campfire Respawn} {569043634}: 704 (8.322497)
{Fast Travel} {458587300}: 663 (7.837806)
{Moving Box} {1079538195}: 653 (7.719589)
{Infinite Tent (and Siesta) Uses } {356930882}: 640 (7.565906)
{ Storeroom} {623749604}: 635 (7.506797)
{Food Values - Item Tooltips (Server and Client)} {458940297}: 608 (7.187611)
{Display Attack Range} {2078243581}: 607 (7.175789)
{Restart} {462434129}: 544 (6.431020)
{防卡两招(Antistun)} {1216718131}: 537 (6.348268)
{45 Inventory Slots} {786556008}: 512 (6.052725)
{Myth Words-神话书说} {1991746508}: 468 (5.532569)
{Automatic chest sorting} {2321974509}: 441 (5.213382)
{Myth characters- 神话人物 ~ 花好月圆} {1699194522}: 438 (5.177917)
{Your skeleton respawn} {1271089343}: 426 (5.036056)
{DST Storm Cellar} {382177939}: 425 (5.024235)

 

 

Good to know - so a general >60% of all existing DST servers are using mods. I got my numbers from here. Thus my point actually gets extended into a majority of servers/players using mods that tone-down DST's difficulty as seen in the mods-list you provided. Ty!

[JoeW]

@CarlZalph did a pretty great job explaining things, and the post is dead on. 

Beyond this, we have never been convinced that solving the issue programmatically would solve the issue, it would only change it. On top of that we would have to personally moderate and control those servers, which would come with many of the same issues in addition to having a much higher cost to operating those servers.

It's actually quite similar to the Forge and Gorge situation. We've run through all the scenarios, including community moderation, tools, staffing. There are a ton of ways to "solve" it. However, none that make sense from an operational perspective within a reasonable cost. 

The best solution I have really tried to figure out a way to make work would be a subscription service that offers access to moderated servers (among other things). That would allow us to do something interesting and meaningful without being a losing proposition. But that in itself offers a ton of challenges, not the least of which is presenting that to the community without upsetting a substantial number of players. 

So, If we were to do anything different, it would likely be to just shut them down entirely. But - that seems drastic, so they stay up in their current state. It's something we talk about relatively often though.

 

[MondayNight]

Well, good to finally know KLei's view on the griefer matter.

Thus you have your answer, OP, seems everything goes on the official servers, basically griefing is ok aka "a valid play-style" like in DST's trailer with Willow yeeting a base. Clouds was in the right all this time

[ArubaroBeefalo]

11 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Well, good to finally know KLei's view on the griefer matter.

Thus you have your answer, OP, seems everything goes on the official servers, basically griefing is ok aka "a valid play-style" like in DST's trailer with Willow yeeting a base. Clouds was in the right all this time

More like, if a player wants to disturb people, there is that many ways that is impossible to stop all of them so at the end, is a waste of time to coding something to prevent a tentacle trap or a intended fire if the troll can do other kind of things like destroying resources, kill all of the mobs, etc

Bad acts dont have limit, from stealing to put words in the mouth of devs 

[JoeW]

37 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Well, good to finally know KLei's view on the griefer matter.

Thus you have your answer, OP, seems everything goes on the official servers, basically griefing is ok aka "a valid play-style" like in DST's trailer with Willow yeeting a base. Clouds was in the right all this time

And there is why sometimes you don't get a direct answer on this particular issue, and I'm sorry that this was your take away from my response. 

But hey, I thought I would give it a shot. 

No. If it were to become so much of a problem that we felt our hand was forced, just like anything else we would figure out the best way to solve the issue, but what I said above was essentially how we have thought about it up to this point.

[Mike23Ua]

8 minutes ago, JoeW said:

And there is why sometimes you don't get a direct answer on this particular issue, and I'm sorry that this was your take away from my response. 

But hey, I thought I would give it a shot. 

No. If it were to become so much of a problem that we felt our hand was forced, just like anything else we would figure out the best way to solve the issue, but what I said above was essentially how we have thought about it up to this point.

Thank You Joe for being kind enough to reply in all of this, you guys really do go above and beyond in explaining things to your players when most companies just wouldn’t bother.

I’d like to ask if this is the same reason that Xbox One never (at least that I am aware of anyway) had the option to join a Klei official/dedicated server? It sounds like it would be more trouble than what it’s worth.

[wigfrids hat]

12 minutes ago, JoeW said:

And there is why sometimes you don't get a direct answer on this particular issue, and I'm sorry that this was your take away from my response. 

But hey, I thought I would give it a shot. 

No. If it were to become so much of a problem that we felt our hand was forced, just like anything else we would figure out the best way to solve the issue, but what I said above was essentially how we have thought about it up to this point.

i've worked alongside many game developers and coders so i totally understood your position. it really is a losing battle of attrition

[GetNerfedOn]

Analysis: While Klei does not wish to dictate what players consider to be fun or enforce a set of rules, mechanics, codes or paywalls to ensure griefing does not occur, I am sure that at the end of the day Klei wishes us to play like responsible, courteous human beings.

Griefing/trolling, despite it ultimately being probable in a Klei official, is still a very rude, discouraged practice. We must take active steps to prevent it, and if it does, we have to exercise utmost patience and civilty in dealing with said situations. (A lesson I myself need to learn.) After all, despite everything, DST is just a game.

[MondayNight]

30 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

More like, if a player wants to disturb people, there is that many ways that is impossible to stop all of them so at the end, is a waste of time to coding something to prevent a tentacle trap or a intended fire if the troll can do other kind of things like destroying resources, kill all of the mobs, etc

Bad acts dont have limit, from stealing to put words in the mouth of devs 

I get it that there isn't an universal easy solution for the griefer issue, as I've previously stated, when we talk in general - hence the hands-off approach. That's why I gave the punctual Florid Postern/Touchstones protection example against spawn-kills. Because more-or-less saying "since we can't fix everything we chose to not remedy anything" doesn't sound reasonable to me. Like some others pointed in past, KLei official servers are at least perceived as the places showcasing the game at its vanilla state and how KLei meant it to be played. And then you spawn from Portal to instantly getting nixed by tentacles. Or trapped there via Fossils for a Night-Grue death. A form of griefing that cannot be avoided at all, like the server-resetting issue in 2017. At least this should be addressed with a viable solution - and I've given an example with the 5-tiles-radius-protection from the top of my head. Am sure KLei could find an even better one, yet..

 

19 minutes ago, JoeW said:

And there is why sometimes you don't get a direct answer on this particular issue, and I'm sorry that this was your take away from my response. 

But hey, I thought I would give it a shot. 

No. If it were to become so much of a problem that we felt our hand was forced, just like anything else we would figure out the best way to solve the issue, but what I said above was essentially how we have thought about it up to this point.

My take or not, at the end of day same result remains: for the time being griefing stays in game since is not seen "so much of a problem", including the spawn kills a previous post above exemplified (and experienced myself last time I've tried to play in one of the EU Survival KLei servers). Same with Touchstones. On the other hand all these situations (seen as griefing/trolling) can be swept under the "uncompromising survival" - as some others pointed as well.

[TheGoldenDonut_]

Griefing is a way of life. You can't just remove it. It will always exist, one way or another.

[wigfrids hat]

1 minute ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

I get it that there isn't an universal easy solution for the griefer issue, as I've previously stated, when we talk in general - hence the hands-off approach. That's why I gave the punctual Florid Postern/Touchstones protection example against spawn-kills. Because more-or-less saying "since we can't fix everything we chose to not remedy anything" doesn't sound reasonable to me. Like some others pointed in past, KLei official servers are at least perceived as the places showcasing the game at its vanilla state and how KLei meant it to be played. And then you spawn from Portal to instantly getting nixed by tentacles. Or trapped there via Fossils for a Night-Grue death. A form of griefing that cannot be avoided at all, like the server-resetting issue in 2017. At least this should be addressed with a viable solution - and I've given an example with the 5-tiles-radius-protection from the top of my head. Am sure KLei could find an even better one, yet..

 

My take or not, at the end of day same result remains: for the time being griefing stays in game since is not seen "so much of a problem", including the spawn kills a previous post above exemplified (and experienced myself last time I've tried to play in one of the EU Survival KLei servers). Same with Touchstones. On the other hand all these situations (seen as griefing/trolling) can be swept under the "uncompromising survival" - as some others pointed as well.

so the thing is if you make a 5-tile radious then people will just put those fossils on the ground 6 tiles away. it isnt that griefing isnt a problem it is just that the 'solution' is temporary, evermoving and often harmful to people trying to play comfortably and legitimately. noone wins in this and klei is choosing to prioritize doing good for the game over trying to wrangle people who are going to just keep griefing

[MondayNight]

Just now, TheGoldenDonut_ said:

Griefing is a way of life. You can't just remove it. It will always exist, one way or another.

With that mentality even today we will still have the day-1 vote starting for world regen.

[Seero]

7 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Point is KLei didn't really do anything to address griefing of any kind after years of complains by now, even on these forums, time-and-again from various people for various major happenings - some related to recurrent, very-persisting griefers like Clouds, using bots and such, which in its own is quite ridiculous but it is what it is. Writing "KLei doesn't care about DST in-game griefing" by now is an understatement.

Because your server is your responsibility, not Kleis.

[MondayNight]

6 minutes ago, gaymime said:

so the thing is if you make a 5-tile radious then people will just put those fossils on the ground 6 tiles away. it isnt that griefing isnt a problem it is just that the 'solution' is temporary, evermoving and often harmful to people trying to play comfortably and legitimately. noone wins in this and klei is choosing to prioritize doing good for the game over trying to wrangle people who are going to just keep griefing

Except there aren't enough Fossils in the entire world to make such a big space into a viable pen to trap people.

Once more, if we go with the fatality approach, resignation that no matter what nothing changes... nothing will change. And "we will still have the day-1 vote starting for world regen" even today.

 

4 minutes ago, Seero said:

Because your server is your responsibility, not Kleis.

I am not writing about personal servers, but KLei official ones. All this thread is about KLei's dedicated vanilla pubs and the griefing occurring in there.

[Seero]

Just now, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

I am not writing about personal servers, but KLei official ones. All this thread is about KLei's dedicated vanilla pubs and the griefing occurring in there.

if klei doesn't want to moderate their servers so be it

6 hours ago, CarlZalph said:

modded servers tend to be around 63%

We live in dark times

[MondayNight]

Just now, Seero said:

if klei doesn't want to moderate their servers so be it

And that's why my conclusion: "Thus you have your answer, OP, seems everything goes on the official servers".

Indeed from my point of view the issue is clear now, no need to persist past this post. I will avoid in future KLei official pubs plus advice anyone else wishing for healthy, friendly, long-lived pub experiences to do the same.

[Seero]

Just now, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Indeed from my point of view the issue is clear now, no need to persist past this post. I will avoid in future KLei official pubs plus advice anyone else wishing for healthy, friendly, long-lived pub experiences to do the same.

On the other hand, If the only punishment for hmm

"bad behavior" is getting vote kicked, it makes me wonder

[Mike23Ua]

15 minutes ago, gaymime said:

so the thing is if you make a 5-tile radious then people will just put those fossils on the ground 6 tiles away. it isnt that griefing isnt a problem it is just that the 'solution' is temporary, evermoving and often harmful to people trying to play comfortably and legitimately. noone wins in this and klei is choosing to prioritize doing good for the game over trying to wrangle people who are going to just keep griefing

This is what I’ve been trying to say the whole time, thanks for putting it into better words than I could: Even if Klei made a circular dome of protection from grieving a determined griever will just build their own larger grief dome around that & Klei’s efforts will have been wasted.

Its better for them to just focus on new content & character refreshes, I think.

[JoSmoCoolStuf]

If all DST players that plays on KLei servers were advised to get this mod via the server description, it would be an interesting experiment.

NoGriefer: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2007563445

 

Together, we can force griefers to buy more copies of DST to bypass banlists and support KLei!

[Notecja]

4 hours ago, JoSmoCoolStuf said:

If all DST players that plays on KLei servers were advised to get this mod via the server description, it would be an interesting experiment.

NoGriefer: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2007563445

 

Together, we can force griefers to buy more copies of DST to bypass banlists and support KLei!

I just imagined griefers using that to ban someone innocent forever.

[FuriousChimera]

1 hour ago, Notecja said:

I just imagined griefers using that to ban someone innocent forever.

It happened before, bunch of players just add/kick whoever they did not agree with, or worse whoever hold a torch or hammer.

The right way to use this mod is for cross reference since players in pup servers tend to make bad decisions based on clueless accusation.