DLC should be stand-alone game

[chemie]

I mean, it literally requires choosing which game to play in the launcher but here are my reasons

1. Clarity: It is a stand-alone game.  Usually, DLC is an add-on (more maps, characters, technology etc) that builds on the base game.  This does not do that.  The game uses the same base game code and core mechanics but applies it to a different game format.  It is not a DLC in the traditional sense.  Obviously, they need to make sure people know it is not "Oni 2" (meaning bigger/better) but instead it is "Another take on Oni" or "Oni - a different spin".  Obviously, they would not call it that, maybe "Oni -Fractured Worlds".  They are just giving you the same base game map split into 5.

2. State of game:  What has been released feels more like what we saw in the testing branch during original ONI development.  Place holder graphics, incomplete game mechanics.  EA DLC is strange to me.  Why not a new game that happens to be EA, which Klei did well with "ONI 1 - The original".

3. Bundled: Why require people to own the base game?  Again, it does to add to the base game.  We have Game 1 and Game 2 so Game 2 should be a stand alone purchase,  Own one, own the other, or own both.  They actually increase their player base by doing this too.  Plus, if I was a new player, and decided "I should buy the game plus the DLC for that game", I would be pissed because it is really two separate, different, stand alone games.

4. Mods.  Mods are indefinitely turned off.  Klei suggests they "hope" to add MOD support but have not discussed the significant hurdles in doing this.  They will need a completely new and complex MOD loader to manage 2 games.  Each existing mod needs to be considered "Game 1 only".  Any new MODs need to declare themselves as Game 1, Game 2 or both.  (For example, would base game manage a sugar engine MOD without crashing?) Each time you load Game 1 or Game 2, it will need to re-launch and re-load the mods for that game.  Steam is not well setup to manage 2 different games MOD library within one game.  Make them stand alone and problem solved.

[babba]

[Khullag]

for every one person who says "dlc doesn't make sense, it should be a separate game", there will be 1000 people shouting "WAIT WAT THE SECOND GAME IS 95% COPY OF THE FIRST ONE. AND THEY DARE TO CHARGE FULL PRICE FOR IT???? CANCELLED!!!!"

[KonfigSys]

if they add bigger starting maps as an option (good old maps from vanilla game plus small asteroids) than it will be a great DLC but not a stand alone game as it is being seen. Also if they will return oil and hydrogen rockets to the late game scenario it will be old great game with a wonderful add-on.

Let's see which path they take.

They can make an excellent game with DLC just with two options: big map choice and additional old rockets (at least this one as I understand they intend to do). 

Or they leave it like that and it will be rightly called a second copy alternative game called fractured world.

[chemie]

48 minutes ago, Khullag said:

for every one person who says "dlc doesn't make sense, it should be a separate game", there will be 1000 people shouting "WAIT WAT THE SECOND GAME IS 95% COPY OF THE FIRST ONE. AND THEY DARE TO CHARGE FULL PRICE FOR IT???? CANCELLED!!!!"

except is is not full price and can easily be explained in the EA text.  Like I said, they need to say it is not ONI 2

[babba]

Need a time machine, so that its Summer 2021...Yawn. Need the big rockets in the dlc...Time machine !

If I hadn`t recently played 3000 cycles and installed a great steam rocket silo in survival base game, I would have just closed the Klei website again and would have returned in the middle 2021...Just like @aresd I bought the dlc standalone game to help Klei , with a current bad steam rating. Waiting again for sooooo long, yawn. At the beginning of the year I read about the (reactor) radioactivy update, that was one of the reasons to get excited in 2020 for me. In Summer 2021 I will have waited 1,5 years for the content update. Time machine...

[Kderosa]

It should more properly be called ONI We Fixed the Computational Pathfinding Problems By Breaking Up the Map And Adjusted the Rockets to Accommodate

The reality is that the game never left early access and is still being actively developed (the lack of a real late/end game is your first tip off). But in 2020 this is how small dev houses have to finance projects. I don’t mind actually because I enjoy playing the game even though it’s not a finished product yet. But that’s the reality. 

So, yes, you are spot on - it’s really not a true DLC. 

[JRup]

1 hour ago, chemie said:

1. Clarity: It is a stand-alone game.  Usually, DLC is an add-on

Pepperidge farms remembers the word expansion. Yuri shall have his revenge.

Now a little more seriously, my best guess as to why this lack of differentiation is this has to do with how steam handles all this "packaging" so as long as Klei makes it clear then I'm not complaining, much.

 

2 hours ago, chemie said:

2. State of game

Klei has emphasized quite well that this incarnation of the DLC is early access. (Again I scramble my head around how steam handles stuff...) Lots of things will change and it shows. Their feedback regarding the oxygen mask station happened because of our feedback and the thingmajig is being reworked (as well as other things, but not going OT that much atm).

 

2 hours ago, chemie said:

3. Bundled: Why require people to own the base game? 

Again, I'd like to point out the story with expansions. For many games this meant having to use the base game's engine and launch the extra content - from another CD, that you bought, in a store (shudders).

My best guess is that digital delivery allows them the luxury of sending out standalone versions of the game while the expansion is being ironed out during this early access phase. It's become a "minor" inconvenience to switch between versions of the game by downloading the main (stable) branch or the experimental (development) time and again. In my opinion, this ensures the minimal buggyness is to be found on stable while they work on the new content at the very least.

When the thing is all done then what they should do is pretty much have the base game "receive the add-on" at launch / and purchase of the expansion (old ways die hard and I won't apologize for hating on the term DLC).

 

2 hours ago, chemie said:

4. Mods. 

If what I suspect from point 3 is real then mods should eventually come. Buggyness is the key "word" to look out for.

 

7 minutes ago, babba said:

Need a time machine, so that its Summer 2021...Yawn. Need the big rockets in the dlc...Time machine !

If I hadn`t recently played 3000 cycles and installed a great steam rocket silo in survival base game

Just yesterday: I got off the side-project-lazyness, built a monument and sent Mae to the tear by cycle 3701. 2020 has proven to be a different year for all which counts: Expect many things to be delayed (this is the best and minimum outcome that will happen...)

 

6 minutes ago, Kderosa said:

But in 2020 this is how small dev houses have to finance projects. I don’t mind actually because I enjoy playing the game even though it’s not a finished product yet. But that’s the reality. 

So, yes, you are spot on - it’s really not a true DLC. 

The soundtrack is the DLC. (ok, I'll drag myself out.)

[babba]

The good and bad thing is, that we can design the game together with Klei in 2021 - Keep posting forum stuff

Once they have the big rockets back in the game(the dlc) + some updates till March 2021, then I will be cheerful again

Being realistic I probably have to wait till 2023 for another big major update, like giant meteors, the plague, multiplayer @cpy, monsters in space, fire, colony weather lightning, intergalatic-resource-trade-hub-stock-exchange or whatever. Good games mature like radioactive whisky

[blash365]

1. What are you talking about? The games share the same fundamental basis. Dupes work the same, bases work the same, elements work the same, literally everything works the same. The _only_ change to an existing game system is the space map. It is not reducing the feature, but replacing it with a fundamentally more promising one. Other than that we get: More elements, more buildings, more dupes, more mechanics, more overlays (more, more, more, exactly as you asked for).

What you are getting here is less of a DLC (which i believe you consider more of a Mission/Cosmetic pack), but rather the type of Addon that we used to have in video games and were fundamentally better, fairer and more fulfilling than money-grabbing DLCs (i am looking at you EArts!).

 

2. What difference does it make whether you are testing a DLC or a new game in EA? It seems you are a bit too much hold up on the wording.

 

3. If you release it as a stand-alone game, what would be the reason for buying the base game anymore? The DLC in its current state is already far superior to the base game (apart from missing resources). Imagine the EA stepping 2-3 months ahead. You will never look back!

So if it was a stand-alone game, it would also require a stand-alone price. Milking us - who own both games - for the basegame-price + x (let's call it ~12$), because - again - the DLC basically includes all of the base game features plus more.

This would be unbelievably unfair pricing policy for almost everybody apart from a small fraction of people, who want their game to be called game and their dlc to be called game as well (namely you). It would also create confusion for beginners on which game is the correct one. Check out Rise of a Solar Empire. I still have no idea which bundle, version, standalone addon of the game is indeed the "latest version" of it.

Further more, imagine there would be a second DLC in the future (sorry, klei, but i dare to dream). Which base game would it extend? Would we have 3 base games then? Or just 2 with 1 dlc for one of them? Or both?

 

4. Mods. Admittedly not my main priority. But i would imagine most mods to focus on the DLC version of the game eventually. But i would also expect klei to provide a modding framework to easily support compatibility. You can easily look at how other games do it. For example Cities: Skylines. That game has approx. 350.000 DLCs (unfortunately with a far less customer friendly pricing policy as klei has shown with this dlc). And for most mods, you can see a list in which DLCs are required for the mod to run and which DLCs or game versions might break it. Sure it is a tad more work for the modders. But they will also have more tools to fiddle around with. It is a bullet to take, to have a more potent un-modded game. And - as said before - most modders will focus on the DLC-Version anyway.

[SharraShimada]

For now, its a new game (type). Its easier for them to handle things for now, while not touching the base game.

I guess, they will introduce some parts (like radioactivity...) into the base game later too. When merged at some point later, the multi-asteroid thing may just be another kind of asteroid, we can choose from at start, like Arboria for example.

I made my share of experiences with KLEI and they where very positive when it comes to listening to the community on early access, and doing what they can. So i am confident, they will make a good combination in the end. The way they do the DLC-early access may be questionable, but when you are familiar with developing processes you understand why they´ve done it that way, and not implementing everything into the base game itself. 

As for now, the DLC is only for enthusiasts (or masochists...). Thats the only thing they missed to communicate the proper way. I will wait, test, and see how it progresses, and i dont mind the split of the game versions for now.

[Primalflower]

it's like saying that shipwrecked should be a seperate game to dont starve

[babba]

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1452490/Oxygen_Not_Included__Spaced_Out/#app_reviews_hash

[blash365]

1 hour ago, babba said:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1452490/Oxygen_Not_Included__Spaced_Out/#app_reviews_hash

There is literally is a button in the main menu to switch from new to original style...

[Sasza22]

1 hour ago, Lbphero said:

it's like saying that shipwrecked should be a seperate game to dont starve

I expected the dlc to be just like shipwrecked. Same basic mechanics but a different world. I think they should have just marketed it a bit more clear so it`s obvious that it`s a lot different while still being the same game. But unlike shipwrecked where it`s obvious you are in the tropics and everything works differently in ONI explaining that isn`t that easy. The best they could do was making an animation where the asteroid falls apart and dupes try to rebuild their bases while travelling between the parts.

[Kderosa]

2 hours ago, Lbphero said:

it's like saying that shipwrecked should be a seperate game to dont starve

I'd say it's more like Reign of Giants were they finished developing the base game and now both exist.  Pretty sure RoG was a DLC too.  

[Primalflower]

13 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

I expected the dlc to be just like shipwrecked. Same basic mechanics but a different world. I think they should have just marketed it a bit more clear so it`s obvious that it`s a lot different while still being the same game. But unlike shipwrecked where it`s obvious you are in the tropics and everything works differently in ONI explaining that isn`t that easy. The best they could do was making an animation where the asteroid falls apart and dupes try to rebuild their bases while travelling between the parts.

I go back and forth. To me, the concept of having to make rockets to sustain (pretty short, really) distances between asteroids paralles sorta neatly with the way shipwrecked separates most of its content between a barren ocean that you must traverse. 

But at the same time, the ONI DLC feels much like RoG, where these mechanics feel like they should've been this way all along, and the DLC is just what the game needs to feel, at least more, complete. and in that, I feel like the concept of the DLC being separate to the base game is very silly.

[Tanmorik]

7 hours ago, chemie said:

I mean, it literally requires choosing which game to play in the launcher but here are my reasons

1. Clarity: It is a stand-alone game.  Usually, DLC is an add-on (more maps, characters, technology etc) that builds on the base game.  This does not do that.  The game uses the same base game code and core mechanics but applies it to a different game format.  It is not a DLC in the traditional sense.  Obviously, they need to make sure people know it is not "Oni 2" (meaning bigger/better) but instead it is "Another take on Oni" or "Oni - a different spin".  Obviously, they would not call it that, maybe "Oni -Fractured Worlds".  They are just giving you the same base game map split into 5.

You forget about the fakt that the DLC Price is currently calculated as Base game + DLC. So you have to pay the work done in the Base game plus the work done and coming at the DLC. People are always complaining from the consumer side but forget about the fakt that indie developer such as Klei have to pay their bills. ONI is not a game with a high Price, in my opinion it is well balanced and obviously well calculated. 
I don't like the actual state of the DLC but i doubt that Klei would be lazy in the next year. 

So long Story short and in bad english, this is definitely a Download Content. Klei can't add content forever without getting paid further. I Like the fact that their don't abandoned the Game and adds new Content. 

About the mods, we all could just hope that the dlc wouldnt split the community because that would be sad if you can use isolated doors only in one of the both games

[Sebastiangperez]

I made a post few months ago talking what will be in the DLC and whats will be the free content and my conclusion was that the DLC must have only addons to the game like The Nuclear Stuff, because the game already has an space system, maybe they needed to be reworked, ditches the way that we have to make, for example, Hydrogen and Oxygen Liquid and make at least some building to make them and not make the DLC based on. 

The old space system didn't make any sense but i like the new one only that i will prefer sending some rockets without pilot, like the rover and same for payloads, maybe the rocket crashes on the planet and cant be recovered. also they told us that there were free content, but i didn't see them in the game.

 

 

 

[Yunru]

On 12/12/2020 at 3:18 PM, Kderosa said:

So, yes, you are spot on - it’s really not a true DLC. 

Odd. It's content, and it is downloaded.

It is most definitely a "true" DLC, because that is a very low threshold.

[babba]

5 minutes ago, Yunru said:

Odd. It's content, and it is downloaded.

It is most definitely a "true" DLC, because that is a very low threshold.

You are right. Basically visiting any website is a DLC.

I will use this phrase with some people "Give me your Smartphone, I want to participate in DLC...I need data !" I like that

Thank you for your DLC.

[cpy]

On 12/12/2020 at 4:30 PM, babba said:

multiplayer @cpy

NO! Just no! Bad babba! *grabs newspapers threateningly*

[Trego]

On 12/13/2020 at 8:33 AM, Yunru said:

Odd. It's content, and it is downloaded.

It is most definitely a "true" DLC, because that is a very low threshold.

technically a true, original DLC is copied onto a DVD and mailed to you.  Dvd Loaded Content.  Or put on a hard drive and carried to you by a European Swallow.  Disk Laden Content.  Or, someone just ships you their entire desktop tower via UPS.  Desktop Lorry Content.  This whole internet thing is new, unproven tech that renders us vulnerable to Cylons and would not be allowed on my battlestar.  Don't Let Cylons in.

 

[oosyrag]

It does seem strange to have a toggle to turn on and off the DLC, considering the format that base and DLC worlds/games are incompatible.

Seems like it would be less confusing to just specify which world/mode you want to create upon starting a new game, with the DLC option disabled if you don't own it. Hopefully we would be able to load either type of world without having to restart the game eventually.

And possibly a early access and mods not currently available disclaimer upon creation of a DLC world, because some people...

[babba]

I find that the map size change(s) would have made it worth while to sell both games as standalone versions,

as both version save-games ( basegame & dlc ) are not save game compatible and perhaps(probably?) never will be ?