Charlie and Them Lore [A Detailed Look at the Shadow Queen's past, her plans and the unfathomable Them]

[Scypham]

Last week I had a poll to determine which piece of the lore I would cover first and the most popular request was to cover Charlie and Them, and that's what we'll be doing today. We'll be covering what lead up to Charlie becoming the Shadow Queen and theories on her plans as well as who They are and Their significance to the story.

Charlie

The current antagonist of the story, Winona's sister, Maxwell's former assistant and the Shadow Queen herself, Charlie was first introduced as Maxwell's assistant for his magic shows back in the William Carter Puzzles. Unlike Maxwell, who likely had somewhat of an understanding that his 'shadow tricks' were real and potentially dangerous, Charlie was completely unaware of their nature as evidenced by her letters to Maxwell.
 

Spoiler

Hey Maxy,

We really knocked 'em dead last night, didn't we? I thought that old guy in the front wasn't going to make it. Those shadow things are so convincing - they almost scare me, and I'm part of the act!

We can work on the new finale when I get back from my sister's place. I'm looking forward to it!

~ Charlie ♥

Her and Maxwell appeared to have been on good terms prior to being dragged into the Constant, with Charlie even suggesting they can use her family cabin to take a break from the magic business for a while when she saw Maxwell's 'study room', where he would likely examine the Codex Umbra, and was concerned for his wellbeing. Maxwell also cared for her and is still implied to, with him protecting her from the shadows in the William Carter Puzzles and showing remorse for his actions in DST.
 

Spoiler

WAXWELLJOURNAL = "I'm so sorry, Charlie."

 

In The Final Act, we see Maxwell and Charlie performing for an audience, with Maxwell reaching into the Codex Umbra to grab the shadows to pull them out of the Umbra for their act. Ironically, Maxwell gets grabbed by Shadow Hands instead and after a brief struggle and relief from the Shadows, two large hands appear and grab both Maxwell and Charlie, thrashing them around before the video ends.

 

Spoiler

 

 What happens next? Well, we're not sure on the details. What we do know is that the end result is that Maxwell ends up on the Nightmare Throne and it persuades him to bring others into the Constant, and Charlie gets 'possessed' by the shadows and becomes the Night Creature that terrorizes the survivors when they're in complete darkness without any way of seeing their surroundings. It should be noted that while Charlie does 'share' her body with a shadowy force, she does appear to be able to control herself at times as seen in the A New Reign Cinematic.

It should be noted that while we can't pin down exactly when Winona's Cinematic takes place, given that Charlie appears in both her non-shadow and shadow forms rather than as the Queen we know her as now, and that the real Wagstaff (Don't Starve's Wagstaff being a projection of him instead) and Winona are transported into the constant, it's very likely that it takes place right before the ANR cinematic. Just wanted to clarify that she didn't intend to kidnap her sister. There are comments that are made from her that can be found in the files as well that confirms that she did not intend for that as well.

 

Spoiler

• Charlie announcement- "C-Charlie?"

  --...I'm so sorry, I never meant for you to come here.

Now, for ANR. For the cinematic there's quite alot to dissect. 

Spoiler

 

First off, Charlie appears and casually lets Wilson be unbound from the Nightmare Throne. This is something that's always caught my attention since Maxwell was on the Throne for who knows how long but he was bound to it and never received any form of help. This implies that Charlie held what happened to both of them against him and never tried to help him as a result. Another thing is that the Throne only allowed Maxwell to be freed when Wilson used the Divining Rod to 'unlock' him from it using the Nightmare Lock. Wilson being stuck on the Throne implies that it was then locked yet again to trap him. So Charlie being able to just unlock it with the tap of her finger without even touching the Lock was always very interesting to me, especially since the Throne is sort of an object of 'ultimate power' yet she can manipulate it.

Spoiler

Wagstaff - MAXWELLTHRONE: "I've found it! The portal that can link worlds! The throne of ultimate power!"

Side note: In hindsight, I should've probably included Wagstaff and The Throne in that poll I made. I'll get around to discussing both of those things eventually though.

Next, Charlie's shadow side attacks Wilson after he's been freed and seemingly tries to kill him. While you could write it up as her trying to torture/kill him, given that we see her doing something with the Ancient Gateway in the Forge trailer, it's also possible that she was sapping the power of the Throne from Wilson to make her its rightful owner or something similar. Once Wilson's been taken care of and the shadow side is done with him, she opens a portal back into the Constant to drop Wilson in. 

Next is what I'd say is the most interesting part of the trailer. Charlie reverts to her human half and looks confused and worried about Wilson's whereabouts but doesn't seem too concerned, as if she's used to her shadow half hurting others or people disappearing on her due to that half killing them. She proceeds to pick up the Throne after the explosion from her powers knocks it over and her shadow half redesigns the Throne room to be very dark and menacing in design. Her human half however, has other ideas on how the Throne room should be designed and gives it a much more grand appearance with white ceramics. The two sides fight over how the Throne room looks (with human Charlie's magic being represented by white and shadow Charlie's being represented by black) until eventually there's a blast of red magic that transforms the Throne room once more, this time with the throne room comprising of various whites, blacks and greys as well as roses. This implies that after a brief internal conflict, the two sides 'fused' or reached a balance/compromise (compromises in my uncompromising game smh). This fusion is the Shadow Queen we know now, her magic being symbolised by red in the cinematic (which was also the colour used for when she took the power from Wilson, potentially implying both sides of her wanted the throne at that point) and her being associated with roses elsewhere.

Why she suffered this fate whereas Maxwell was bound to the Throne is unknown. It should be noted that Maxwell and Charlie's fates seem to parallel that of the two Ancient rulers in the Metheus murals. One (the staff wielder) abused the fuel for their own purposes while their assistant (the torch bearer) kept them in check, eventually things get out of control and the 'king' is left alone on the throne while the 'queen' is taken by the shadows. Klei obviously wanted to do this but trying to reason why ingame is something I can't do with the current information sadly. It could be that Maxwell stopping the shadows from taking Charlie had upset them and they decided to fuse with her instead due to Maxwell's disrespect. Who can say really.

Now as for what her plans are now, who can say for certain. We see her influence ingame as she finishes off the Ancient Fuelweaver in the Atrium, leaving behind the fossil but seemingly taking the Fuelweaver himself since the Shadow Atrium is lost and he gets sucked into a portal of sorts. We then see her at the Ancient Gateway after it's been activated when the survivors go into the Forge, either taking some of its power, seeing where the survivors ended up, trying to understand its power, or it could be that she was trying to reach out to something in particular (since the Gateway likely doesn't just lead into the Forge since Wortox says that's where he came from and the Metheus Murals showing that the Ancients used it to further use nightmare fuel). That thing, being Them.

Them

Throughout DS/T's lifespan we've constantly heard of Them from Maxwell, Battlemaster Pugna and the Ancient Fuelweaver. Who they are is a question that's been asked fairly often, with RoT there's been theories that even the Moon can be some form of Them. Based on the information we have, They are an unknowable force that seems to have been the source of all nightmare fuel and has destroyed the lives of both the Ancients and the denizens of the Forge (and quite possibly more we don't know of) after they both depended on Their power for their civilisations to thrive.

With respect to the Ancients, the Fuelweaver's dialogue implies that he is indeed the spirit of one of the Ancients, potentially even the King. His dialogue also implies that he's trying to 'save' us from a much worse fate that awaits us if we continue down this path the survivors follow and says that They are coming and it's inevitable, that Charlie is not Them (when she grabs him at the end) and curses Their name which implies that they hold a grudge against Them. Because of all this, we can infer that the shadows we know of are not an extension of Them like how Gestalts are extensions of the Moon Entity, that whoever They are are not in the Constant the survivors reside in, that Charlie even when corrupted isn't actually controlled by 'Them' and that They had a big part to play in the Ancient's history, likely being what brought their civilisation to ruin. Another thing to note is that when being taken, the Fuelweaver remarks that someone is easily deceived. Whether this someone is us being deceived by Charlie as she uses us for her plans or Charlie being deceived by Them is unknown.

 

Spoiler

Battlecry: 

• They are coming. It cannot be stopped.
• They are unfathomable.
  
  Deathcry: 
   
• You are not Them...
• Are you so easily deceived? Ha...
  
  Turning off the Ancient Gateway:
   
• Curse Their name!

With respect to Pugna, he constantly brings up the Throne and Them, saying that the denizens of the Forge were 'severed' from the Throne and had no 'staff' to provide. That They destroy all that They touch and that his plan is to use the Gateway to destroy the Throne. For what 'staff' refers to, in the Metheus Murals we see that one of the two main Ancients wields a staff (which the Ancient Cane skin is based off of) and in the second mural we can see in the top of the mural he performs several tasks such as reanimating a fossil (the Fuelweaver's fossil), creating tools, growing crops, etc. This could imply that there are staffs that one can use to use Their power to improve the quality of life for a civilisation and that there was no staff that was given to Pugna to provide for his people, and that they were trapped in the Forge by the Throne/Them. Furthermore, They destroying all that They touch further supports that the entity in the Gateway that killed the Ancients were indeed Them.
 

Spoiler

Pugna's Quotes: 

• "... Do you understand the forces you serve?"
• "We were severed from the Throne!"
• "Trapped in a realm of stone and fire, with no scepter to provide."
• "Why serve a power that deserted my people?"
• "They destroy all They touch..."
• "That is why we cannot let you win."
   
• "Know this, Gatekeepers:"
• "Once you are dead, we will activate the Gateway."
• "We'll return to the hub and destroy the Throne."
• "We will end this all, once and for all."
  
  Them:
  
  
  The Staff and it's powers:
  
  

Maxwell's quotes state that They are in the Throne Room as well. Saying They might have gotten tired of him, that They showed him terrible, beautiful things, that They just watch him, and that when he first got to the Throne Room there was nothing but dust, the void and Them. This implies most things in the Throne Room are Maxwell's creations, though since we know that Pugna is aware of the Throne and Maxwell's quote implies he doesn't know what he's talking about with respect to his reasoning and plans but doesn't comment on knowing him prior, it's likely that the Throne existed before Maxwell got to the Throne room and either They brought it there for Maxwell to be bound to or the Throne is the embodiment of Them or an extension of Them. It's noteworthy that Maxwell is most likely referring to Pugna's plans to destroy the Throne when he says Pugna's deluded and not Pugna stating that They abandoned his people.

 

Spoiler

Maxwell's Throne room quotes:
 

1. "You've been an interesting plaything, but I've grown tired of this game."
2. "Or maybe They've grown tired of me."
    
3. "They'll show you terrible, beautiful things."
4. "It's best not to fight it."
5. There wasn't much here when I showed up."
6. "Just dust. And the Void. And Them."
    
7. "I don't know what they want. They... they just watch."

So, why aren't They here? How are They returning? And what's Charlie's plan which most certainly involves Them?

Well, to answer that we need to look at the Metheus Murals once more. Specifically the first and last images.
 

Spoiler

As we can see, the Gateway's appearance changes in every single mural (the second and third have previous been used in the post if you would like to see them). What's important is that the first version has a very symmetrical and complete design, lined with black and white energy. The final design shows the black energy is out of control and there's next to no white in the mural. Now of course black and white doesn't have to specifically be Shadow and Lunar magic alone, but for the first Gateway's design it can be a safe assumption (especially since we know the Ancients once worshipped the Moon) to make that the Gateway was powered by both Lunar and Shadow magic when it was activated. As the murals progress, we also see less and less of this white energy/Lunar magic being used in the Gateway. This could have lead to Their power being out of control and Them emerging from the Gateway, killing off the Ancients except for one of the rulers, who the second ruler had defended with what appears to be Lunar magic. What could have lead to the Gateway being destroyed could be that Lunar and Shadow magic are both required to make a stable rift in space for the Gateway, and the lack of Lunar magic lead it to destabilise and partially destroy itself. We know Lunar and Shadow magic combined can be used to mess with reality itself too.

The Celestial Portal and Moon Rock Idol both use moon rocks and a purple gem and are involved with carrying our survivor into a separate instance of the Constant and bringing another survivor into our instance. This, alongside Walter's Slowdown Ammo which uses the same materials, are the only instances of both Lunar and Shadow materials being used to construct something (if I'm forgetting something please inform me in the comments) and they both involve warping reality/space. This provides evidence to my theory that Shadow magic isn't sustainable on its own for the Gateway, which could also be why the Gateway destabilises after the fight with the Fuelweaver (it only destabilising after he leaves could simply represent that it can only sustain itself for a short amount of time using Shadow magic and that time is represented by how long it takes us to fight the Fuelweaver).

So, with this information, and that Charlie achieved a 'balance' of both her Light (human) and Dark (shadow) selves, she could be trying to repair the Gateway and use a balance of both Lunar and Shadow magic (similar to her two sides achieving balance and the first version of the Gateway) in order to bring Them back through a stabilised portal. 

What her plan is after bringing back Them however, is beyond me. And anytime I try to guess, Klei just adds new lore that throws any theories I had out the window. Personally, I would prefer that Charlie remains the main antagonist given the years of build-up we've had with her. While the same can be said for Them, having Charlie's grand plan being to be the assistant for some other entity that uses shadow magic again just doesn't sit well with me. It's possible she's trying to obtain the power of both Them and the Moon Entity, however considering the power they've both showcased, I'm at a loss as to how she can possibly do that. Since the Ancients kept Their power in check for a while, it's possible she can use both magic to keep the portal in check so They can't be unleashed as they once were when they killed the Ancients, and she can then use Their power to increase her own. But, why would she? Again, not sure. It's important to note that the ANR cinematic does imply that she's not on the side of the survivors or the side of Them, she's on a side of her own. And what that means for her plans is something that only Klei knows at this point.

As of now if I had to guess what's next, the survivors are likely going to obtain a source of Lunar magic in either the next update or the one after that that Charlie can then use as a source to stabilise the Gateway. Whether that be from the Moon itself somehow (the teaser name 'Fee Fi Fo Thumb' implies a beanstalk so something from the Moon itself is only improbable due to technical limitations) or from whatever we grow in the next update (again, update name implies a beanstalk or some sort of plant) or something else entirely, I'm not sure. Something to note is that the Celestial Orb has been called the 'moonrockseed' for the longest time in the code so it's likely that whatever we grow is going to have to use the Celestial Orb somehow.

Before I finish, I didn't really touch on how the Ancients started using Their magic and the fuel. To summarise: after they worshipped the Moon (why they stopped is something we don't know but it's implied they willingly stopped rather than the Moon just cutting off their power. This is implied due to the buried Celestial Sanctum which is specifically found with an Archives tool and the fact they still used Lunar magic for the Gateway) they were on the verge of their civilisation dying out until something happened which caused a 'dark wave' to pass over their city, causing them to molt and attain stronger bodies and then begin to abuse the fuel. From the 'dying out' portion of this paragraph onwards, we can use the Ancient Murals as reference.
 

Spoiler

Ancient Murals:
1. Wilson: "It depicts an old civilisation. The people look hungry and scared."
    Wendy: "A people struck by famine and sorrow."
    Maxwell: "A picture of the city, before the fuel."

2. Wilson: "This tablet is too worn to make out."
    Wickerbottom: "This mural panel is too eroded to decipher."
    Maxwell: "We all know what happens next."

3. Wilson: "Something dark creeps over the city and its people."
    Wickerbottom: "A dark shadow, or perhaps a substance, overtakes the civilisation."
    Walter: "There's....a shadow? Or something....they took some artistic liberties."

4. Wilson: "The people are shedding their skins. They look different underneath."
    Wickerbottom: "The citizens molt from their exoskeletons in this panel."
    Webber: "A picture of bug people escaping their bug outsides!" 

5. Wilson: "It shows a massive technologically advanced city."
    Wickerbottom: "The city appears exponentially more prosperous."
    Winona: "A picture of a beautiful, well engineered city."

And with that, that concludes my post on Charlie, her plans and Them. To anyone to stuck around to read the whole thing or to anyone who even read part of this, I greatly appreciate your time and to the people who read my Forgotten Knowledge lore post I thank you for encouraging me to continue writing up on Don't Starve's lore. I hope this post was as enjoyable as the last. I do understand it was super long once again though and I apologise for that, there's just alot to cover with Charlie and Them, especially since one or both are likely to be the main antagonists of the series.

The poll asked for me to cover Character Backstories next but given the amount of lore that would be in total (even if some barely have lore) I might hold off on that to cover something else or split that into two posts. We'll see. Until then, take care! 

[Notecja]

1 hour ago, Scypham said:

it's also possible that she was sapping the power of the Throne from Wilson to make her its rightful owner

That's why Wilson despite sitting on shadow throne NEVER changed nor possessed any powers, and never will get refresh XD

[mathem99]

1 hour ago, Scypham said:

What could have lead to the Gateway being destroyed could be that Lunar and Shadow magic are both required to make a stable rift in space for the Gateway, and the lack of Lunar magic lead it to destabilise and partially destroy itself. We know Lunar and Shadow magic combined can be used to mess with reality itself too.

Could this potentially also explain why the Sealed Portal we encounter in the Ancient Archive is inactive even after the Archive has been activated with all three Opal Gems in place? There is no nightmare fuel present to power it, that's why it's always inactive. Or did I understand wrong?

Spoiler

The Sealed Portal the Player encounters in the Ancient Archive:

 

[sinisterrkid]

The whole question of why does Charlie want Them to return is likely to have a disappointing answer, especially with so little background context for her possible reasons.

That is, the current context for any of Charlie's motivation would be:

• Some possible revenge on Maxwell, or,
• Wanting to return to Earth, or,
• Wanting more power over the Constant.

Any other motivation would pretty much come out of nowhere and those above don't seem the most intriguing. So I'm not creating expactations for any big reveal in that part of the lore.

Except.... I think it would be really cool if her motivation is getting everyone back to Earth. You would have to reconcile that with her trying to kill everyone at night, lol. But since in my head-cannon there are separate parts of Charlie walking about the Constant (see Stagehand), as well as her conflicting sides, the way I would resolve that would be the human side of her tricking her shadow-self to help her invest in Lunar stonks, tricking it into thinking that it's all for power, when in the end her human self has been planning all along to overtake the nightmare fuel influence and bring everyone safely home. And the Night-Charlie is something of the same nature of Maxwell's shadow minions, only much more powerful.

That narrative would be hard to pull off, and as @Scypham expressed themself, some people would actually prefer Charlie continuing the villain role.

But in a way, it would be a great character arc for Charlie herself, who in the beginning seemed to be the sweetest of people.

[Scypham]

3 hours ago, mathem99 said:

Could this potentially also explain why the Sealed Portal we encounter in the Ancient Archive is inactive even after the Archive has been activated with all three Opal Gems in place? There is no nightmare fuel present to power it, that's why it's always inactive. Or did I understand wrong?

  Reveal hidden contents

The Sealed Portal the Player encounters in the Ancient Archive:

 

Oh you could be onto something, I hadn't considered that for the Sealed Portal. Though, it's very similar in design to both the Forge and Gorge portals (which Wicker points out) and both of those required something in order to activate them (the Forge required either side of the Forge's arena to win in combat from what I recall, though I can't double check at the moment so don't quote me on that, and the Gorge required favors to power a key to activate it) so while it could be the lack of fuel, it's likely that it has an activation requirement outside of the Lunar magic that's powering it as well.

[-Variant]

Sky nautilus... what does it mean!?

 

No but seriously, absolutely fantastical job here, you saw what I said in DMs but its super nice having a new Lorekeeper to keep everyone updated! Wonderfully written and with their sources too! Room to improve as always with any human project though I think it does its job just fine.
Keep it up, excited to see the rest!

[Hornete]

1 minute ago, -Variant said:

Lorekeeper

Can we make that Scyphams rank? The Lorekeeper, Klei moderators/admins reading this get on it!

[Articestone]

Here is my random opinion of nightmares and moon 

The nightmares might make people irrational/insane , corrupt them and make them more cruel and send its minions to go after their lifes while

lunar makes people more rational/sane which makes gelsats target them. Gelsats seems to show the desires to the character which made them accept them. Being more rational/sane they accept the temptations and their goals they see from gelsats meaning they accept it without any principles and morals they had before. Which would explain why the mobs there are stronger but they are twisted like pengulls are basically crystalised corpse, lunar lobster, carrats and salamander as they don't want to be eaten, crystalised spiders as people always hit them at a short range so they accept mutation and gain long range attack. 

So if Charlie is at both sides makes me wonder if she had been at the moon, accepted mutations to achieve her goals and came down to be nightmarised to form a balance and afterwards take away they power maxwell have but not freeing him. Remember the shadow watcher, what if he does not just watch but evaluate people that can give Them an opportunity to escape, people who have morals and what not while Charlie made a deal with him and get rid of those people who don't make the requirement in exchange as they have been people living in the Constant but all that is left is graves and i don't think maxwell kill all of them. Although shadow creatures and Charlie still came after the survivors, it nightmare be the rules/laws of nature of the Constant or to keep them in check, make them thinks if things they can do to escape rather then continue living in the constant and survive, not let them think they are being protected /farmed for the sake of Them,however if they die they were not worth being protected and farm in the first place. 

[GelatinousCube]

Loving these Lore posts, keep them coming please!

[minespatch]

4 hours ago, -Variant said:

Sky nautilus... what does it mean!?

[Articestone]

5 hours ago, -Variant said:

Sky nautilus... what does it mean!?

Possible future mob or npc? 

Like a travelling merchent/quest giver that lives on the Sky nautilus or ride there from them world of Giants, glommer and whatnots? 

I don't like the fact that the Sky nautilus is travelling with the birds tho. 

As woodie says, don't trust those birds. 

[Scypham]

14 hours ago, -Variant said:

Sky nautilus... what does it mean!?

These things plague meeeee, they're in every mural and have a consistent design so I'm positive they're something we haven't seen yet but what it could be is beyond me. You see alot of em with black tentacles in the other murals so whatever they are, I get the feeling they were used in channeling the fuel. 

[TheDoughboy1917]

I have a hunch that Charlie doesn't fully understand what she's doing, it seems like she's playing a very dangerous game by messing with all this stuff. I think we're leading to a point where They are ultimately going to step out from behind the curtain and take stage as the true main antagonists, which I've been expecting for a while now. Then again, what do I know.

Anyway fantastic lore keeping there friend! It's so fun to see you pick apart all this stuff!

[Pop Guy]

3 hours ago, TheDoughboy1917 said:

I have a hunch that Charlie doesn't fully understand what she's doing, it seems like she's playing a very dangerous game by messing with all this stuff. I think we're leading to a point where They are ultimately going to step out from behind the curtain and take stage as the true main antagonists, which I've been expecting for a while now. Then again, what do I know.

Anyway fantastic lore keeping there friend! It's so fun to see you pick apart all this stuff!

I don't think THEM will ever get out from behind the scenes: we ignore their nature; they are beings different from those we understand, the result of a biology (?) completely alien to us. Maybe they can't live "this side" just as we can't live "where THEM is".
Certainly THEM were already ancient when the society of the ancients was born, and in all likelihood they will still be there when Charlie and all her creations are returned to dust.

[TheDoughboy1917]

1 hour ago, Pop Guy said:

I don't think THEM will ever get out from behind the scenes: we ignore their nature; they are beings different from those we understand, the result of a biology (?) completely alien to us. Maybe they can't live "this side" just as we can't live "where THEM is".
Certainly THEM were already ancient when the society of the ancients was born, and in all likelihood they will still be there when Charlie and all her creations are returned to dust.

Well surely there is someway the can come to The Constant, They are supposed to be returning after all.

[CaRat]

I kinda assumed them was the moon and the powers of the moon and I dont think that charlie (or the shadows in general) want them to return considering the fact you see shadows and gasalts fighting. As well as the moon produces alot of light and only makes new creatures of of dead ones. (Mayhaps shadows lose control on dead creatures of the constant). Or something along those lines.

Well that's at least what I think;>

 

 

[Scypham]

1 hour ago, Webber is bes said:

I kinda assumed them was the moon and the powers of the moon and I dont think that charlie (or the shadows in general) want them to return considering the fact you see shadows and gasalts fighting. As well as the moon produces alot of light and only makes new creatures of of dead ones. (Mayhaps shadows lose control on dead creatures of the constant). Or something along those lines.

Well that's at least what I think;>

 

 

Maxwell's quote for the Ancient Moon Statue ("How did I not know of this place? Did They know?") sort of rules out the moon out, along with other factors. I doubt the moon was just unaware of an entire civilisation that worshipped it. The Ancients were underground sure but they would've had to conduct worship above ground to obtain its power in ways such as the moon stone to get iridescent gems. Given the Ancients cursing Their name, Pugna constantly referring to the Throne and Them and the Throne is associated with shadow magic, it's much more likely for Them to be the source of the fuel and the being beyond the Gateway and that the moon is a second of two evils and opposes Them since their magic is clearly conflicting with one another. I have considered this possibility before though when RoT came out last year and I believed it until this year where the evidence to support this vs Them being the shadows and Them not being both was significantly less. I've been trying to find any evidence that could potentially support that They're two sides of the same coin and are thus the creature beyond the Gateway and the Moon since there's a theme of balance with both Charlie and the Gateway but for now I just don't have enough to make the claim with confidence.

 

19 hours ago, TheDoughboy1917 said:

I have a hunch that Charlie doesn't fully understand what she's doing, it seems like she's playing a very dangerous game by messing with all this stuff. I think we're leading to a point where They are ultimately going to step out from behind the curtain and take stage as the true main antagonists, which I've been expecting for a while now. Then again, what do I know.

Anyway fantastic lore keeping there friend! It's so fun to see you pick apart all this stuff!

Thank you! I'm still considering what I could tackle today since I want to do this every Thursday and I've been rummaging through Voxola, Wagstaff and a weeee bit of Maxwell lore as a result. As for Charlie not fully understanding what she's doing, that could quite possibly be the case. I did consider that in this post, though I'm not fond of the idea since she's been built up alongside Them as a major threat and her just being cast aside the instant her plans come to fruition would be rather anti-climatic for her whole arc, unless Klei manages to somehow do that tastefully. While I was thinking about what lore to cover today, it occured to me that if the Throne has a connection to Them and Charlie was able to get it to release Wilson, it's likely she could have a connection with Them somehow since we still don't know what went on when her and Maxwell entered the Constant. I have some ideas I want to share soon though on that. 

 

15 hours ago, Pop Guy said:

I don't think THEM will ever get out from behind the scenes: we ignore their nature; they are beings different from those we understand, the result of a biology (?) completely alien to us. Maybe they can't live "this side" just as we can't live "where THEM is".
Certainly THEM were already ancient when the society of the ancients was born, and in all likelihood they will still be there when Charlie and all her creations are returned to dust.

It's certainly a possibility that Charlie seeks to control Their power and thus They could just be a behind the scenes source for her/an influence on her. There's quite a few ways Klei can spin this. This is the most likely scenario to me since if They came out of the Gateway, They'd almost surely kill off the survivors and possibly Charlie in my eyes. They destroyed the Ancients and betrayed the denizens of the Forge, if They're released it's very hard to consider a scenario where They just, let the survivors live. So I can definitely see Them not being a force we ever fight directly unless it's like we push Them back through the Gateway or something like that. We'll likely never know Their true form but we will see Them partially me thinks through the Gateway. A behind the scenes unknowable force is something that's common with these sort of 'cosmic horror'-esque villains.