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Should Twitch really have separate categories for DS & DST?


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i bring up wraps in particular because exemplify the problem in a tidy way. they are very important to players who manage large inventories and players who do not base for most of their playtime. for someone who is on ds wraps are easy to get and reasonable to make and so are a viable strategy for play while on dst they require a notable level of skill and aggression to acquire and on pubs and social servers a level of selfishness as well meaning there is a decided difference in playing with 23 slots and 92 that goes beyond just the time it takes to get them. if a game encourages different ways of addressing problems and finding solutions then it doesn't matter that two games are both asking the same question. they aren't going to look for the same solution and they are going to pull in different types of problem-solvers, in effect the games are different in the way that they feel regardless of their aesthetic trappings

 

adding on top of that if searching for ds material that is mixed in with dst is even half as obnoxious as doing it on youtube then it would be imperative to keep them separate. it is super awful to do on youtube and that is currently how i have to find streams on twitch. i get really tired of finding oodles of un-tagged or poorly-tagged dst videos when i am looking for ds ones and often i give up on whatever i am looking for because it isn't worth the effort

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I am for the merged category. As @Misuto briefly mentioned, there are streamers who stream DS under the DST category who have also streamed DS under the DS category.

The result that’s apparent to the streamer is that the difference between viewership between DS and DST isn’t because of the differences between the two games, but because of the twitch category. Streaming DS under the DST category results in higher viewership while streaming DS under the DS category just doesn’t produce the same viewership, even though the main difference on the streamer’s part is which category they placed the game under. You are hearing this from streamers in this thread itself.

It just seems to be that the Don’t Starve Together category is where the majority of people congregate for DS/T content on the Twitch platform; people will consume DS & DST content all the same, it’s just that the category system on twitch creates this weird divide in viewership. Efforts I’ve seen from streamers overtime trying to correctly stream DS under its DS category just can’t seem to overcome this as well.

The merger of the categories will just bring overall benefits to both DS and DST for reasons @JazzyGames, @AllFunNGamez, & @Misuto and others have already mentioned as well as seeing a minimal loss to the DS category, as it barely gets viewership in the first place.

If the concern is a confusion on what game is what, it does not mean that there are no solutions that couldn’t be implemented to address this concern either. In fact, twitch actually has a tag called “Multiplayer”, so implementing and using a tag labeled “Singleplayer” shouldn’t be too difficult, right? An idea on my part could also be relabeling the category to “Don’t Starve / Together”, where the slash (/) would imply both Don’t Starve and Don’t Starve Together & the use of the “Multiplayer” vs “Singleplayer” tags would help differentiate which one the streamer is playing, no?

I say that this is something that is worth exploring and honestly wouldn’t hurt to try!!! :D

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In my opinion, DS can only benefit of being under one category on twitch because the more viewers a category has the higher ranked it is and more new people will find it. There's really no reason to split it, especially since most people watch the streams for drops which you can get from both categories.

Overall the goal should be to introduce the game to wider audience, this game has surprised me with how die-hard fans it has while not being as popular as i think it deserves to be.

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19 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

In fact, twitch actually has a tag called “Multiplayer”, so implementing and using a tag labeled “Singleplayer” shouldn’t be too difficult, right? An idea on my part could also be relabeling the category to “Don’t Starve / Together”, where the slash (/) would imply both Don’t Starve and Don’t Starve Together & the use of the “Multiplayer” vs “Singleplayer” tags would help differentiate which one the streamer is playing, no?

I wouldn't necessarily want it to be "Singleplayer" and "Multiplayer," as that mislabels the two games as if they're the same but with different numbers of player slots. I'd prefer something more like Fortnite, which has the tags "Mode: Save the World" and "Mode: Battle Royale." In the case of of a Don't Starve / Together category, I'd say the best tags would simply be "Don't Starve" and "Don't Starve Together."

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There is a reason why DS category has few streamers and few viewers. Klei hasn't had any new content for Vanilla DS or ROG in ages. They have abandoned these games. The new content in Hamlet isn't fun to watch or play in my opinion. I follow a small DST streamer, sometimes they play Shipwrecked and I don't mind watching --- I won't watch if they play Hamlet though. But people have to understand why people don't like watching DS content, it's not updated and it's not good. If you like Hamlet or playing Vanilla DS, ROG or Shipwrecked, please do so. Be brave, be a leader and not a sheep scared to play in a category with low views. You have tons of followers who will click your name to see if that game is worthy of watching. Be the change you want to see. Don't be a slave to viewership. There are plenty of games I hate watching but I find that the streamer has a great personality. I watch them, I support them and donate asking them to try other games. At the end of the day, they choose the games they want to play. I highly doubt they have trouble finding you, it's more that Vanilla, ROG and shipwrecked have no new content and a lot of people do not like the Hamlet content. I follow many of the streamers posting in this thread, if they played hamlet, I wouldn't watch. Don't blame the categories, its the content.

I have played ROG a ton but haven't gone back in a few years because there is no new content. Once you have 1-2k days with no new content, it gets boring. Which is why I've been playing DST and enjoy watching DST new content which Klei does update. I don't like watching hamlet because I don't play it or like it's content. If the streamers who posted all streamed hamlet in the DST category within the rules, they would still lose viewership too. Most people don't like Hamlet. Just like most of them wouldn't want to watch stale DS content either. People watch DST because there is new content and people play it so they want to see what is being done by other players in the form of tips and tricks used. It's also hard to watch streamers with tons of mods that seem cheaty. People can't relate as they do not want to use those mods. Streamers with 64 slots and can create gears from plain items due to mods, not fun. I usually play on my friends small server or I play solo dst. Sometimes I'll play with a small streamer that plays with their viewers. There is no reason for me to watch Hamlet, ROG or Shipwrecked as I do not play those anymore. You have to understand why people don't go into the Don't Starve category in the first place to understand the situation.

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18 minutes ago, Ispin69 said:

There is a reason why DS category has few streamers and few viewers. Klei hasn't had any new content for Vanilla DS or ROG in ages. They have abandoned these games. The new content in Hamlet isn't fun to watch or play in my opinion.

Even when DS was actively being updated when Hamlet first hit early access, the category was still maybe a dozen streamers  during peak times. Hamlet being fun to watch is a different story & I don't think most people think its boring.

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As someone who recently started streaming DST as well. I found myself wanting to stream singleplayer, Hamlet & SW plenty of times. I have also been asked plenty of times by my viewers why I don't stream Hamlet or SW some time. But honestly, it feels like you are severely crippling yourself as a streamer if you do stream DS over DST for how there is basically 0 viewership to be gained. 

I wholeheartedly agree with what Jazzy & Misuto said and I am very much in favour of merging the DS & DST categories. It is a topic that is dear to my heart and I really want to commend Jazzy for bringing this to everyones attention here! SW & Hamlet are such unique and rich experiences and I think Klei, the games & the community as a whole could benefit greatly from the newly gained exposure of those wonderful single player experiences.

EDIT: *spelling exposure

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Combining the two games into one category would only benefit the STREAMERS who are obviously out to get more views so they can make more profit off of other people watching you stream.

This does not however actually in any way  help VIEWERS who are there to see the game you are streaming and not just you. 

(because let’s just be 100% honest here.... if they were there to watch YOU, You could be playing Mary-Kate & Ashley’s Sweet 16 on your original Playstation console and they would still watch because they are there to watch you.. not the game)

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1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Combining the two games into one category would only benefit the STREAMERS who are obviously out to get more views so they can make more profit off of other people watching you stream.

This does not however actually in any way  help VIEWERS who are there to see the game you are streaming and not just you. 

(because let’s just be 100% honest here.... if they were there to watch YOU, You could be playing Mary-Kate & Ashley’s Sweet 16 on your original Playstation console and they would still watch because they are there to watch you.. not the game)

Dude, why are you like this.

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21 minutes ago, 1bubbainpa said:

Dude, why are you like this.

Because he's here for attention, and people keep giving it to him.

Also-

20 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

But I’m really getting tired of children defending DST as being a hard game when it’s not

You realize you've been crying for boss hp/DMG sliders for months now right?

I know you do, i'm just getting the obligatory "you're contradicting yourself again" post out of the way (it really needs to happen more often).

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1 hour ago, zee_dragon said:

Don't be rude.

I see nothing rude in his statement really. He might be often wrong and contradicting himself in a lot of posts, yes, but not here it seems. DS and DST are very-much 2 separate games with quite different mechanics. They have a majority of elements in common indeed, but still 2 separate games with sufficient distinct functions/re-balance/mobs etc, as stated, to differentiate them well. Yet seems some people - streamers - want them lump together because of convenience - for them. I for one if looking into DST streams because am hypothetically interested in DST, would find it bothersome to have and addition of 1/4-1/3-1/2-a.s.o. DS streams that I need to navigate through or use additional tags just because of a minority's convenience actually tied to personal choice and theoretic monetary profits. This as a principle, because I for one don't really care about Twitch and just "leech" skins with tab in bg (and probably wouldn't be bothered at all if both DS and DST streams drop skins anyway, as it appears to be the case).

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i wish i know the ignore page before...

 

 

about the topic. I think dont starve and together are a "small" game in comparation of others. Mixing them together can make it more important on twich. If the streams describes in the title what game are they playing the only issue is to scroll until you notice one. There is not so much streamers anyways

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49 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

I for one if looking into DST streams because am hypothetically interested in DST, would find it bothersome to have and addition of 1/4-1/3-1/2-a.s.o. DS streams that I need to navigate through or use additional tags just because of a minority's convenience actually tied to personal choice and theoretic monetary profits. This as a principle, because I for one don't really care about Twitch and just "leech" skins with tab in bg.

Please go back and read @Sunset Skye's original response to get a sense of the actual reality of two Don't Starve categories on Twitch. We can speak hypothetically or we can listen to the streamers and viewers who interact with this platform every day. We can talk about how different the two games are or we can talk about the best ways to get new players interested in the game.

I'm also a bit confused as to how this has suddenly become a big profit drive on behalf of the streamers. If we wanted to make as much money streaming Don't Starve as possible we'd just play DST all the time because it is the more popular game. My desire to stream a less-populated category comes out of sheer love for the game, a desire to give my followers and subscribers the content for which they ask, and the hope that I can introduce Don't Starve to a wider audience who might never have seen it in action.

This would benefit the developers because more players would be exposed to both versions, it would benefit the viewers who now have a larger group of streamers showcasing the entire catalog of the Don't Starve experience on one consolidated category, and yes, it would benefit streamers who would not have to make the painstaking choice between a populated category and a barren one.

Also just wanted to say that I do appreciate everyone taking the time to respond, even those who have no stake in the outcome! I hope that I can really drive home the bottom line here, which is that Don't Starve is one of the greatest games ever made and deserves so much more attention than its Twitch category has ever received.

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People that don't use twitch and are responding that "they are different games" and "people who want DS will go to the DS catagory don't understand the fundamental problem that actual streamers and viewers are trying to point out. 

 

1596604694_searchasofnow.png.e423e9906410a150fd0eddc471f415cf.png

 

At the time of this comment, I just went to Twitch and searched "dont starve," because I want to watch Don't Starve content. It does not even show that the Don't Starve category even exists, it simply links to DST. 

Now if I manually type in the address bar the link that I know goes directly to the Don't Starve category, we can actually find the category not only still exists, but people are streaming to it right now, yet for some reason it doesn't even show up in the search. No one can find DS content on Twitch. 

142449251_catasofnow.thumb.png.a28fac5dff983075ee28ccbaa8c592ef.png

 

This has in turn lead to the situation where viewers watch DST because it's all that they can find and streamers play DST because it's the only way to be found. 

 

As mentioned earlier, there is precedence for a merger of the two games. The sub reddit decided to keep DST and DS linked despite game differences as fracturing the community was bad for everyone. It's had tags for the two versions and has functioned perfectly with this decision to merge content for years. 

 

As an aside, as both a streamer and viewer, a merged category wouldn't be any different than how it is now in regards to confusion. The average viewer doesn't know most of the differences between the game, they look almost identical so many casual players assume they just must be the same. I can't count the number of times per stream that I have to specify something only works in DST (such as double hit nightmare kiting), or how character balance for DS is radically different than DST, or how cave basing is great in DST but the worst thing ever in DS. The list could just go on and on. What I'm saying is, the confusion is literally already there and split categories is doing nothing to help with it. 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

Whoa, what mod is that Rapsoulish streamer playing?

Oh no, I wasn't supposed to post that.

 

Klei trusted him with early access to the new content coming out in November to replace to gorge and forge. Oh man, he's going to get in a lot of trouble for leaking the Chorge early :blue: 

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6 hours ago, Sunset Skye said:

There's the "Retro" category, which allows basically any retro game. Chances are, unless you're streaming something huge like Super Mario World, you're not gonna get any viewers by setting your category to some specific old game like Super Bonk or Adventures of Lolo, so you can instead set the category to "Retro" and have a chance with the thousands of viewers just looking for older games.

Right, but is there any precedence for Twitch merging games from the same franchise into one category (e.g. merging a game and its sequels into one category)? I ask because if there isn't, then the request being made in the OP essentially boils down to getting Twitch to rework their categorization system, which sounds like a giant uphill battle, especially when you consider that this merging option would have to be allowed for every videogame franchise.

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Combining the two games into one category would only benefit the STREAMERS who are obviously out to get more views so they can make more profit off of other people watching you stream.

This does not however actually in any way  help VIEWERS who are there to see the game you are streaming and not just you. 

(because let’s just be 100% honest here.... if they were there to watch YOU, You could be playing Mary-Kate & Ashley’s Sweet 16 on your original Playstation console and they would still watch because they are there to watch you.. not the game)

I think it would help to avoid ad hominem attacks in these kinds of discussions. DST streamers could be greedy terrorbeaks out to make the world a terribler place, and that wouldn't change their argument that merging DS and DST into one category should be done because it would make the single-player version more popular. Being a streamer doesn't validate nor invalidate the argument. Also, undercutting streamers in such a blunt way doesn't really help you both rhetorically and logically, especially considering that by this logic, the most popular gamers would include people who don't talk, show their face, or interact with their chat whatsoever. 

1 hour ago, JazzyGames said:

Also just wanted to say that I do appreciate everyone taking the time to respond, even those who have no stake in the outcome! I hope that I can really drive home the bottom line here, which is that Don't Starve is one of the greatest games ever made and deserves so much more attention than its Twitch category has ever received.

I have to disagree with the premise of this statement. This change involves both the streamer streaming DS and the viewers who watch DS content; both are affected by the outcome. I hope the implication here isn't that being a streamer with high "stakes in the outcome" alone inherently makes the streamer's take any more valid.

I personally would also like single-player DS to receive more attention, especially as someone who really likes the unique mechanics in Hamlet. However, the argument in the OP to me isn't very convincing; it boils down to the ends (DS singleplayer being more popular) justifying the means (getting Twitch to merge two game categories) and the idea that the two games are so similar that separating the two games is pointless. I think you should approach this assuming that they are very different games and look for precedence with regard to Twitch, a website that I've heard takes a very long time to address any concerns in their community let alone sub-communities.  

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6 hours ago, Ispin69 said:

Klei hasn't had any new content for Vanilla DS or ROG in ages. They have abandoned these games.

I wish this meme that DSA is abandoned would die already. Hamlet released in 2019, so it's been about a year since it came out. The wait between Shipwrecked and Hamlet was 4 years. The wait between RoG and Shipwrecked was 1 year. The wait between Don't Starve and RoG was 1 year. If they've "abandoned" DSA because it hasn't had a major content update in the past year then it's been "abandoned" since release, even though 3 major expansions have come out since then.

And even if you compare it to DST the amount of content Hamlet added still far exceeds the amount of content DST has added since Hamlet's release.

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4 minutes ago, Rinkusan said:

Right, but is there any precedence for Twitch merging games from the same franchise into one category

I can't say that it was a merger exactly, but they didn't split new games into new categories despite being entirely different games. Fortnite now has tags for different game modes. Hearthstone now has tags for different game modes (the most relevant being the difference between an auto chess clone and their typical card game). These games don't even resemble each other but still live in the same category and thus don't split the viewer base and subsequently lowering both games search relevance. 

 

And in a situation remarkably similar to what is actually happening on DST right now, the Pokemon community tends to stream any Pokemon related game in the most recent game release category. If you check out sword and shield right now you'll see several people playing Pokemon showdown or TCG card pack opening streams. Despite this being against the community guidelines on Twitch. 

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I think its a good idea to combine the catagories.  I recently joined a facebook group for general don't starve gaming and I'm quite surprised by how many people are playing DS / SW / Hamlet and not DST.  There are a lot of people getting involved in those games, players who are new to the franchise, and since the game play is similar enough I don't think they would be any more confused by "don't starve" /together /sw /hamlet then they would /don'tstarve /don'tstarvetogether.

With many players picking up the solo games it would also help encourage streamers to actually stream the solo games which would help these players learn and enjoy their games more.

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9 minutes ago, Misuto said:

I can't say that it was a merger exactly, but they didn't split new games into new categories despite being entirely different games. Fortnite now has tags for different game modes. Hearthstone now has tags for different game modes (the most relevant being the difference between an auto chess clone and their typical card game). These games don't even resemble each other but still live in the same category and thus don't split the viewer base and subsequently lowering both games search relevance. 

But these are game modes that are all part of the same game, right? What's being suggested in the OP is more akin to merging all the Call of Duty games or all the Sims games into one category. Are there any instances of something like this?
 

14 minutes ago, Misuto said:

And in a situation remarkably similar to what is actually happening on DST right now, the Pokemon community tends to stream any Pokemon related game in the most recent game release category. If you check out sword and shield right now you'll see several people playing Pokemon showdown or TCG card pack opening streams. Despite this being against the community guidelines on Twitch. 

I feel like you might've just found your solution right here. If Twitch isn't punishing these Pokemon players who aren't streaming Sword and Shield but are at least streaming a Pokemon game, couldn't streamers just do the exact same thing in the more popular DST category and then maybe switch over to the regular DS category if Klei releases another single-player DLC that revitalizes this category?

I also took a look at the Twitch guidelines page, and as much of a cop-out as this is on Twitch's side imo, this is what they said: In addition to our Terms of Service, we provide the following guidelines for our community. These guidelines fall under a common sense philosophy and apply to all user generated content and activity on our services. This is considered a living document that we regularly update based on the evolution of the Twitch community and service. Additional guidelines or specific exceptions may be applicable for certain services or properties under the Twitch Service.

So in the first place, these are "common-sense" guidelines, not black-and-white, cut-in-stone rules that are enforced with the strictest possible interpretation. And well, if there's precedence for streamers who understandably do the exact same thing without getting punished, I feel like that's a reasonable grey area that falls under common-sense. That being said, I'd like to know if there actually are any Pokemon streamers or DST streamers who did all of this stuff and got banned because of it because if there are, the solution I suggested is completely void. 

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