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Boat Combat is Disappointing


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I want to start by saying that I really love the new boats. I love how the sailing mechanics are different from Shipwrecked and instead encourage teamwork. Honestly, since they've been introduced, all I do is build cool boats and spend all my days sailing and fishing.

However, combat and boats have not been as successful. There's two major issues:

- Building dummy boats is not fun: So the only practical way to kill sea bosses, is to build dummy boats. For those who don't know what I mean by a 'dummy boat', it's just when you jump from your main boat onto a structure-less empty boat and then paddle your way into a boss fight. This is the only way to avoid damaging and destroying your main boat that has all your structures on it, and therefore it's the only practical way to fight the Malbatross and the Crab King.

- Enemies Loosing Agro: I'm not as concerned about this. The way the Malbatross and Gnarwail loose agro on you when you're fighting seems like a bug to me and will probably be fixed in later updates. Needless to say, your boat is extremely slow, so when an enemy looses agro on you and wonders off, it's a problem and it's not an enjoyable experience. 

 Ultimately, I'm disappointed. When boats were introduced, it seemed to me that Klei was aiming for a Sea of Thieves kind of experience, where the key to success was working together in managing your boat...But that just doesn't seem to apply for combat. When Return of Them was announced, I thought boat fights would be dynamic: you'd have one player steering the wheel, while another player aimed the canons, while a third played patched leaks on the sinking boat. Seriously, where are the canons? 

But instead, boats are just being used as platforms to hit things. That's really disappointing.

    

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Regarding Gnarwails... you can lure them into melee range by "giving" them meat. Click on them with the meat in your mouse and they will start coming towards you. You can right click to cancel actually feeding the meat to them once they are close enough and then whack them.

Also, you don't really need to kill the Gnarwails to get their sole unique drop, so...

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2 hours ago, Charlie Dark said:

Oh right! The crab lady that you can trade useless items with.

Hey, all you need is a pinch'n'winch and you can go treasure hunting!

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I'm with you on boat combat.  When I saw crabking basically auto-killed boats I was not looking forward to the fight.  A good boat is a massive investment.  Not quite as much as beefalo taming, but much more rewarding in the experience of sailing, fishing, navigating ect - but when it comes to combat its just... bad...  I really hope they come up with some better ideas than "every attack just kills your boat."  And what do you do as a player?  You can't kite because there is no room, so you just tank and trade...  thx malbatross :\

I'd also like to say - boats could really use some better light sources, and maybe a little bit more map reaveal, maybe zoom the camera out a touch more.  Its super dangerous sailing into unknown waters to explore, I'd really appreciate a little bit more vision with how long it takes to steer the ship around.

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35 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Hey, all you need is a pinch'n'winch and you can go treasure hunting!

----------------

I'm with you on boat combat.  When I saw crabking basically auto-killed boats I was not looking forward to the fight.  A good boat is a massive investment.  Not quite as much as beefalo taming, but much more rewarding in the experience of sailing, fishing, navigating ect - but when it comes to combat its just... bad...  I really hope they come up with some better ideas than "every attack just kills your boat."  And what do you do as a player?  You can't kite because there is no room, so you just tank and trade...  thx malbatross :\

I'd also like to say - boats could really use some better light sources, and maybe a little bit more map reaveal, maybe zoom the camera out a touch more.  Its super dangerous sailing into unknown waters to explore, I'd really appreciate a little bit more vision with how long it takes to steer the ship around.

An excellent point.

When I have double malbatross mast and I'm exploring, I find myself relying on the map more than the actual game view. You can't see stacks coming otherwise.

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2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

I really hope they come up with some better ideas than "every attack just kills your boat." 

I do think there have been some creative ideas though. Cookie Cutters are very inventive in how they attack and also the initial attack of the Gnarwail, where its horn tears through the deck, is also very cool. Those fights cause damage to your boat in ways you can manage and recover from....The Malbatross and Crab King do not. 

2 hours ago, Well-met said:

An excellent point.

When I have double malbatross mast and I'm exploring, I find myself relying on the map more than the actual game view. You can't see stacks coming otherwise.

This is something I've been saying for ages; this is one of those cases where a Shipwrecked item should just be passed over into DST.

The spyglass just needs to be in DST. It has so much more use in DST than it does in Shipwrecked. In Shipwrecked, because the boats are so fast, it's kinda useless. Meanwhile, in DST, because the boats are so slow, it would be almost an essential item. 

I know Klei hates using Shipwrecked assets. Re-skin it if you need to Klei like you did with the lobsters.

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2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Hey, all you need is a pinch'n'winch and you can go treasure hunting!

----------------

I'm with you on boat combat.  When I saw crabking basically auto-killed boats I was not looking forward to the fight.  A good boat is a massive investment.  Not quite as much as beefalo taming, but much more rewarding in the experience of sailing, fishing, navigating ect - but when it comes to combat its just... bad...  I really hope they come up with some better ideas than "every attack just kills your boat."  And what do you do as a player?  You can't kite because there is no room, so you just tank and trade...  thx malbatross :\

I'd also like to say - boats could really use some better light sources, and maybe a little bit more map reaveal, maybe zoom the camera out a touch more.  Its super dangerous sailing into unknown waters to explore, I'd really appreciate a little bit more vision with how long it takes to steer the ship around.

I spent an entire winter to find out 5 treasures on the map. Everytime I went to the craby lady, there was some good bottles. I could reveal the all map, or almost. And these treasures gave me a lot of malbatross feathers, enough for 2 sails I guess. There's always a golden pick axe. But I thought we could find some other rare objects...

One thing I'm really jealous from PC, it's the zoom. On console we have a little zoom out when we're sailing. I appreciate it, but I'd like to zoom in sometimes. And I could be agree that boats deserve some specific items for it. Specific light, like on top of the mast, or a special design, less larger than the usual one we put on. 

If the next update is a small one, I wish for an update full of new items and only new items, for boats and more.

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There’s no scenario where you’d use the same boat for treasure hunting/fishing and boss fighting.  The reason is that there’s limited space on boats and you want to build utility structures.  This makes boats resource intensive and if cannons (or our closest equivalent, catapaults) were on the boats it takes up space for other things.

If they added combat centric boat structures people would then have battle boats which were substantially more expensive than a mostly bare platform, meaning failing a boss would be a lot more punishing.

In this context, the current system represents a reasonable middle ground where you don’t need to risk expensive boats for boss fights.

There definitely could be a better system, and I’d absolutely want a way to improve vision, but people wouldn’t enjoy if it was necessary to have a decked out boat to fight ocean bosses.

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The dummy boat building thing is a part of the sailing mechanics. The boat has limited space and because of that you cant really do much and run around if you fill it up with Structure.i mean you dont need a chest,tent or crockpots on youre boat when fighting bosses whiche means that you are wasting the limited space that you have on the boat. On top of that nobody said you cant do everything with the same boat. Its just the safest option. 

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1 hour ago, Toros said:

There’s no scenario where you’d use the same boat for treasure hunting/fishing and boss fighting.  The reason is that there’s limited space on boats and you want to build utility structures.  This makes boats resource intensive and if cannons (or our closest equivalent, catapaults) were on the boats it takes up space for other things.

If they added combat centric boat structures people would then have battle boats which were substantially more expensive than a mostly bare platform, meaning failing a boss would be a lot more punishing.

In this context, the current system represents a reasonable middle ground where you don’t need to risk expensive boats for boss fights.

There definitely could be a better system, and I’d absolutely want a way to improve vision, but people wouldn’t enjoy if it was necessary to have a decked out boat to fight ocean bosses.

I think what it comes down to, is that with these new boat mechanics I feel like there's potential for combat that can be more than just kitting on a small platform. Fighting could be more about having your boat dodge projectiles (as in, the enemy targets your boat and the captain needs to steer the boat out of the way quick enough). If Klei added canons, then that opens a lot of possibilities. Like I said previously, there has been some innovative combat with boats, like the Cookie Cutters. There's a lot of things that can done. 

I do agree with you that space is an issue on boats and you would probably have two different boats for hunting/fishing and boss fighting, but I wouldn't mind that personally. 

Then again, like someone mentioned previously, I'm not entirely sure why sea bosses have to destroy your structures.

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1 minute ago, Squirrel12 said:

I think what it comes down to, is that with these new boat mechanics I feel like there's potential for combat that can be more than just kitting on a small platform. Fighting could be more about having your boat dodge projectiles (as in, the enemy targets your boat and the captain needs to steer the boat out of the way quick enough). If Klei added canons, then that opens a lot of possibilities. Like I said previously, there has been some innovative combat with boats, like the Cookie Cutters. There's a lot of things that can done. 

I do agree with you that space is an issue on boats and you would probably have two different boats for hunting/fishing and boss fighting, but I wouldn't mind that personally. 

Then again, like someone mentioned previously, I'm not entirely sure why sea bosses have to destroy your structures.

This definitely would work with SW style boats which are highly maneuverable but RoT boats while they can be fast with malbatross sails are too clumsy for precise maneuvers.  Paddling is too small an effect to really solve that effectively either, so to dodge attacks with current boats you'd need to have huge amounts of warning.

That said, if they massively improved turning speed boat handling could improve very quickly and dramatically.

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suprisingly no one here inserted this guy's post as confusing. either he's spitting straight facts or smth else. i agree with that tho. 100% using your main boat as a fighting boat is suicide depending who you fight. hopefully it'll be better in the future.

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25 minutes ago, Squirrel12 said:

Fighting could be more about having your boat dodge projectiles.

Well to be fair, not “cheesing” crab king does involve dodging a projectile when he does his boiling water. I think when done with one boat and no freeze spamming/bees it’s an amazing fight and push more in that teamwork boat combat than Malbatross. The other points about it being expensive and dangerous are spot on though. More combat structures would be fun.

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8 hours ago, minespatch said:

Well... How are we supposed to meet the grandma tsundere?

just build a long as heck bridge to get it destroyed by malbatross on the next day

8 hours ago, QuartzBeam said:

Regarding Gnarwails... you can lure them into melee range by "giving" them meat. Click on them with the meat in your mouse and they will start coming towards you. You can right click to cancel actually feeding the meat to them once they are close enough and then whack them.

Also, you don't really need to kill the Gnarwails to get their sole unique drop, so...

klei should add a normal weapon that uses gnarwail horn in it's craft. like cutlass supreme, for instance.
let's be honest, strident trident is bad for fighting in it's present appearance. and who uses it to break rocks and kill fish?..

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9 hours ago, Squirrel12 said:

I want to start by saying that I really love the new boats. I love how the sailing mechanics are different from Shipwrecked and instead encourage teamwork. Honestly, since they've been introduced, all I do is build cool boats and spend all my days sailing and fishing.

However, combat and boats have not been as successful. There's two major issues:

- Building dummy boats is not fun: So the only practical way to kill sea bosses, is to build dummy boats. For those who don't know what I mean by a 'dummy boat', it's just when you jump from your main boat onto a structure-less empty boat and then paddle your way into a boss fight. This is the only way to avoid damaging and destroying your main boat that has all your structures on it, and therefore it's the only practical way to fight the Malbatross and the Crab King.

- Enemies Loosing Agro: I'm not as concerned about this. The way the Malbatross and Gnarwail loose agro on you when you're fighting seems like a bug to me and will probably be fixed in later updates. Needless to say, your boat is extremely slow, so when an enemy looses agro on you and wonders off, it's a problem and it's not an enjoyable experience. 

 Ultimately, I'm disappointed. When boats were introduced, it seemed to me that Klei was aiming for a Sea of Thieves kind of experience, where the key to success was working together in managing your boat...But that just doesn't seem to apply for combat. When Return of Them was announced, I thought boat fights would be dynamic: you'd have one player steering the wheel, while another player aimed the canons, while a third played patched leaks on the sinking boat. Seriously, where are the canons? 

But instead, boats are just being used as platforms to hit things. That's really disappointing.

    

Your forgetting that this game can still be played completely alone. 
there’s probably more people who play alone then there are those who play together, because playing with random people online is like going to the jokers birthday party and everyone gets a gift.. out of 5 birthday presents each only 1 is guaranteed not to release laughing gas.

(I’m referencing Batman because I’m a huge Batman nerd ahem anyway...) To apply that into a DST context- this game is NOT and Never has been Multiplayer friendly.. Red Hounds alone are enough for under-experienced players who do not know any better to light the world on fire.. so therefore SOME of us prefer playing in locked private sessions.

Your wanting this to be a forced Multiplayer naval warfare game Like Sea of Thieves but honestly??? Sea of Thieves SUCKS!!! The fact that it forces cooperation and there’s no legit way to turn OFF PvP content made me instantly Hate it.

a BETTER Pirate game to reference would have been ATLAS- not only does it have PVP but it also has PVE mode where you never have to engage another player in forced combat.

The difference? Sea of Thieves as you said requires you to work together with other people or fail Atlas, or hell even Assassins Creed Black Flag allows you to hire A.I. crew mates and sail the oceans entirely alone if that’s what you choose to do.

I play this don’t starve together with 1-2 other people and driving a boat Alone is barely manageable as it is now.. Maybe if I could recruit A.I. to operate the boat it would feel less like A forced Multiplayer centric thing? Just saying.

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52 minutes ago, Duck986 said:

klei should add a normal weapon that uses gnarwail horn in it's craft. like cutlass supreme, for instance.
let's be honest, strident trident is bad for fighting in it's present appearance. and who uses it to break rocks and kill fish?..

The only thing I want Klei to do with Gnarwails is fix them. Their primary purpose is (well, seems to be) to help you out in brine shoals by scaring off the cookie cutters and tossing you hard to reach salt crystals, yet they are terrible at both: their attacks create waves which can be disastrous amidst the densely packed salt stacks and their item tossing is incredibly unreliable in terms of frequency and accuracy.

 

A normal weapon would be redundant. Sailing is an activity that you can't really comfortably engage in until mid-game or later, at which point you should have no issue getting a steady supply of Hambats.

 

As for the Strident Trident, destroying sea stacks without having to stop the boat is probably the best thing about it. As you said it's terrible as a weapon and it is hard to use it for fishing.

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56 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

(I’m referencing Batman because I’m a huge Batman nerd ahem anyway...)

This sidebar does not strengthen your argument.

57 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

To apply that into a DST context- this game is NOT and Never has been Multiplayer friendly..

This game is very multiplayer friendly.  "Together" is literally in the title. Characters have strong synergies, bosses don't scale with more players, and reviving allies is very easy to do.

 

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

 

The difference? Sea of Thieves as you said requires you to work together with other people or fail Atlas, or hell even Assassins Creed Black Flag allows you to hire A.I. crew mates and sail the oceans entirely alone if that’s what you choose to do.

I play this don’t starve together with 1-2 other people and driving a boat Alone is barely manageable as it is now.. Maybe if I could recruit A.I. to operate the boat it would feel less like A forced Multiplayer centric thing? Just saying.

59 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Sea of Thieves SUCKS!!! The fact that it forces cooperation and there’s no legit way to turn OFF PvP content made me instantly Hate it.

a BETTER Pirate game to reference would have been ATLAS- not only does it have PVP but it also has PVE mode where you never have to engage another player in forced combat.

Reviews, player count, and the fact that I've never heard of ATLAS suggest otherwise.

You are comparing Black Flag, which has the sailing be entirely singleplayer with a game that is intended to be enjoyed both multiplayer and singleplayer.

Sailing during the day is easily manageable with a single sail solo.  You don't get the same speed as with 2 malbatross sails, but more speed but less control is a common tradeoff.

Also as far as fire hounds are concerned, if you build flingos they aren't an issue.

49 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

The only thing I want Klei to do with Gnarwails is fix them. Their primary purpose is (well, seems to be) to help you out in brine shoals by scaring off the cookie cutters and tossing you hard to reach salt crystals, yet they are terrible at both: their attacks create waves which can be disastrous amidst the densely packed salt stacks and their item tossing is incredibly unreliable in terms of frequency and accuracy.

 

A normal weapon would be redundant. Sailing is an activity that you can't really comfortably engage in until mid-game or later, at which point you should have no issue getting a steady supply of Hambats.

 

As for the Strident Trident, destroying sea stacks without having to stop the boat is probably the best thing about it. As you said it's terrible as a weapon and it is hard to use it for fishing.

I'd like to see buffs for the trident as something more than a tool to break sea stacks given the trouble you need to go through to acquire it.

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