Exploit karma

[calibayzone]

There are many exploits, and I feel that mentally each carries a karma penalty above which we feel more and more cheated out of a "fair" gaming experience:

Here is my self-assessment of exploits or other mechanics that may seem unfair and their karma costs. In general the exploits that generate/consume more resources cost more. Each exploit only counts once even if it is used in a game many times.

Melt duplication: Using melting tiles or doors to duplicate resources. 10 points.

Water locks: Perfect gas flow block. 1 point.

Steam turbine + aquatuner = heat deletion: 3 points (except on rime).

Door crushers to delete gas or liquids: 2 points.

Geysers: They are free resources. 1-2 points depending on type, cool slush on hot maps or steam on rime is 2 points.

Infinite solid storage with dispensers, infinite fluid storage: 2 points.

Save scumming care packages: 2 points; it is relatively slow after all.

Small pipe packets don't change phase (<10% of capacity). This allows, i.e. piping liquid oxygen at 100C into a rocket. 2 points.

Minimum algae Pacu farm: Cheeses the algae breeding mechanics to vastly reduce the amount, then unfed pacus gives us eggs for free. 4 points.

Brand new (as of this post) pip exploit: Domestic rates with no resource inputs. 4 points.

Diagonal vacuum insulation: Perfect thermal insulation with no research needed. 2 points.

Temperature reset: Only on some items like wood. 3 points. This is easy to accidentally do, so it should be patched.

Remotely setting switches with no duplicate input: 1 point.

Pump range: Pumps don't have to touch the liquid they are in to pump it. 1 point.

Specific heat differences: 2 points.

Hacking Youtube accounts of players: 999 points. Fortunately it seems fixed now.

You may have different opinions, but playing different exploit modes (where we allow or disallow different sets of exploits) may be a fun way to extend the normal gameplay experience.

 

[mathmanican]

12 minutes ago, calibayzone said:

Save scumming care packages: 2 points; it is relatively slow after all.

Looks like you're not familiar with the "save/reload" after selecting what you want.  For example, if you want to get lots of pacus (like 72), then reload till you get a Pacu.  Then, once you do, select it, and save the game after the pacus arrive, but before the package disappears.  Reload, and collect the pacus again. Save/Reload and repeat 9 times, netting 72 pacus.....  This one might be +10 or more.  

[beowulf2010]

26 minutes ago, calibayzone said:

Small pipe packets don't change phase (<10% of capacity). This allows, i.e. piping liquid oxygen at 100C into a rocket. 2 points.

Technically, phase changes don't happen until the material exits the pipe. It's just that at 10% or less, they just don't damage the pipe they are in when the phase change would happen. Also, this seems to be intended behavior due to its consistent behavior between the types of pipes and the programmer's choice implementing different rules above and below the 10% pipe capacity. I would argue no exploit for using this. 

Also, the Pip planter exploit only saves you solid resources. Your dupes will still transport liquids to the flower pot. As such, I agree with the 4 rating. 

[calibayzone]

"This seems to be intended behavior".

I am not going by how intended things are, I am going by how I feel about them. Loading a rocket with liquid oxygen at 200C to get rid of heat in the base seems a bit exploity.

[yoakenashi]

Deleted all but those exploits I use:

1 hour ago, calibayzone said:

Water locks: Perfect gas flow block. 1 point.

Steam turbine + aquatuner = heat deletion: 3 points (except on rime).

Geysers: They are free resources. 1 points depending on type, cool slush on hot maps or steam on rime is 2 points.

Remotely setting switches with no duplicate input: 1 point.

You left out door compressors. I'll equate that with infinite storage and door crushers: 2

Total score: 8

Seems reasonable, but my karma impact is still 0. Maybe that's another exploit?

Players that don't like certain exploits, won't use them. That is fine. Everyone should play the game however they like, regardless of how others play the game. This isn't a multiplayer game, no one gains an advantage over another. The only reason someone should complain about an game mechanic is if it diminishes their own game play. Like the temperature reset bug/exploit; I personally find it annoying.

[0xFADE]

The small pipe packet thing is definitely intended behavior.  It had to be specifically coded to work that way.  There are no mechanics where that thing would be an unintended outcome.

To each his own but clever uses of game mechanics should never be poo pooed especially in a game where you make your own fun.  By your listed exceptions any form of natural farming would fall in the range of making resources from nothing.  Or harvesting the exhaust from rockets etc.

[Yalp]

To me most of those points are variable as the player becomes more experienced with the game. For the first few bases I'd probably set them all quite high. Later on they become additional content to play with.

A lot of *advanced mechanics* are a double edged sword. Diagonal liquid/gas swapping for example can screw you up quite badly. (not on the list)

 

Two more exploits:

- Liquid Tepidizer "overheating"
- Infinite power transfer on regular wire

 

[Xenotrix]

What about mechanical filter? I use it everywhere. How many karma i lost?

Spoiler

 

[mathmanican]

1 hour ago, Xenotrix said:

What about mechanical filter?

Since water locks are 1 pt, I'd say th he same 1 element rule applies. Of course you could also just claim 0 pts for any one element per tlie rule as it is a fundamental principle of the ONI universe for now. Abuse it to the max for optimal play! To each their own.

[Gurgel]

Water locks and Geysers as "exploits"?  Seriously? That is messed up.  

A good engineer uses all that is available. A great engineer does so in unexpected and imaginative combinations and ways. The only thing I see as an exploit is bug-using. Anything else is part of the simulation and not only fair game, but intended to be used.

[Olleus]

Geysers specifically make no sense as an exploit. Getting free resources from them is precisely their intended purpose! You might as well say that getting oxygen from an oxidiser is an exploit.

[0xFADE]

3 hours ago, Xenotrix said:

What about mechanical filter? I use it everywhere. How many karma i lost?

  Hide contents

 

Mechanical filters are great.  If they cost karma I'd be at some Overlord -500 extreme evil karma rating since I also play on geoactive maps for MORE geysers.  I remember back before they existed.  Each one is a problem that needs to be solved and the reward is resources.  I also use horrible water locks especially since visco-gel is made specifically for that purpose.

[TheMule]

4 hours ago, calibayzone said:

I am not going by how intended things are, I am going by how I feel about them.

The way I feel about it, is that I'm going by how the game designers wanted it. Some things are intended, but maybe not desired. So there are 4 tiers for me:

- things that work the way they were designed from the start, working as intended 100%;

- things that had to be adjusted as a compromise (performance mostly, too complicated programming and such); for example, the one tile one element rule;

- things that devs don't like generically, in need to be changed on day, but low priority;

- plain bugs: things that are not working as intended or have unexpected side-effects that need to be corrected. This can also be low priority, but it's clearly a bug.

Everything that falls in the tier-1 category I don't call an exploit. Geysers are part of the game as designed. 1/10 of a pipe max content not changing phase most likely is tier-1, too. 

Geaser blocking by a single tile is tier-2. They have been clearly programmed that way, but more for technical reasons than by design. It's the result of a compromise between a game designer and a programmer. Mechanical filters fall into this category too.

tier-3 example might be temperature reset on rails for genetic ooze. Or two layers of liquid not submerging a building.

tier-4 example might be natural tile creation by door deconstruction. That's unintended side effect of the code.

It's not always obvious which category something belongs to. Regolith having a different SHC than magma? Might be everything from tier-4 to tier-2. Maybe a programmer just typed in or copy/pasted the wrong number. Or, they'd like to change it but it would have a too big impact on the game... like: do we reduce all geothermal power by 80%? or do we make the thermal energy that falls from the sky +400%? or do we reduce the amount of regolith that falls from the sky by 80%? do we make it colder?

[Edoc_]

7 hours ago, calibayzone said:

Steam turbine + aquatuner = heat deletion: 3 points (except on rime).

Isn't that the main goal of the AT and steam turbine setup, wasn't it inteded like so ?

I hardly see it as a way of "cheating" more like using an intended feature. 

Maybe i'm wrong then i would love to know why

 

[0xFADE]

14 minutes ago, Edoc_ said:

Isn't that the main goal of the AT and steam turbine setup, wasn't it inteded like so ?

I hardly see it as a way of "cheating" more like using an intended feature. 

Maybe i'm wrong then i would love to know why

 

Don't tell him you can delete heat with an aquatuner and ethanol too.

[Edoc_]

3 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

Don't tell him you can delete heat with an aquatuner and ethanol too.

I won't tell him but i'm quite curious i will mess around with ethanol in my next playthrough, you use it as a coolant ?

Or maybe the phase change ? (i'll put in spolers to make sure it's hidden)

Spoiler

According to the wiki :

Quote

Due to the specific heat capacity difference between the liquid and gas, repeatedly heating and cooling ethanol can serve as a heat deletion method

 

[0xFADE]

 

[Edoc_]

3 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

 

Really interesting ! Thakns ! But i can't help to notice that at first the AT is running 100% of the time even if he states that's not anymore the case after 60 cycles, i wonder what is the AT uptime then. Do you use it as well ? (i hope i'm not hijacking the thread, is there a place for small questions ?)

[0xFADE]

I have not used ethanol for aquatuner cooling directly but the idea is to expose the stuff you are cooling to the room the aquatuner is in (a vacuum) above the ethanol so when it does turn to gas it will cool back down to liquid.  I have used ethanol in steam generator rooms for the same thing.  It takes less energy to keep the steam generator cool that way.

[Edoc_]

I see, i like that.

It's a cool build for sure !

[calibayzone]

Quote

Don't tell him you can delete heat with an aquatuner and ethanol too.

Lol I already knew about the crying crab and have linked the heat-generation equivalent of it in the top post.

The game needs something inherently unrealistic to be sustainable, but unrealism feels exploity no matter how "indented" it is. It's a balance.

If we use everything that is intended, the game gets too easy for veterans on it's default settings, and one person even found it doable on maximum difficulty! It has to get too easy in order to be accessible for newer players.

In light of this, experienced players have three choices: Make the game settings harder, add mods, or restrict what is allowed to be used. (Adding dupes often causes CPU limitations before it actually gets much harder).

There are only four ways to make the game settings harder: map, disease, hunger, and stress.
Most mods make the game easier: By adding tools or buildings or other helpful features like sink queuing. Others add information like the visualize building range mod, which I don't assign a karma cost to in most cases. It is rare for a mod to make things harder.

"Expoit" limitations create more variety from game to game: There are many different "settings" based on what we disallow ourselves to use. A no steam turbine play on Oasisse meant I was thinking more carefully about how my sour gas boiler could maximize heat deletion, which was much more interesting than the standard turbine+aquatuner setup.

The hope for the point system is to add a metagame of "you get 10 points, where do you spend them?". Points probably need to be adjusted for this to work well however. Even without the meta-game we could just challenge ourselves.

[psusi]

17 hours ago, calibayzone said:

Steam turbine + aquatuner = heat deletion: 3 points (except on rime).

That is not an exploit, that's exactly that they are designed to do.  Do you just not like the fact that it deletes heat?  What about an AETN or wheezworts?  Without these, you would be doomed to die a heat death fairly quickly.

17 hours ago, calibayzone said:

Geysers: They are free resources. 1-2 points depending on type, cool slush on hot maps or steam on rime is 2 points.

Again, without these you would be doomed to a fairly quick death.  If you are against adding resources, then logically, you must be against deleting them too.  Like how a hydrogen generator deletes hydrogen instead of also having to consume oxygen and produce water.  Or how dupes consume so much oxygen but produce so little CO2.

17 hours ago, calibayzone said:

Minimum algae Pacu farm: Cheeses the algae breeding mechanics to vastly reduce the amount, then unfed pacus gives us eggs for free. 4 points.

I'd agree with this if not for the fact that it's the only way to breed pacu since otherwise, they eat SOOO MUCH.

17 hours ago, mathmanican said:

Looks like you're not familiar with the "save/reload" after selecting what you want.  For example, if you want to get lots of pacus (like 72), then reload till you get a Pacu.  Then, once you do, select it, and save the game after the pacus arrive, but before the package disappears.  Reload, and collect the pacus again. Save/Reload and repeat 9 times, netting 72 pacus.....  This one might be +10 or more.  

Wow, I did not know that.  I thought he just meant saving the game before you open the menu, and reloading if you don't like any of the choices so you get new choices.

[0xFADE]

Slimelung used to actually be fatal and needed to be cured.  But now there isn't really any reason to cure any diseases.

I don't use many mods but I did find one that allows you to savescum the pod without needing to reload(since reloading can take 5+ minutes when you get an older base) called Refresh Selection(with an oriental title)

[lee1026]

Note that the devs showed a water lock in the trailer of the game. That is probably a good reason to think that they think that water locks are working as designed. 

[KittenIsAGeek]

On 4/17/2020 at 9:39 PM, calibayzone said:

There are many exploits, and I feel that mentally each carries a karma penalty above which we feel more and more cheated out of a "fair" gaming experience:

Your idea and post are well thought out, but I humbly disagree with your premise.    As ONI is more of a sandbox than a competition, I don't think its possible to feel cheated out of a fair gaming experience.  Klei has given us the basic tools, but we're free to adjust world generation files, create mods that completely change gameplay, etc.  The definition of 'exploit' within this framework is also subjective.  As you can see in the rest of this thread, something that one person views as an exploit is seen as perfectly reasonable by another.

I believe that the game is designed to spark creativity and ingenuity, rather than to simply 'win.'  For me, the game is much more enjoyable when I look at a problem and start thinking about how to solve it.  If I'm using a door as a controllable thermal conduction device, that isn't an exploit -- its simply finding an alternative use for an item that solves the problem of transferring heat from a volcano to oil so I can boil it into petrol without cooking it into sour gas.

I also disagree with several items on the list, as they're intended consequences of game mechanics.  For example:

On 4/17/2020 at 9:39 PM, calibayzone said:

Steam turbine + aquatuner = heat deletion: 3 points (except on rime).

An aquatuner is specifically designed to move heat.  In fact, it is designed to move heat out of a liquid and into the environment.  This costs power to accomplish work.  A steam turbine is designed to turn heat energy (in the form of steam) into power.  This, essentially, is taking the power stored in heat energy from the environment and using it to produce electricity.  The steam turbine, then, has the opposite functionality of the aquatuner.  Pairing them together you can take heat energy from something hot, transfer it into steam with the aquatuner, then use the turbine to turn that heat energy into electricity.  There is no heat deletion because you're using that heat to do work.  You won't get nearly as much electricity out of the turbine as you put in to produce the steam, so it still costs power overall to cool something.  

You could claim that using an air conditioner in your house is an exploit, because you're using power to 'delete' the heat in the room.  Really, you're doing a version of the above.  A heat pump (air conditioner, aquatuner, whatever) is moving heat from one substance to another at the cost of power.  That heat, in the case of  an air conditioner, is piped outdoors where it is released into the environment.  Because earth's environment is, when compared to a single house air conditioner, effectively infinite, that heat seems to simply disappear.  Poof! Gone! No longer exists.  Because ONI is a very closed environment, there are only a couple of ways to get rid of heat.  You can pump it outside of the asteroid where it 'vanishes' into the environment of space, OR you can use that heat energy to do work.  

 

I did like seeing your point of view, but I don't agree with it.  *shrug*  The only time ONI isn't 'fun' for me is when I'm not playing it.