Narcoleptics

[sktzofreak101]

Out of curiosity, why all the hate on narcoleptic dupes? Sure their work gets interrupted from time to time but they virtually never need sleep in their bed. The naps only last a short bit and seem to recharge a ton of stamina. Is there something I'm missing?

[noric]

Dupe falls asleep, drops item for a task, 2nd dupe goes to retrieve the dropped item and a 3rd goes to finish the job. Worst case 3 dupes end up doing 1 job.  

[suicide commando]

Also, they can and will sleep in 'hazardous' locations as well, causing yet more trouble.

 

[Lilalaunekuh]

There are 2 bad things about narcoleptic duplicants:

1. Like noric said: They interrupt their task, which can result in quite some wasted time. (Especially by other duplicants)
2. A random sleep pattern in a game about careful planning, feels wrong to start with ...

 

[blackbellamy]

With this game notifying me about impending Dupe death when they're already half-suffocated or almost otherwise dead, I really don't want them falling asleep in random places.

[metallichydra]

its so sad that some traits are just too bad to accept in your colony 

[Grimgaw]

4 hours ago, noric said:

Dupe falls asleep, drops item for a task, 2nd dupe goes to retrieve the dropped item and a 3rd goes to finish the job. Worst case 3 dupes end up doing 1 job.

How's that different than end of shift for other dupes?

[DarkMaster13]

Narcoleptics are mainly annoying.  The nap doesn't actually affect their sleeping needs and they'll wake up automatically if they're in a dangerous place.  You can wake them up to no ill effects if you order them to move to the tile they're currently occupying.  The thing about jobs being interupted is a legitimate issue, though I wouldn't classify it as bad as something like flatulent or allergies which force me to significantly change my base plan.

[KittenIsAGeek]

I don't mind narcoleptic dupes.   Relative to other bad traits, narcolepsy is rather mild.  Yes, there are some problems -- otherwise it wouldn't be a bad trait.  Flatulence and Allergies are far more detrimental IMHO.  I've only had a couple of flatulent dupes and both times I really got frustrated with them -- and we're not going to talk about Mae and her allergies.

[Aelfled]

Narcoleptic can be absolutely terrible for ranching in particular, because you can't interrupt and resume grooming. Either you do it all the way to the third stroke, or it doesn't count and they stay glum.

[Gus Smedstad]

I've always reflexively refused nacroleptics since the trait looked really, really bad. I just deliberately took one so I can get some first hand experience to see what it affects.

The obvious problem is that they'll probably spend more time sleeping overall, because "sleep on the floor" recovers Stamina much slower than sleep in a cot or plastic bed. A secondary problem is that they probably need their own schedule. "Bedtime" forces Dupes to stay in bed even after they reach 100% Stamina. On the other hand, "downtime" sometimes appears to get Dupes out of bed before they're done sleeping. I've yet to find a truly satisfactory way of getting Dupes to sleep as much as they need and no more.

[Footman Crouch]

I only take it if it were chef, artist and farmer. Those jobs don't lead them to dangerous enviroment and doesn't screw any important operation.

Miner with nacroleptics is baaad, the last thing i want to see is my miner sleeping inside chlorine/hydrogen enviroment with their air meter running out.

[Nebbie]

Over time the game has punished bad sleeping even more, as dupes get sore back debuff plus can get interrupted sleep from a light source. Since light sources are really important for speeding up tasks now, this is a big issue.

Similarly, the extra gas issues I end up with relating to ethanol power or rust deoxidization make a bit of natural gas a serious problem to avoid. I used to accept flatulent dupes with abandon and just put in a pump or two in key places to eventually deal with it, but in my current base I'm even intentionally avoiding a natural gas geyser for exploitation.

Meanwhile, allergies turn a perfectly good abuse of weird game mechanics into a nightmare.

Oh, and small bladder is a .2% increase to bladder, which is so small you should never see any noticible effect, so I can just reroll until that's the negative trait.
Negative traits need a bit of an overhaul. Flatulent wouldn't be so bad if it was just food-poisoning-contaminated polluted oxygen (despite all the memes, natural gas is fairly rare in human flatulence, and doesn't stink, it's just your basic sewer gases, which are polluted oxygen in ONI). Allergies should be minor and one of the more "okay" negative traits. Small bladder should be like 20%. And finally, narcoleptic shouldn't be able to happen while a dupe is carrying out an order (just between doing them, or while idle) while breath is high.

[6Havok9]

1 hour ago, Gus Smedstad said:

...I've yet to find a truly satisfactory way of getting Dupes to sleep as much as they need and no more.

If you give 'em enough time to get to their bed (2 blocks of bedtime should suffice) they'll sleep until they have 100% stamina. Then they'll wake up and proceed as scheduled.

Narcoleptics aren't that bad, they get stress relief and bonus stamina recovery, they actually need less sleep time, but I guess those issues aren't so pressing right now. They are annoying if they drop things that offgas... And if other dupes must take their place while they drool on the floor.

[MorsDux]

Narcoleptics can be used without negative effects as chefs and farmers. Just disable store/supply/life support. If you have a fully auto kitchen they just stand there and cook, sometimes sleep a little.

I will never forgive my flatulent dupe that he farted in a vacuumed turbine room. He got locked out of supply and build tasks and gonna be the first to pilot a rocket;)

[sktzofreak101]

Ok, I fully agree on them being terrible miners/supply runners. I don't find them too bad otherwise. The stress relief is nice, and I only give them one block of sleep followed by bath time (since bath time they'll work during if they have no pressing needs or continue sleeping if they aren't full). They don't get sore back from their naps, only from actually sleeping on the floor. Not sure if light affects them or not during their naps but if it does it would only wake them up not penalize them. I like them as researchers and cooks myself, and they're ok operators as long as you keep them out of hazard areas.

[Gus Smedstad]

2 hours ago, Nebbie said:

in my current base I'm even intentionally avoiding a natural gas geyser for exploitation.

You're going to have to explain this one to me, because it doesn't make any sense at all. There's no drawback to exploiting a natural gas geyser. You enclose it, you pump the gas, you get energy, polluted water, and CO2 as a benefit. What exactly is the downside?

[Nebbie]

Just now, Gus Smedstad said:

You're going to have to explain this one to me, because it doesn't make any sense at all. There's no drawback to exploiting a natural gas geyser. You enclose it, you pump the gas, you get energy, polluted water, and CO2 as a benefit. What exactly is the downside?

Mainly just initial construction inevitably goes wrong and then a large pocket of natural gas has to be dealt with. My base doesn't need the power yet and I want to make sure I have reliable cooling first.

[Gus Smedstad]

I’ll grant you that some gas is going to escape. I recently built my first natural gas enclosure for my current colony, and because it was pressurized up to 5 kg/tile by the time I broke in, some of it got past my airlock.

However... I didn’t feel any need at all to “deal with” the resulting cloud. It wasn’t affecting anything, really, aside from contributing to pool of gasses that tends to collect at the bottom of the map. It was maybe 4-5 tiles of gas, and if I really, really had a problem with Dupes breathing down there, I’d just dig out that many tiles. Problem solved, and significant resource gained.

In practice, this time the Dupes were already in pressure suits by the time I was ready, so breathing was a non-issue.

2 hours ago, 6Havok9 said:

If you give 'em enough time to get to their bed (2 blocks of bedtime should suffice) they'll sleep until they have 100% stamina. Then they'll wake up and proceed as scheduled.

That doesn’t really solve the problem at all.

The root problem is that the time to get to bed is high variable. I was just watching my Nacroleptic, and she didn’t make it to bed until 3 hours (I consider each time block “1 hour”) until after Downtime started, and only recovered about 20% stamina before the schedule woke her up again.

So, to solve that problem, I’d need 4 blocks of downtime, and then 2 blocks of bedtime. Assuming 2 blocks is enough to get enough to get a full charge in a cot, which I don’t think it is. It probably is in a plastic bed, but I’m still working on plastic.

Meanwhile, it’s not taking most Dupes 3.5 hours to get to bed. So if I allocate 3-4 blocks of downtime before bedtime, they stand around doing nothing for hours.

I’m glossing over blocks of downtime for actual recreation, since that’s over and above time the bare minimum to return home, hit the toilet, eat, and sleep. Right now my Dupes are getting enough morale that they don’t need recreation. Yet.

Writing this, it occurs to me that part of her problem is she’s brand new. It’s cycle 132, and my starting Dupes have Athletics 12, for +120% runspeed. Which is why they get to bed on time.

Maybe I should have specialized schedules for newbies with low athletics.

[minespatch]

Narcoleptics and farting dupes don't bother me as much as Allergic and loud sleepers. Allergic really hurts me late game and farting are pretty harmless except from disgust from other dupes.

[Technoincubus]

I always decline narcoleptics. It is like flatulent - trait that i will NEVER take

[6Havok9]

9 hours ago, Gus Smedstad said:

Maybe I should have specialized schedules for newbies with low athletics.

Go go Hamster wheel!!! 

[MorsDux]

10 hours ago, minespatch said:

Narcoleptics and farting dupes don't bother me as much as Allergic and loud sleepers. Allergic really hurts me late game and farting are pretty harmless except from disgust from other dupes.

I dont get the hate on loud sleepers. You just make them sleep on schedule with nobody else and you dont even have to manage anything about the cots. Literally no effect. 

I havent got an allergic dupe, does the allergy medicine not solve the problem?

[Lafara]

200% stress per cycle counter with 1 seed. .... not solve at all

[Gus Smedstad]

After spending some time with a narcoleptic Dupe in my colony, I think my fears were overstated. Most cycles she didn't pass out at all. The one time she did, it wasn't for very long. Maybe a few seconds at most. Sleep was the typical poor "passed out" recovery rate, but there was no sore back penalty afterward.

The initial post - "they virtually never need to sleep in their bed" - wasn't true at all. In fact, I'd say that the very infrequent naps have no meaningful effect on a narcoleptic's overall sleep schedule. They don't last long enough to change anything.

My take on it is now that it's one of the more benign drawbacks. There are certainly some that are even less trouble, but I'm no longer going to reject them.