We need to discuss bundling wraps. Again…

[Maxposting]

1 hour ago, Ezaroth said:

Maybe reduce the slots from 4 to 1?

It would break my scaled chest x bundle wrap storage

[Sinister_Fang]

When food is already fairly easy to get, I think stopping it from spoiling entirely is a little over the top. I don't think I'd have any issues with it if spoilage was slowed down rather then halted entirely.

1 hour ago, Ezaroth said:

Maybe reduce the slots from 4 to 1?

This would kill it's utility outside of food preservation. I personally like to use it as a way to store bulk amounts of items in smaller spaces. Instead of being able to store only 180 logs in a single chest, I could potentially store up to 720.

[Ezaroth]

1 minute ago, Sinister_Fang said:

This would kill it's utility outside of food preservation. I personally like to use it as a way to store bulk amounts of items in smaller spaces. Instead of being able to store only 180 logs in a single chest, I could potentially store up to 720.

Exactly. It has 2 powerful perks on a single item.

[Maxposting]

2 hours ago, Ezaroth said:

Exactly. It has 2 powerful perks on a single item.

Yeah but then it's literally useless if you are drowning in chest space and food ( unless you are going out of the base for once and need food for your misfortunes )

 

[Redakted]

I think they're fine.  They're a fun part of the game that most casual players never even get.  There are better and funner ways to make the game "more challenging"

[Mooka]

I think bundle wrap is fine. I don't wan't to waste my time farming ingredients every 10 days. It's an essential mechanic in the game.

[the_revenant]

I don't mean to generalize, but many people that say farming food is a chore and just not interesting also like to complain about the game getting tedious fast after the second or third game year or whatever. And this truly gets me confused.

Farming food is not even that hard and to keep it as a constant necessity helps to keep the player on their toes. I don't view it as a chore. In fact, I don't remember people complaining about it before bundles came about. But I respect your opinion nonetheless.

From my observations, people who like bundling wraps are those who like building huge bases, consider food farming just a distraction/inconvenience and wish for more "end game stuff". And that's fine and, again, I don't mean to generalize. But to me, releasing an endless amount of content to eternally pursue an endgame that isn't boring (if such a thing as "endgame" is even possible in a sandbox game) is going to be a draining challenge that neither Klei nor any developer would be able to deliver.

 

 

 

1

8 hours ago, Bird Up said:

You say it's broken because it gives infinite food. it actually just gives infinite preservation of food. You still have to get the food, therefore it's not even infinite, just infinite pause on spoil time until you need to eat it. But even the concept of infinite food isn't necessarily broken. Food has always been easy to manage with various farms once you get your base set up, bundling wrap or not doesn't change this. Canceling spoilage isn't a very interesting mechanic for me, I just use the wraps as a small backpack when I need to carry more things and I don't have chester.

Sorry, it does change it drastically. C'mon. Nothing spoils anymore. The bundling wrap costs literally one rope. It's virtually infinite food.
Farming food is not a constant task anymore and therefore the game is prone to get boring considerably faster as soon as the player gets totally relaxed, and/or the new game content gets stale and/or they have finished building their mega base. 

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Bird Up said:

What I like about bundling wrap is that it's actually a boss item that feels it's worth getting. The game needs more of this - not less. I've never seen anyone rush toadstool because they needed that sweet, sweet toadstool loot. doesn't happen.

I understand your point of view. But let me ask you this: don't you think removing wax paper from Klaus wouldn't make killing Bee Queen even more important, while also balancing out the wrap in the process? 
Klaus wouldn't even be bad after this. He is basically a gamble boss. You can either get a deerclops eyeball, a mandrake, a krampus sack or literally come up with nothing. But a guaranteed 4 wax paper drop is too much imo.

For some reason i'm not able to edit a quote here without having that huge white space gap. 

[seffard]

My nerf would be 2 slots over 4 and a little spoilage, maybe 10 or 15%. The one rope cost is fine because you dont get to peek what's inside when you carry many bundles(you may mess up what's what too) and I happen to open them often on journeys in order to use the stuff. It's a perk of the item to be cheap. I dont mind removing wax paper from Klaus.

Wolfgang will have his power nerfed. You cant keep him like that with Warly's buffs(devs hinted at that on Warly's stream), which it's like god mode for me, and he was too powerful already without them. I played him once alone and it was boring as hell to destroy everything head-on without any challenge, but of course that's only my vote. 

 

[minespatch]

6 hours ago, SinancoTheBest said:

The Klaus idea is cool, I think he should drop Winter's Feast gift wraps, his gifts are already very rewarding, why give wax papers on top? This would help slow down the acquisition of wraps in the server as Honeycombs are only semi-renewable and earlier ones are better spent on Bee Boxes.

Christmas pinata.

[Ermac__]

I'm wary about nerfing boss drops. Too many of them are terrible for the investment or just cosmetic filler. Bee Queen is one of the few bosses that is actually really worth killing early and is balanced around her drops if in a very artificial way(not counting on cheese). A small hit to food spoilage maybe but I'm really not sold on the benefit of making the game more difficult by increasing busy work. Automation is a reward for beating challenges. I'd rather get some more difficult bosses that necessitate using stuff like bundling wraps. I think I would simply settle for reducing the sources of beewax and that's it.

[me real life]

3 hours ago, the_revenant said:

I don't mean to generalize, but many people that say farming food is a chore and just not interesting also like to complain about the game getting tedious fast after the second or third game year or whatever. And this truly gets me confused.

Farming food is not even that hard and to keep it as a constant necessity helps to keep the player on their toes. I don't view it as a chore. In fact, I don't remember people complaining about it before bundles came about. But I respect your opinion nonetheless.

That's the thing, though. Farming food is not hard, it's not a challenge, but it's something you have to do regularly that takes away time you could be spending having actual fun. Bundling wraps let you preserve lots of food, and so you don't have to worry about slowly making your way back to base, befriending a bunnyman, then fake-attacking other bunnymen over and over, then killing off the last one, then picking up all the drops, then feeding some of the meat to a bird for eggs (and you'll either need to wait for day, or put the bird in and out of the birdcage to keep it awake), then picking up all the eggs since they get dropped on the ground, then putting ingredients in your crock pots, then waiting, then finally getting your food and being able to go back to the actual fun you were having, every... let's say, 15 days, if you're eating bacon and eggs. I'd consider that process a chore which distracts from the enjoyable part of the game, and I think it's good that it's no longer required so frequently.

People didn't complain about frequently farming food before bundles existed, for the simple reason that bundles didn't exist. People hadn't experienced bundles, so they had no reason to complain about the lack of them.

[camelot]

44 minutes ago, Sunset Skye said:

then finally getting your food and being able to go back to the actual fun you were having, every... let's say, 15 days, if you're eating bacon and eggs. I'd consider that process a chore which distracts from the enjoyable part of the game, and I think it's good that it's no longer required so frequently.

Then this game should no longer an "uncompromising survival game" but an adventure game. Getting stuffs is the core part of a survival game, it should not be so trivia like at this state. And if you want to remove that part, you can always install mods to focus on fun part (quick pick, fast travel, 45 inventory slots, you name it)

[me real life]

57 minutes ago, camelot said:

Then this game should no longer an "uncompromising survival game" but an adventure game. Getting stuffs is the core part of a survival game, it should not be so trivia like at this state.

You need to think of these mechanics in the context of the actual videogame. Killing the Bee Queen once doesn't give everyone in the server access to bundling wraps, which will then be filled with infinite food after a single harvest of any farm. You still have to farm food, and you still have to manage your hunger bar, you just have to do both less. It's not trivial, it's just less tedious.

57 minutes ago, camelot said:

And if you want to remove that part, you can always install mods to focus on fun part (quick pick, fast travel, 45 inventory slots, you name it)

I never said I wanted to remove it, though. I just don't want to have to do it so frequently. I don't understand these example mods, as they have nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

[the_revenant]

Ok. So, I'm cautious about the idea of taking this forum as a trusty sample of the opinion of most players. However, it's still possibly the most reliable source of info that we have.

After reading just these few replies, I will assume that many people view food gathering as a chore and therefore don't want a nerf to the bundling wrap, which disappoints me but it's fine.

So my suggestion is: don't nerf the bundling wrap, but at least nerf Klaus and wish that Klei is mindful of the number of killer bee hives some worlds can generate.

Let me use this opportunity to ask another question: How about lessen the number of hives in this killer bee biome and make the Bee Queen always drop 2 honeycombs (not a fan of this last part, but just putting it out there). Perhaps the item doesn't need to be nerfed, but rather make it more luxurious and less trivial to craft, so it truly feels an "endgame" item. Tweaking Klaus is definitely a good start.

Having said all that, I wanna say to the people who dislike bundling wraps as they are. If you're reading this, and you don't like them, speak up. Your opinion matters too.  

 

[CameoAppearance]

I think killer bee fields should stay as a significant early to mid game hazard, but perhaps to preserve the danger they could contain more bees per hive if hives were made to generate in smaller quantities? 

[the_revenant]

24 minutes ago, CameoAppearance said:

I think killer bee fields should stay as a significant early to mid game hazard, but perhaps to preserve the danger they could contain more bees per hive if hives were made to generate in smaller quantities? 

Speaking of Killer Beehives. I don't think Klei cares about your concern (if killer bees are an actual obstacle). They were SO much stronger before. It got to a point, possibly during A New Reign, where Klei seemed to be determined to just make everything less hard. The attack range for killer bees was MUCH bigger, does anyone remember this? They are a joke now. Abigail drops them literally like flies because they can't even touch wendy. It's kinda hilarious even.

So to answer your question, if Klei ever takes the suggestion of lessening the number of beehives in the killer bee biome, they probably won't care if there's a side effect that makes killer bee hives less of a threat. 

[maradyne]

I'm fine with the current Bundling Wrap effects, seeing as it's a scaling benefit that grows with game time and cuts down on tedium as it grows, which is the kind of growing power that should be present in a game like this as the player conquers the world.
DST has been moving away from straight survival to somewhat of an adventure/power-creep game with its updates; it's no longer simple DS with multiplayer. The player should have resources available that make that new content more accessible for some effort.

I'll agree though that Klaus's drops can multiply the effect a bit too much. I'd be all for the packages being flimsy, insta-break christmas wrap, with a chance of including a bit of wax paper or honeycombs, like other rare items that the sack can drop.

 

Personally I'd be hesitant to change up the Killer Bee zone just because it's a unique map feature and, in its natural state, enables an alternate honey farming strat with Abigail. I can't say that I see that as too much of a problem; characters should have strats unique to them that change up the game. Similar case with the 24/7 Abigail Ruins Buffet; you trade single target damage capabilities of most other characters, for an AoE that is rewarding when managed correctly. Kinda the opposite of Golfwang.
The bees themselves could change though. I'd focus on nimbleness rather than stats: speed them up and improve the AI. They're bugs, they should be kind of frustrating to deal with. Keep the damage low so new players can still manage, and have them deaggro when they're out of range of their nest. If it's gone, they stay angry. Balance in all things. The world can be manageable but still be unforgiving.

We still need some game-default way of automatically removing Stingers from the world; they build up far too much. Perhaps a long freshness timer, where they just crumble to nothing at the end rather than rot.
Left alone, Stingers can currently add a noticeable bit to server load.

[WoodieMain45684]

Just gonna put this out there, but I like the idea of the game being harder. Most of the time when I see a thread about making any aspect of the game harder my first reaction is: i'lL TaKe yOuR EN-tire STocK.

But at the same time I don't want the game to absolutely miserable and unfun for newer players.

And finally adding tedium is almost always, (but sometimes not) a bad idea for making the game harder.

In regards to bundling wrap not freezing your items indefinitely. 

First off, it makes the game harder, which is what SOME older players want (I'm not sure exactly of the composition)

Secondly, this will rarely affect newer players at all. So another check marked.

And finally, tedium. It does add tedium in regards to actually having to care about the freshness of your food. Though it does come with somewhat of an expensive cost. Soon the Maxwell BQ rush exploit will most likely not function, so we will rule that out. Which leaves us with tentacle spamming, catapult spamming, and bunnymen spamming. All of which are not exactly that hard to do. The second is the most expensive, but it is probably the safest and most repeatable. So all in all, solving spoilage does not have that steep a price on it.

I personally would say to make it to where the wraps do not stop the spoilage completely because it can effectively nullify a mechanic of the game, and I personally HATE it when that happens. Though I can certainly see where some mega-basers and similar players would say its absolutely fine because it solves the problem in a simple fashion.

Which brings me to my final point, EXPERT MODE. Satisfies all groups. If mega-basers don't want the nerfed wraps: don't play it. Of course this wouldn't be the only change in the gamemode, but you get the idea. I would say just change world settings, but they are not extensive enough to hit all of the areas that HArDCoRE players would want changed.

Oh and the Klaus dropping presents instead thing and the scarcity of honeycombs: I love the idea of the presents and the honeycombs are just not rare at all, and their respawn rate doesn't matter: you start the world with a ridiculous amount anyways. Its not like the bee boxes or wraps consume more than 1 or require more to function. It's a one time cost.

 

[AdventZen]

I'd like to mention, first of all, that your post has amazing flow and it's delightful to read, the way you use font sizes and bullet points really brings it all together. I like it, and I think it's only fair I adapt some of it here:

Bundling Wraps:
It's okay for things to be OP, if it takes a lot of effort to get. Most, if not all bosses work under this premise:

• Negating rain is fairly nice, but usually requires you to kill Deerclops to do so most efficiently.
• Having a constant heat source is pretty useful, but requires you to kill Dragonfly.
• Nullifying damage every 5 seconds is actually great, but requires you to kill the Ancient Fuelweaver.
• Hitting 600 damage makes a neat thumbnail and nerf-warly argument, but you still need a volt goat horn, consistent pepper farming and rain, per fight.

Now, what makes bundling wrap OP is one simple thing. They don't depend upon Boss Drops.
Having the ability to store food indefinitely is okay
Being able to craft said item with bee-drops, isn't.

Ez Fix: Make recipe global, but require Royal Jelly. That makes players have to choose between Jellybeans or more Wraps every fight.
(also yeah, Gift Wraps for Klaus.)

 

[the_revenant]

2 hours ago, AdventZen said:

I'd like to mention, first of all, that your post has amazing flow and it's delightful to read, the way you use font sizes and bullet points really brings it all together. I like it, and I think it's only fair I adapt some of it here:

Bundling Wraps:
It's okay for things to be OP, if it takes a lot of effort to get. Most, if not all bosses work under this premise:

• Negating rain is fairly nice, but usually requires you to kill Deerclops to do so most efficiently.
• Having a constant heat source is pretty useful, but requires you to kill Dragonfly.
• Nullifying damage every 5 seconds is actually great, but requires you to kill the Ancient Fuelweaver.
• Hitting 600 damage makes a neat thumbnail and nerf-warly argument, but you still need a volt goat horn, consistent pepper farming and rain, per fight.

Now, what makes bundling wrap OP is one simple thing. They don't depend upon Boss Drops.
Having the ability to store food indefinitely is okay
Being able to craft said item with bee-drops, isn't.

Ez Fix: Make recipe global, but require Royal Jelly. That makes players have to choose between Jellybeans or more Wraps every fight.
(also yeah, Gift Wraps for Klaus.)

 

Thank you for being so positive. Your suggestion is amazing. With the exception that it doesn't make sense using royal jelly to craft a paper.
But your idea gave me another idea. 

How about this:
> Klaus no longer drop wax papers.

> Bee wax is no longer a craftable item with honeycombs, but a boss drop (bee queen).

> Bee queen now drops 6-7 royal jelly, 1 honeycomb (just so it doesn't become extinct in public servers), a blueprint AND 1-2 bee waxes.

Would that be a good patch? We keep the bundling wrap as it is (since most of you seem to like it) but now it becomes more of a luxury item.

Just like you need to kill Bearger and use 3 gears to craft an insulated pack, you'd need to kill bee queen every 20 days to get 1-2  bee waxes.

Would everyone be happy with this?

[Sinister_Fang]

30 minutes ago, the_revenant said:

Would everyone be happy with this?

No. Someone, somewhere isn't going to be happy with any changes made to anything.

(Don't take this post seriously. It's just a stupid, sarcastic joke)

[Rogueagent01]

Seeing as the one thing i enjoy doing anymore in this game is building a chest for every single food item, collecting/making said items then storing and labelling each individual chest i'd have to say no to any ideas that change the bundling wraps. Many of these ideas would take away the fun part for me, so i'm against it. And the weird part is i just enjoy storing all the food i rarely ever eat out of those chests, i just want the ability to end hunger in the Constant .

And when i find a server that i deem is appropriate for Longterm use or Mega-basing they tend to have very few Beehives anyway. I put a premium on Wormholes and Cave Entrances over Beehives.

[Cpt. KatKit]

I wonder if this post would exist if creatures of the same type fought for a couple of attacks instead of fighting to their death.. Pig and bunnies massacring each other is just dumb. Same with a bird in a bird cage producing a million egg daily. What exactly are those balanced for? Servers with a million player in them eating nonstop?

[MondayNight]

9 hours ago, Cpt. KatKit said:

What exactly are those balanced for? Servers with a million player in them eating nonstop?

Played pubs lately, the official Klei variety madness?!

Had a wild Wolf suddenly appear naked and hungry, wimpy-style, in your "baisu" to merely empty your fridge le next seconds, eating raw the separate ingredients till Mighty, then meme-ing or running around with all loot they found in said "baisu", because the fine advice of "EdgyMick told me I iz suppose to be Migty all time!"?! Or some rugged WX stumbling upon your gears chest, gulping all-in-1-go to die moments later via Darkness in a forgotten corner of map - also taking last bits of food you amassed post Wolf's famished-visit? Scrawny Webber munching raw MM from fridge minutes later after "werz bais, I die herz pls bais BAIS?!"? Random Experimental-Chef Warly making loads of Monster Tartare and Wet Goop, then die of Shadows? Willy munching solely Monster Lasagnas (cause was the one dish they knew to make) much?! (spoiler below for a pub, 2 irl days ago)

Spoiler

Willy: "Mmm.. Monster Lasagna - exactly what the good ol' doctor Max recommended when you're below 20 HP!"

Yeah... Pubs are pure insanity, heh. And one needs all food (healing and, oh Lordy, all help) one can muster

[the_revenant]

Yeah I understand the point of view of those who like bundles, even though I don't agree. 

I don't think it would be such a problem to remove the bee wax from the crafting tab though.

Just because some worlds have a ridiculous amount of killer beehives. 

Bee queen dropping 1 honeycomb and 1 bee wax would balance that I think.

The honeycomb just to make sure bees don't go extinct or to be used in the crockpot if they start to accumulate, and the bee wax to craft one bundling wrap per boss fight.

This way the item continues to serve the same purpose but become less trivial and more rewarding to get. You do have to fight Bearger and spend 3 gears to get the Insulated pack. Don't know why it should be different for Bee Queen. Yeah it's harder to kill, but the drop is way better, she spawns every 20 days and people cheese her anyway.