We need to discuss bundling wraps. Again…

[the_revenant]

Hello DST Community! Let me start this by saying that, despite having barely any posts under this account, I have nearly 10k hours in this game (I do have a life, I swear). So please don't dismiss this post before reading at least a few lines.

Ok, now that that's out of the way...

First of all, I wanna start on a positive note by thanking Klei for buffing the insulated pack. That was very needed.

I think the insulated pack got a nice boost and now it feels like a viable option.

It's a natural upgrade to the backpack now, although I feel like it needs to be either no longer flammable or cheaper (2 gears perhaps, or 1). 

I really like that, even with the buff, it didn't affect the piggyback, which is good. Both have its pros and cons.

In comparison to the piggyback, it has less slots and is considerably more expensive, but preserves food and doesn't slow you down.

It is also not a substitute to the ice box (despite being basically a portable ice box) or ice chester, since it can't preserve ice nor cool down a thermal stone.

To sum up, it was a great revisit to an old item and a simple and effective tweak by Klei. Props.

 

Bundling Wraps

Ok, now getting onto the main subject of this post: Bundling wraps. Why not revisit and tweak them too?

I’m aware that this is a very controversial item (easily the most controversial mechanic currently, maybe even more than disease). Some people love them, some people hate them. The challenge here is to find a middle ground where everyone is happy.

I would appreciate if you could take the time to read all of it, and then help one another brainstorm a solution to this. Throughout your reading, just please bear in mind that these are just my ideas (actually they are not even 100% mine), and the main purpose of this is to discuss the subject and not enforce my opinion on anybody. Let's begin.

 

Balancing the Bundling Wrap

I would say that most people think that a possible rebalance should be based on giving durability to the wax paper or make the bundle recipe more expensive (2 honeycombs or whatever). But I believe there are better options. Here are some ideas for a patch:

• 1. Klaus

This is essential. Klaus' wax papers must come undone when unwrapped. The abundance of wax papers is one of the reasons this item is overpowered. Alternatively, Klaus could drop his loot in the form of gift wraps from Winter’s Feast (more suitable for the xmas theme even) that also come undone when unwrapped.

•  2. Tweaking the current Bundling Wrap

The current bundling wrap would no longer halt food spoilage completely but food inside of it would spoil more slowly, although a bit worse than an icebox or insulate pack (25% as opposed to 50%). Maybe also change the recipe to 2 or 3 ropes instead of 1.

This type of bundle is good to be used on the go.

•  3. The Icy Bundling Wrap

Now the main part. We could add a new type of bundle in the game. Let's call it Icy Bundling Wrap (I'm not very creative, don't judge me). This new kind of bundling wrap has a different recipe. My suggestion would be 5 ice and 3 ropes. I heard this idea from a French streamer named Frodeur.

Notice the key part: it costs ice.

This type of bundle is the one that will stop food spoilage completely. It's a good item for, say, preserve lightbulbs, some mushrooms for your mushroom planters, or your good old pierogies for boss fights. It can’t wrap ice though, for obvious reasons.

This way, it won't be the most viable option for nomad style or long trips, since we probably won't be able to wrap it back due to lack of ice (probably more viable in winter). So this item is more suitable for stocking food in your base and not on the go.

Additionally, we can predict beforehand that unwrapping the wrong bundle and lose 5 ice is probably going to be an inconvenience since we can't inspect bundles to see what's inside (also an inconvenience). I would like to know if anyone has a suggestion here.

• 4. Bee Queen

Bee Queen would be similar to Toadstool. It can either drop a blueprint for the regular wrap or the icy wrap.

 

There you have it. That's basically it.

In my humble opinion, this item just can't be the way it is currently. It breaks the game. It is too cheap (costs literally one rope) considering the huge benefit it provides in the form of infinite food. However, the idea itself is not necessarily bad and could be tweaked for the better. The situation with bundles is quite similar to the Celestial Portal: good idea, but poorly balanced. But the portal is subject for a whole different post.
I would like to know if you guys like my suggestions and also post yours. 

 

----------------- From this point on, I’m mentioning stuff that is off topic (but not really). U can stop reading here if you want. -----------------

 

To finish this post, I just want to discuss the Wolfgang problem, cause I feel like both issues are related. People say that Wolfgang needs a nerf, but he was never this huge problem before. He became a problem after bundles, because he can be constantly well fed and his main drawback (wimpy form) is never an issue anymore.

The Wolfgang situation got worse when people realized you could just use the moon idol, swap to Warly, season your whole bundle of kabobs, swap back to Wolf and profit.

So I just want to point out that the problem is not Wolfgang, but rather unbalanced mechanics that came afterwards. I beg you Klei, don't nerf him drastically, it would be a mistake.

The issue is not him. He is one of the characters that need the least amount of rework, if any. Maybe increase the sanity drain so he also has to worry about shadows during fights, and call it a day. His design is solid and his purpose in the game is clear. Wolf is not the only one affected by the current bundle system. For instance, tell me one downside of Wigfrid at the moment? Her main issue was low hunger meter and having a harder time in the caves. That no longer applies. She had to carry a good amount of meatballs or whatever with her for longer trips, which could eventually go stale. Well, not anymore.

It's the same as saying automatic food farming is an issue. I used to say that too, until I realized that it was never THIS big of an issue before the wrap came about. Of course bunny farm is op, but it would be way less op (and it was) if all of that food turned into rot eventually. Yes you can feed stale eggs to bird and basically get a fresh one back and have infinite eggs (which should also be fixed btw, in my eyes), but it doesn't even compare to bundles.

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So there you have it. I think the community really needs to once again discuss this controversial mechanic that shakes the core identity of the game which still is (or should be, in my view) to not starve.

[splorange]

i think they’re fine

[cantbeatdaboss]

I'll have you know bundling wraps are an integral part to this game.  Removing them would mean that I can't camp in the ruins as Wick while watching Edgy Rick.  Some people are just simply not smart enough to comprehend how balanced they are.

[Zeklo]

6 minutes ago, the_revenant said:

easily the most controversial mechanic currently

Celestial Portal says hi.

[Pedro cc]

good luck trying to get enough wax pappers in a multiplayer server
bee boxes> bunny farms 

[Owlrust]

I think a small change would be ok, but nothing too big tbh. This is really only an issue for veteran players who can take out Bee Queen reliably. Most underdog players can barely get to that point, let alone beat her and get the blueprint. I can't really see myself using something that I would not benefit that much from, let alone making the fight less worthwhile in the meantime. I think a good change (if one is needed at all) would be for only perishable items to be stored in them, and have them perish 80-90% slower. Enough so that they can still go stale or rot if you're careless, but good enough to find viable.

[RANT WARNING]

I am (admittedly) known for constantly defending newer players in debates of reworks and new challenges/ obstacles because I get worried for the future of DS and the new players that join in; primarily because of one thing that I have forgotten, and I think many have. The feeling and experience of playing Don't Starve in general. When I was little, I didn't have many friends because of how often my family moved; as a result I found a love for doing stuff on my own. When I heard of "Don't Starve", I thought it was the coolest thing ever. I didn't care about how my base looked, the challenge of enemies and/or mechanics. Frankly..I just had wide-eyed fun whenever something new in the game popped up (like "Hungry for your Hunger or "Underground"), which was surprising to me every single time. I always checked in for that one new super awesome mod on the workshop that changed everything completely! And this went on for years...But as I got older, my priorities changed, and my mentality too; I lost the concept of just having fun no matter what and became obsessed with the concept of "winning". Making better bases, understanding ALL the mechanics, and not "losing". It then became, and still is, no more exciting than a game of say...ranked Overwatch matches. Losing it's glow in my mind, I still play today because I'm still not passed the idea of winning. I understand that my concept of fun is different from the concept of fun for others, and vice versa; but I can't shake that feeling that some other kid or person out there might have the same mentality as I once did, only to either get shot down or lose interest in the game because of their skill level. There's no shortcuts or rainbows from here on out, we have what we have and the most that will change is new stuff being added to it, until one day...People forget about it.  

Sorry for the rant.   

[the_revenant]

48 minutes ago, Pedrito said:

good luck trying to get enough wax pappers in a multiplayer server
bee boxes> bunny farms 

What are we talking about here That wasn't clear to me.

Publics?
Public survival servers barely last long enough to have players killing bee queen.

Or are you talking about any multiplayer server in general? Don't forget that honeycombs are renewable. You get 1-2 honeycombs from bee queen and that is enough, considering how good of an item they are. And she also respawns every 20 days.

[Pedro cc]

Quote

What are we talking about here That wasn't clear for me.

Publics?
Public survival servers barely last long enough to have players killing bee queen.

Or are you talking about any multiplayer server in general? Don't forget that honeycombs are renewable. You get 1-2 honeycombs from bee queen and that is enough, considering how good of an item they are. And she also respawns every 20 days.

in a long term world, wax papper become one of the most valuable items. yes i was talking about a private multiplayer server. making the bundling warp not negate the spoileage would make them useless. A good nerf would be require more ropes to craft a bundling warp, but at the same time would be more tedious to unwarp some food and rebundle it. in conclusion i disagree in nerfing the bundling wrap

and about the bee box , i say that a single bee box can produce more food in one day that a bunny hutch(and is less tedious to do that making bunny men kill themselves)

[the_revenant]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

5

4 minutes ago, Owlrus98 said:

I think a small change would be ok, but nothing too big tbh. This is really only an issue for veteran players who can take out Bee Queen reliably. Most underdog players can barely get to that point, let alone beat her and get the blueprint. I can't really see myself using something that I would not benefit that much from, let alone making the fight less worthwhile in the meantime. I think a good change (if one is needed at all) would be for only perishable items to be stored in them, and have them perish 80-90% slower. Enough so that they can still go stale or rot if you're careless, but good enough to find viable.

[RANT WARNING]

I am (admittedly) known for constantly defending newer players in debates of reworks and new challenges/ obstacles because I get worried for the future of DS and the new players that join in; primarily because of one thing that I have forgotten, and I think many have. The feeling and experience of playing Don't Starve in general. When I was little, I didn't have many friends because of how often my family moved; as a result I found a love for doing stuff on my own. When I heard of "Don't Starve", I thought it was the coolest thing ever. I didn't care about how my base looked, the challenge of enemies and/or mechanics. Frankly..I just had wide-eyed fun whenever something new in the game popped up (like "Hungry for your Hunger or "Underground"), which was surprising to me every single time. I always checked in for that one new super awesome mod on the workshop that changed everything completely! And this went on for years...But as I got older, my priorities changed, and my mentality too; I lost the concept of just having fun no matter what and became obsessed with the concept of "winning". Making better bases, understanding ALL the mechanics, and not "losing". It then became, and still is, no more exciting than a game of say...ranked Overwatch matches. Losing it's glow in my mind, I still play today because I'm still not passed the idea of winning. I understand that my concept of fun is different from the concept of fun for others, and vice versa; but I can't shake that feeling that some other kid or person out there might have the same mentality as I once did, only to either get shot down or lose interest in the game because of their skill level. There's no shortcuts or rainbows from here on out, we have what we have and the most that will change is new stuff being added to it, until one day...People forget about it.  

Sorry for the rant.   

Look, I've been a noob before too, we all have. I know how frustrating it can be. However, with all due respect, I think you are overreacting a little bit here. The game was fine for beginners before bundles and would continue to be if it ever gets reworked,  
I'm having a hard time to understand your point. Can you elaborate more.
I believe it wouldn't affect new players by any means. Newcomers have no idea what Bee Queen is, let alone that she drops a blueprint. By the time they discover this, they are already in the process of trying to learn the fight. And they will die many times. I play fighting games a lot (Street Fighter) and the only way to get good is by losing. There's no other way. You have to endure frustration and persevere. Such is life.

I don't understand why some people here in the forums look down on so-called "veteran players". Like, we've being playing the game for a long time. And there's no way to discover everything in this game. I learn something new every now and then. So I'm not trying to be elitist here. I hope that's clear
Also, I think it's not very smart of Klei to completely ignore a good portion of their player base. . 

[CossonWool]

 

1 hour ago, Zeklo said:

1 hour ago, the_revenant said:

easily the most controversial mechanic currently

Celestial Portal says hi.

Old threads about catapults and volt goat jelly

[the_revenant]

 

 

 

 

2

17 minutes ago, Pedrito said:

in a long term world, wax papper become one of the most valuable items.

no it doesnt. klaus says hi.

 

 

 

 

 

2

18 minutes ago, Pedrito said:

and about the bee box , i say that a single bee box can produce more food in one day that a bunny hutch(and is less tedious to do that making bunny men kill themselves)

hm, I disagree again. One bee box doesn't even come close to a bunny farm. 

[Terra_Zina]

12 minutes ago, CossonWool said:

1 hour ago, Zeklo said:

1 hour ago, the_revenant said:

easily the most controversial mechanic currently

Celestial Portal says hi.

Old threads about catapults and volt goat jelly

One word

Insanity

[Pedro cc]

42 minutes ago, CossonWool said:

 

Old threads about catapults and volt goat jelly
 

ancient threads about wickerbottom

[h2mk]

15 minutes ago, Pedrito said:

ancient threads about wickerbottom

prehistoric threads about fire farms

[Bird Up]

You say it's broken because it gives infinite food. it actually just gives infinite preservation of food. You still have to get the food, therefore it's not even infinite, just infinite pause on spoil time until you need to eat it. But even the concept of infinite food isn't necessarily broken. Food has always been easy to manage with various farms once you get your base set up, bundling wrap or not doesn't change this. Canceling spoilage isn't a very interesting mechanic for me, I just use the wraps as a small backpack when I need to carry more things and I don't have chester.

What I like about bundling wrap is that it's actually a boss item that feels it's worth getting. The game needs more of this - not less. I've never seen anyone rush toadstool because they needed that sweet, sweet toadstool loot. doesn't happen.

[Maxposting]

What happened? did @the_revenant have a massive stroke?

[the_revenant]

7 minutes ago, __IvoCZE__ said:

What happened? did @the_revenant have a massive stroke?

Lol i'm just as confused as you. I have no idea what happened there.

[CameoAppearance]

Of the points you listed, I think switching Klaus's loot to be wrapped gifts instead of bundled supplies year-round would be the most natural fit, as it would prevent people from getting an infinite supply of bundling wraps. You do have to defeat the Bee Queen several times in order for every player on a large server to be able to use the bundling wrap more than once, but while that's not a trivial task it's not harder than killing Klaus or the Dragonfly. (The Bee Queen does drop honeycombs, and in Endless Mode I think beehives can regenerate, but these are still slower sources than Klaus's bundled supplies and the latter isn't applicable to servers on completely default settings.)

It really is a huge indirect boost for Wolfgang to have an abundant personal supply of items that can keep food preserved indefinitely, but I don't think the Bundling Wrap item itself is the problem; when wax paper and/or bundling wrap blueprints are scarce, it's fine because you need to prioritise what to use it on and possibly funnel it through one of like three players who have the recipe. It only becomes an issue when all the players have a dozen of the dang things each. If Wolfgang can cook up 50 meatballs from ice and monster meat and steadily eat his way through them to stay in mighty form without worrying about spoilage at all because he's keeping them bundled between meals, that kind of is a problem! But the only reason why he can do that is because he has such easy access to bundling wraps that nobody's concerned they might need that wrap for something more important than Wolfgang's appetite.

[the_revenant]

47 minutes ago, CameoAppearance said:

Of the points you listed, I think switching Klaus's loot to be wrapped gifts instead of bundled supplies year-round would be the most natural fit, as it would prevent people from getting an infinite supply of bundling wraps. You do have to defeat the Bee Queen several times in order for every player on a large server to be able to use the bundling wrap more than once, but while that's not a trivial task it's not harder than killing Klaus or the Dragonfly. (The Bee Queen does drop honeycombs, and in Endless Mode I think beehives can regenerate, but these are still slower sources than Klaus's bundled supplies and the latter isn't applicable to servers on completely default settings.)

It really is a huge indirect boost for Wolfgang to have an abundant personal supply of items that can keep food preserved indefinitely, but I don't think the Bundling Wrap item itself is the problem; when wax paper and/or bundling wrap blueprints are scarce, it's fine because you need to prioritise what to use it on and possibly funnel it through one of like three players who have the recipe. It only becomes an issue when all the players have a dozen of the dang things each. If Wolfgang can cook up 50 meatballs from ice and monster meat and steadily eat his way through them to stay in mighty form without worrying about spoilage at all because he's keeping them bundled between meals, that kind of is a problem! But the only reason why he can do that is because he has such easy access to bundling wraps that nobody's concerned they might need that wrap for something more important than Wolfgang's appetite.

You raise some good points. Honestly, I would be satisfied if Klaus is changed and nothing more. Not completely, but almost.

What do you suggest with Wolfgang then? Nerf him somehow? I don't think that would work well. They can nerf his buff via Warly's meals, but that's about it I guess. Nerfing Wolfgang a lot (his base damage or the hunger drain in his basic form, for example) would only make him a less viable option for the average player and also won't affect veterans because anything regarding food/hunger (and also healing) is basically irrelevant as long as bundles are abundant. 

World generation plays a big part on this as well. Some worlds have huge killer bee fields and others barely have any regular bee hive.

[Maxposting]

Okay let's do the m a t h

Klaus sack drops 4 bundle wraps with a 100% chance - therefore 4 Wax papers BUT Klaus' sack spawns only once a year

Bee Queen drops 1-2 honeycombs - respawns per 20 days ( 3.5something spawns per year in total but we will call it a 3 )

Bee Queen has a 50% chance to drop the 2nd honeycomb, paired with 3 spawns gives us 3-6 honeycombs per year, with 3 honeycombs having 12.5% to drop and 6 honeycombs having 12.5% too

That gives us that Bee Queen has 87.5% chance to drop 4 or more honeycombs per year, rendering her the more hazardous source of honeycombs with bigger potential outcome than Klaus with a fixed outcome, and with Klaus killed, we will have 7 to 10 honeycombs per year.

[the_revenant]

2 minutes ago, __IvoCZE__ said:

Okay let's do the m a t h

Klaus sack drops 4 bundle wraps with a 100% chance - therefore 4 Wax papers BUT Klaus' sack spawns only once a year

Bee Queen drops 1-2 honeycombs - respawns per 20 days ( 3.5something spawns per year in total but we will call it a 3 )

Bee Queen has a 50% chance to drop the 2nd honeycomb, paired with 3 spawns gives us 3-6 honeycombs per year, with 3 honeycombs having 12.5% to drop and 6 honeycombs having 12.5% too

That gives us that Bee Queen has 87.5% chance to drop 4 or more honeycombs per year, rendering her the more hazardous source of honeycombs with bigger potential outcome than Klaus with a fixed outcome, and with Klaus killed, we will have 7 to 10 honeycombs per year.

I like your post. Putting it in numbers helps a lot. Like I said, removing the bundles from Klaus would balance it a lot already. Also would make killing BQ even more important and the bundling wrap sort of a luxury item.
The only problem is: what about the servers that generate a ridiculous amount of killer bee hives?

[CameoAppearance]

9 minutes ago, the_revenant said:

What do you suggest with Wolfgang then? Nerf him somehow? I don't think that would work well. They can nerf his buff via Warly's meals, but that's about it I guess. Nerfing Wolfgang a lot (his base damage or the hunger drain in his basic form, for example) would only make him a less viable option for the average player and also won't affect veterans because anything regarding food/hunger (and also healing) healing is basically irrelevant as long as bundles are present. 

Honestly I have no idea what to do with Wolfgang, balancewise. I think he's 95% fine the way he is, but the remaining 5% is absurd stuff; he was already powerful when at full mightiness with a stack of blowdarts but if you add spicy jelly to that it just gets insane. All I can come up with is lowering his max mightiness damage multiplier and making his damage increase on a curve instead of linearly, which would make his damage output less stupid during boss fights without making him noticeably worse at fighting when he's in between the mighty threshold and his hunger cap (i.e. most other occasions, if you don't have an infinite supply of eternal meatballs).

That could still be a problem for intermediate Wolfgang players, though, who play with a group of people who work together but don't use optimal strategy for everything.

[the_revenant]

 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, CameoAppearance said:

making his damage increase on a curve instead of linearly, which would make his damage output less stupid during boss fights without making him noticeably worse at fighting when he's in between the mighty threshold and his hunger cap 

This could work I guess

 

 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, CameoAppearance said:

 (i.e. most other occasions, if you don't have an infinite supply of eternal meatballs).

.Precisely. The issue with him will persist for as long as the wraps are abundant and relatively easy to get. He can kill Kaus in one winter and get 4 wax papers and from that point on he is in god mode. 

[Ezaroth]

Maybe reduce the slots from 4 to 1?

[SinancoTheBest]

The Klaus idea is cool, I think he should drop Winter's Feast gift wraps, his gifts are already very rewarding, why give wax papers on top? This would help slow down the acquisition of wraps in the server as Honeycombs are only semi-renewable and earlier ones are better spent on Bee Boxes.