Big issue with maps without Slime Biome

[Nitroturtle]

Just now, avc15 said:

That's a false dilemma: with ~2-3 tons of steel or so you can build every bit of heat resistant machinery you need until rockets.

Scrapping a 30 hour game because you prefer starting over to making a refinery is a little irrational.

 

I think part of the issue with getting this addressed is that people keep conflating the issues with this map.

Let me be clear here.

Not having access to gold amalgam is fine.  Steel is a suitable, albeit more difficult to achieve, replacement.

Not having access to refined gold means you have to ranch pufts, which you can only get from the printing pod.  I wouldn't say this is "fine" but it's workable.

Not having access to refined gold also means you can never make supercoolant.  <-- this is the one many people feel is an issue.

[SakuraKoi]

13 minutes ago, avc15 said:

Klei says, yeah, that's what we were planning for with some worlds that lack the slime biome.

Context. It is very importante.

Certain worlds lacking certain biomes is one thing, that's what Ipsquiggle addressed.

Lacking certain resources that result in lacking other resources, that's what is primarily talked about here.

 

As friendly reminder: 

1. no Wolframite means no Thermium
2. no Gold means no Super Coolant (Oxylite can still be gotten)
3. no Reed Fiber means no Insulation and Exosuits (nobody wants carpet tiles anyway but paintings may also be a point of concern)

In regards to:

1. there really is no solution, one can only be lucky with planets or traits, but one only misses out on +900°C overheat temperature and only has +500°C. Three worlds are affected (Aridio, Verdante, Oasisse)
2. there really is no solution, one can only be lucky with planets or random geysers, one sure misses out with that one. Two worlds are affected (Arboria and the Badlands)
3. one can get seeds and Drecko to get started through care packages, no world is actually affected since Arboria and the Badlands have Drecko while Rime has the Cold Marsh

So, what one has to do is:

1. argue that Thermium is essential and suggest to a) make Glimmering Planet a certain spawn or b)... beats me
2. argue that Super Coolant is essential and suggest to a) make the Gilded Asteroid a certain spawn, b) allow any refined metal (may be a quite problematic) or c) implement a certain gold volcano somehow (don't ask me how)
3. no need to argue~

[isendel11]

Honestly, when tomorrow the game comes out Arboria will be my asteroid of choice for my 1k+ cycles base. I tried them all in the launch beta and I feel the lack of slime biome, with everything it implicates, is going to be the most fun for me, where a lot of the fun involved is straying from my usual builds and designs to adapt to the changes, mostly the lack of gold amalgam. I will make sure to roll a map with a gold volcano though, which IMO should be made a guaranteed spawn in maps without slime to solve any issue. The lack of gold amalgam is a fun challenge, but for the late game a gold volcano is rather needed (again IMO obviously, everyone has fun in a different way).

[avc15]

6 minutes ago, SakuraKoi said:

Context. It is very importante.

Yes, it is. Follow the link to that bug report that I posted. A person makes a bug report that they can't manufacture oxylite without swamp biomes. Klei's response is pretty direct. Just conveying information.

Now. Take everything I say in a very even tone like I'm just communicating information. There's no emotion in my voice. Even if I object to somebody else's reasoning.

but since I can see that I'm stirring something here, I will step off to the left.

[miauly]

16 minutes ago, avc15 said:

Follow the link to that bug report that I posted. A person makes a bug report that they can't manufacture oxylite without swamp biomes.

Bug report is mentioning only +overheat. Not oxylite, that has another route to be obtained, and, most importantly, not super coolant or thermium. So if we go by the facts, we can't really stretch Klei's response made to +overheat issue (countered by steel obviously) to imply that they have the same view of space materials being unobtainable issue.

[camelot]

I think it would be better to change the oxylite and super coolant recipe to accept more metals (copper and aluminium, not iron and lead) or add gold/tungsten in meteor shower. Similar to atmo suit, only accept 1 certain metal doesn't make much sense

[stoeberhai]

39 minutes ago, avc15 said:

That's a false dilemma: with ~2-3 tons of steel or so you can build every bit of heat resistant machinery you need until rockets.

Scrapping a 30 hour game because you prefer starting over to making a refinery is a little irrational.

 

and that's a false assumption. i didn't restart because of steel. in fact i had plenty of it; also two working petroleum rockets, niobium, isoresin and fullerene. even gold. what i didn't have: wolframite.

so it simply felt like a dead-end.

however, you can do plenty of stuff with steel, thats true.

[flapee]

 

23 minutes ago, stoeberhai said:

what i didn't have: wolframite.

yeah, they say, melt insulation to get thungsten 

[stoeberhai]

9 minutes ago, camelot said:

I think it would be better to change the oxylite and super coolant recipe to accept more metals (copper and aluminium, not iron and lead) or add gold/tungsten in meteor shower. Similar to atmo suit, only accept 1 certain metal doesn't make much sense

i think having a specific requirement for certain processes is a great way to implement

- flavor, importance and usefulness to the single resources and
- struggles/difficulties/objectives to the game.

having to hunt for specific resources makes me want to explore the planet and space.

[Vampenguin]

I've seen suggestions to allow iron to be used as a substitute for gold in the Oxylite Refinery, but how about allowing it to use steel instead? That might be a better balance since iron is so readily available. The same substitute could be used in the Molecular Forge to get super coolant when gold isn't available.

[beowulf2010]

13 minutes ago, Vampenguin said:

I've seen suggestions to allow iron to be used as a substitute for gold in the Oxylite Refinery, but how about allowing it to use steel instead? That might be a better balance since iron is so readily available. The same substitute could be used in the Molecular Forge to get super coolant when gold isn't available.

If they add recipes for oxylite, iron would be my absolute last choice as iron and oxygen make iron oxide, aka rust. 

It would make much better sense for copper and aluminum for 2 reasons. First, these are both available in the starter biomes and second, they both oxidize with protective patinas instead of disintegrating like iron. 

[wronny]

1 hour ago, avc15 said:

A person makes a bug report that they can't manufacture oxylite without swamp biomes. Klei's response is pretty direct. Just conveying information.

The bug report only mentions the difficulty caused by the lack of gold amalgam in regards to +overheat temp, which is an absolute non-issue. Steel can fill that role and there are means to ensure buildings will not reach their normal overheat temperature (75°C, 90°C, ...) by using automation, cooling or both. So closing that particular issue is absolutely fine.

The lack of Gold/Pufts for Oxylite production falls into the same category. This is something that can be worked around, although in ways some do not consider the most fun, to put it mildly: Extending the steam rocket phase and going directly for LOX (Thermo Regulator) or relying on the printing pod for puft ranching.

The lack of Gold for Super Coolant production (and thus LH2) and the lack of Wolframite for its melting point and Thermium are different as there are no direct replacements for these.

57 minutes ago, camelot said:

I think it would be better to change the oxylite and super coolant recipe to accept more metals

Adding Squaky Pufts to the caustic biome could also work for oxylite. I'd rather not have multiple variants of the super coolant recipe, as it pollutes the recipe UI. Replacing the gold in the Super Coolant recipe with another material (e.g. Isoresin, Niobium or Abyssalite) seems preferable.

 

A wider range of Metal / Metal Ore meteors seems like the most elegant solution, though.

 

 

[BaloneyOs]

Lack of gold amalgam can be designed around. You really don't need steel to make hot facilities work for a very long time. For this the alternatives are plentiful and creative.

On the other hand the alternative to oxylite is to just... ranch pufts. That's your only option. I don't think people care as much about how much pufts output as they care about how much of a PITA ranching certain critters can be and puft ranching is still in an atrocious state. This side of it feels much more restrictive to gameplay since it funnels you into a potentially frustrating mechanic as the sole option.

For supercoolant at least there's a decent chance to roll a destination with gold. The puny rocket rewards are a different can of worms though.

[flapee]

1 minute ago, BaloneyOs said:

You really don't need steel to make hot facilities work for a very long time

care to share with the rest of the class ?

[MeesterButts]

Hmmmmm where have I seen this post before? Oh yes. Every other day.

[Nitroturtle]

1 hour ago, BaloneyOs said:

For supercoolant at least there's a decent chance to roll a destination with gold. The puny rocket rewards are a different can of worms though.

Yeah I mean, there's a chance, but think about how far through the map you are before you find out if you're lucky enough to be able to make the best cooling liquid in the game.  I feel like you shouldn't have to use debug mode to find this stuff beforehand.

[nivodeus]

i know it's a bit of stretch but if you plan on playing on map without slime biome, maybe you can choose the geoactive trait, which hopefully give gold volcano, and at least alleviate the problem for now. Or simple solution would be for an asteroid without slime biome to have at least one guaranted buried gold volcano and I think that should do it. 

I never played to the point i need to use supercoolant, since by that point my base usually already self sustainable and I get bored waiting for the rocket or get burned with the game and will need to cool down and play another game. Or by that time I already stop playing for a while due to work or anything and forget what needs to be maintained anymore. 

[wronny]

1 hour ago, BaloneyOs said:

For supercoolant at least there's a decent chance to roll a destination with gold. The puny rocket rewards are a different can of worms though.

I have yet to see an arboria / the badlands starmap that has the Gilded Asteroid within the range of a petroleum-lox cargo rocket (<= 110,000 km). Out of the couple dozen starmaps I looked at, only about 20% had a Gilded Asteroid to begin with. Those that did, had them at 130,000 km or further out. I have seen the Helium Giant (w/ LH2) at 100,000km fairly regularly, though - but still more than just a couple seeds without it.

While the Glimmering Planet (Wolframite, Tungsten) seems to be one of the more common destinations, this one isn't guaranteed to be present either.

Making the Helium Giant at 100,000km guaranteed and the other two guarenteed to be available at least once at >= 120,000km, would be another way to resolve this issue.

[Miravlix]

I don't understand why people is so into gold machines, learn to cool stuff, it's not that hard.

 

All gold does is delay the amount of time you can play until propper cooled design need to be used, it's a bit silly not to design cooling into the base from the beginning.

[Nitroturtle]

12 minutes ago, Miravlix said:

I don't understand why people is so into gold machines, learn to cool stuff, it's not that hard.

 

All gold does is delay the amount of time you can play until propper cooled design need to be used, it's a bit silly not to design cooling into the base from the beginning.

You may understand better if you take the time to read the entire thread.

[Vampenguin]

3 hours ago, Nitroturtle said:

Yeah I mean, there's a chance, but think about how far through the map you are before you find out if you're lucky enough to be able to make the best cooling liquid in the game.  I feel like you shouldn't have to use debug mode to find this stuff beforehand.

I completely agree. I like to play the game with random seeds so I don't know what I'm getting ahead of time. I guess you could consider it a challenge to play without super coolant when you get to that point. I'd probably just abandon the base, or open up sandbox and give myself some gold (and feel completely justified in doing so) to get around it if the roll was that unlucky.

[BaloneyOs]

6 hours ago, Nitroturtle said:

Yeah I mean, there's a chance, but think about how far through the map you are before you find out if you're lucky enough to be able to make the best cooling liquid in the game.  I feel like you shouldn't have to use debug mode to find this stuff beforehand.

I totally agree with this which is why I've been against that RNG asteroid trait bs. ATM if you want "featured" gold amalgam you'd have to not only roll the geodes trait but roll a gold amalgam geode as well. Even if someone wanted to mod in a refined gold trait they'd still have to waste time rolling it.

 

5 hours ago, wronny said:

I have yet to see an arboria / the badlands starmap that has the Gilded Asteroid within the range of a petroleum-lox cargo rocket (<= 110,000 km). Out of the couple dozen starmaps I looked at, only about 20% had a Gilded Asteroid to begin with. Those that did, had them at 130,000 km or further out. I have seen the Helium Giant (w/ LH2) at 100,000km fairly regularly, though - but still more than just a couple seeds without it.

While the Glimmering Planet (Wolframite, Tungsten) seems to be one of the more common destinations, this one isn't guaranteed to be present either.

Making the Helium Giant at 100,000km guaranteed and the other two guarenteed to be available at least once at >= 120,000km, would be another way to resolve this issue.

Unfortunate. It would be less of an issue if there was more modular choice.

[Xuhybrid]

On 7/28/2019 at 12:38 AM, Lifegrow said:

Love that idea - maybe some separate space debris that have to be put through a crusher (de-amalgaderpinator?) for an occasional 10-25kg of whatever is rare for your chosen start.

That'd be somewhat of a solution to all the bitching and whining that's been on the forums since the new starts were added....  

Yeah because there's no reason to ***** and whine when features of the game aren't available. Let's not forget that they had to buff Pufts AFTER the fact because clearly they hadn't considered the implications of removing gold from the map. I wonder if they'd have buffed them if nobody complained...

8 hours ago, beowulf2010 said:

If they add recipes for oxylite, iron would be my absolute last choice as iron and oxygen make iron oxide, aka rust. 

It would make much better sense for copper and aluminum for 2 reasons. First, these are both available in the starter biomes and second, they both oxidize with protective patinas instead of disintegrating like iron. 

Why does it require metal in the first place?

[beowulf2010]

52 minutes ago, Xuhybrid said:

Why does it require metal in the first place?

Because the recipe needs something more than just oxygen.

Why gold? My guess is that with as non-reactive as it is, gold pairs well with oxygen's volitility for a fictional Philosopher's Stone style item. 

52 minutes ago, Xuhybrid said:

 

 

[Aelfled]

From the description:

 

(Ir₃O₂) Oxylite is a chemical compound that slowly emits breathable Oxygen

 

Since iridium isn't in the game they use gold instead