Power transformer is very user-unfriendly

[Technoincubus]

With PT providing a stable 2 KW wire power it is extremely unfriendly to new players. Because usually what new player will do - he will build a conductive wire from power transformer to a circuit of 2 kW or strap it to aquatuner or refinery, or other building that requires more than 1 kW...and see that PT cannot sustain that wattage. I discovered that PT provides 4 "ticks" of 1 kW power per second, so at max it can sustain 1 kW circuit, but to get it sustain 2 kW conductive wire you have to place a battery after transformer, so PT will fill charge that battery and following circuit could feed on battery's charge.

Battery is charged 4 kW each second and feeds 2 kW to conductive wire. To get it I had to go here to forums and read that PT works exactly that due to "4 ticks" mechanics, I cannot imagine how new players would discover that on their own.

Overall it seems that PT is flawed, isn't it better to make two separate transformers? One 1 kW and other 2 KW or add slider to how much kW it should provide? It should solve all issues with new players understanding its principles and removing this "tick" mechanic and need to place batteries after PT.

[0xFADE]

Just more little game mechanics you learn along the way.  I always used 2 transformers per conductive wire till someone said one transformer will provide enough power if you have a battery on the other end.

[WanderingKid]

6 minutes ago, Technoincubus said:

With PT providing a stable 2 KW wire power it is extremely unfriendly to new players. Because usually what new player will do - he will build a conductive wire from power transformer to a circuit of 2 kW or strap it to aquatuner or refinery, or other building that requires more than 1 kW...and see that PT cannot sustain that wattage.

For a long time, similar to @0xFADE, I used to use two transformers and a conductive wire to feed everything, not realizing the trick of saving myself some heat.  It won't hurt new players to use the same technique for a while either.  At some point they may 'fix' the per tic pulse of the transformer and I'll have to remember how to do it normally again.

[Argelle]

I have to ask. Not sure I get it.

Lot of generators====Heavy watt wire====Transformer------normal wire(?)------(smart?) battery--------aquatuner (consuming 1.2 kW ?!??)

and no overcharge ?

[KittenIsAGeek]

On 6/18/2018 at 11:12 PM, Technoincubus said:

Overall it seems that PT is flawed, isn't it better to make two separate transformers? One 1 kW and other 2 KW or add slider to how much kW it should provide? It should solve all issues with new players understanding its principles and removing this "tick" mechanic and need to place batteries after PT.

The power transformer isn't flawed.  Its an intentional game mechanic.  There were some really strange things that went on during the Power update... anyway, yes, some things about the transformer aren't initially obvious.  Here's what I've learned:

1. Power transformers are capable of sustaining 4kw of power.
2. They can only provide 1kw per tick -- so a transformer by itself will not operate any single machine that draws more than 1kw.
3. Because they can sustain 4kw of power, they can charge a battery AND power a 2kw circuit.
4. Transformers work best with a battery on the 'small' side of the circuit.
5. Smart batteries rock because they can now be linked to the transformer to disconnect it when no power is being used.
6. Transformers generate much more heat than smart batteries, and heat can be a problem -- so turn them off when not being used.

Here's how I currently use them:

Spoiler

Note: Smart batteries set to 50% so the transformers will kick on before there's a brownout.

Generally I set up a circuit for either an application or a load.  Example: The top transformer provides power to two transit tube access points for a combined draw of 1920 watts.  The bottom transformer runs the plumbing for my base's sanitary needs.  I have another transformer further down my power trunk that runs misc. stuff around my base, like research stations and lights, and another one that powers my oxygen supply.

On another of my bases, I have two smart batteries on the oxygen supply circuit -- the second battery switches on a dedicated hydrogen generator so that I will never have a power failure on that circuit.  

On 6/18/2018 at 11:47 PM, Argelle said:

I have to ask. Not sure I get it.

Lot of generators====Heavy watt wire====Transformer------normal wire(?)------(smart?) battery--------aquatuner (consuming 1.2 kW ?!??)

and no overcharge ?

OK.  Generators --> Heavi watt wire --> Transformer --> Conductive wire --> Smart battery  and Aquatuner.  The smart battery buffers the power from the transformer so that the aquatuner can operate.  Normal wire will burn out, but conductive wire can handle up to 2kw, so it'll be fine.  The smart battery can disconnect the transformer once it is charged.  Your generators should each be connected to their own smart battery on the Generator's heavi-watt wire grid.  These smart batteries will turn off the generators and conserve fuel.

 

The Expressive Update changes a lot of things.  The regular transformer will now handle 4kw of power with or without a battery.  A newer, smaller transformer handles only 1kw of power.

 

[Argelle]

Thanks for clarifying this, @KittenIsAGeek

Why not plug-in the aquatuner direct to the heavy watt? (if close enough)

Lot of generators====Heavy watt wire====aquatuner

(that's my beginner set up)

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

On 2018/5/4 at 11:22 PM, R9MX4 said:

The latest test was done in R1, about 1 month ago.

 

With enough power input, a transformer can output max to 5/10kw.

If no battery is connected to the output of a transformer, the transformer can provide 5kw, but the max power of a single machine should be less than 1kw.

If at least one battery is connected to the output of a transformer, the transformer can provide 10kw, and no more single machine power limit.

If no battery is connected to the output, two parallel transformer can provide 10kw, single machine limit 2kw.

Really complex. I agree it.

[KittenIsAGeek]

14 minutes ago, Argelle said:

Thanks for clarifying this, @KittenIsAGeek

Why not plug-in the aquatuner direct to the heavy watt? (if close enough)

Lot of generators====Heavy watt wire====aquatuner

(that's my beginner set up)

You can do that, sure.  There's nothing wrong with your method.  However, heavi-watt wire is expensive in terms of resources.  You need 4 times as much metal to run heavi-watt wire.  Also, it can sometimes be tricky to run heavi-watt wire because of walls and other things.  For example, in the cooling tank setups I've been using, it would be very difficult to get heavi-watt wire to the aquatuner.  This all runs on a single transformer, for example:

Spoiler

Well, OK, the pump sending coolant to my oxygen room is on the oxygen transformer, but... 

The temperature bleeding is because my insulated tiles are sandstone instead of abyssalite or ceramic.

I would have to change my design to power it with heavi-watt wire, or sacrifice thermal isolation.

[BlueLance]

I only use a battery on the opposite end of a transformer with aquatuners, otherwise the rest of it seems to just be ok.

[SackMaggie]

2 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I would have to change my design to power it with heavi-watt wire, or sacrifice thermal isolation.

Do this and you will have full isolation.

Spoiler

 

[Sevio]

4 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

The power transformer isn't flawed.  Its an intentional game mechanic.  There were some really strange things that went on during the Power update... anyway, yes, some things about the transformer aren't initially obvious.  Here's what I've learned:

1. Power transformers are capable of sustaining 4kw of power.
2. They can only provide 1kw per tick -- so a transformer by itself will not operate any single machine that draws more than 1kw.
3. Because they can sustain 4kw of power, they can charge a battery AND power a 2kw circuit.
4. Transformers work best with a battery on the 'small' side of the circuit.
5. Smart batteries rock because they can now be linked to the transformer to disconnect it when no power is being used.
6. Transformers generate much more heat than smart batteries, and heat can be a problem -- so turn them off when not being used.

Here's how I currently use them:

  Hide contents

Note: Smart batteries set to 50% so the transformers will kick on before there's a brownout.

 

This is beautiful, I never really considered the transformer automation port to be all that useful but it clicks so well when hooked directly to a smart battery! Will definitely be using this to save on heat in the future.

[Yunru]

I think the point here is that it's counter-intuitive that it will convert to regular wire powers rather than conductive.

Why not just have it produce 2kw per tick? (Or preferably a sliding scale from 0 to 2kw)

[scaldinghotcarl]

6 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

The power transformer isn't flawed.  Its an intentional game mechanic.  There were some really strange things that went on during the Power update... anyway, yes, some things about the transformer aren't initially obvious.  Here's what I've learned:

1. Power transformers are capable of sustaining 4kw of power.
2. They can only provide 1kw per tick -- so a transformer by itself will not operate any single machine that draws more than 1kw.
3. Because they can sustain 4kw of power, they can charge a battery AND power a 2kw circuit.
4. Transformers work best with a battery on the 'small' side of the circuit.
5. Smart batteries rock because they can now be linked to the transformer to disconnect it when no power is being used.
6. Transformers generate much more heat than smart batteries, and heat can be a problem -- so turn them off when not being used.

Here's how I currently use them:

  Hide contents

Note: Smart batteries set to 50% so the transformers will kick on before there's a brownout.

Generally I set up a circuit for either an application or a load.  Example: The top transformer provides power to two transit tube access points for a combined draw of 1920 watts.  The bottom transformer runs the plumbing for my base's sanitary needs.  I have another transformer further down my power trunk that runs misc. stuff around my base, like research stations and lights, and another one that powers my oxygen supply.

On another of my bases, I have two smart batteries on the oxygen supply circuit -- the second battery switches on a dedicated hydrogen generator so that I will never have a power failure on that circuit.  

OK.  Generators --> Heavi watt wire --> Transformer --> Conductive wire --> Smart battery  and Aquatuner.  The smart battery buffers the power from the transformer so that the aquatuner can operate.  Normal wire will burn out, but conductive wire can handle up to 2kw, so it'll be fine.  The smart battery can disconnect the transformer once it is charged.  Your generators should each be connected to their own smart battery on the Generator's heavi-watt wire grid.  These smart batteries will turn off the generators and conserve fuel.

Damn that's some good intel...but it still isn't a transformer per se. It seems like it's more of a PWM OCPD.

[KittenIsAGeek]

5 hours ago, SackMaggie said:

Do this and you will have full isolation.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I have done that before.  It can definitely be useful in some situations -- especially if I'm close to my main power line.  In the case I posted above, those cooling rooms are a long ways from my power trunk, so isolation was only one of the issues.

2 hours ago, scaldinghotcarl said:

Damn that's some good intel...but it still isn't a transformer per se. It seems like it's more of a PWM OCPD.

Yeah, it doesn't act like a transformer.  For one thing, its 100% efficient at transforming the power.  If it acted like a real transformer, we'd lose 50% of the power right off the top. 

[scaldinghotcarl]

44 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

 so isolation was only one of the issues.

What are we isolating it from? Why did it take damage acting as a floor tile that has a big ass conductor through it?

[KittenIsAGeek]

Just now, scaldinghotcarl said:

What are we isolating it from? Why did it take damage acting as a floor tile that has a big ass conductor through it?

One of the previous posters asked about connecting an aquatuner directly to heavi-watt wire.  I posted a screenshot of my cooling pools where I have two small thermally insulated rooms: One hot one with an aquatuner and one cold one with my coolant.  Running heavi-watt wire in to the cooling rooms would let heat leak out unless I also thermally isolated the heavi-watt wire -- so it was easier to use a transformer and conductive wire to power the system.

[Mlah]

On 6/19/2018 at 3:52 AM, turbonl64 said:

Well iron ore is quite easy to come by. refined iron however has to be produced and 2 out of 4 ways to produce it, lead to mass loss. I personally find paying 4x unrefined metal a better choice overall then the usage of refined metal.

4

If you find iron so easy to come by I don't see why you would be concerned about losing some of it to make refined metal. A temp refinery is pretty easy to set up and gets rid of the mass loss and with steel, you can actually gain mass. The most mass you will lose anyways is half your iron. So even then you would still be better off with refined as you end up only paying 2x the cost instead of 4x meaning you will have more iron left over. Then there is the fact that refined metal is actually renewable, through volcanoes and meteors, while to the best of my knowledge there is no way to make new iron.

[Andz]

On 19.6.2018 at 7:49 AM, KittenIsAGeek said:

The power transformer isn't flawed.  Its an intentional game mechanic. 

That it is intentional does not make it automatically un-flawed.

flaw : an imperfection or weakness and especially one that detracts from the whole or hinders effectiveness

 

Oh boy, its effectiveness is hindered big time if only a handfull of veteran players can explain how it works. And it's not like it is intentionally difficult, it has simply a mechanic that is a) hard to understand b) obscure and c) beyond any (scientific) logic.

[PhailRaptor]

1 minute ago, turbonl64 said:

I do agree however the tooltip should be updated.

While that would help, I don't think the tooltip of the Transformer is the correct place to put an in-dept explanation of Wiring, Transformers, Power Consumption, and Batteries.

[Yunru]

2 hours ago, turbonl64 said:

We so need a tutorial or perhaps even a campaign.

Dunno, that sounds like an exploit...

 

 

On topic: Can anyone explain why it only provides 1k unless there's a battery present, from an in-game narrative?

[BlueLance]

I would love to know this as well, I find it a bit bizarre to have an aquatuner need a battery etc

[Yunru]

That's neither a narrative, nor in game so...

[KittenIsAGeek]

2 hours ago, Yunru said:

On topic: Can anyone explain why it only provides 1k unless there's a battery present, from an in-game narrative?

I can explain why using the mechanics of the game, but not an in-game narrative.  The transformer is able to "hold" 1000J of power.  Each tick, devices check to see if there is enough 'available power' on their circuit to function.  A 960 watt building will see the 1000J is sufficient and will operate, removing 960J from the transformer. Immediately before the next tick, that power is replaced from the "high" side of the circuit.  A 1.2kw building (aquatuner) will see that 1000J is insufficient and will fail to start.  Two 960 watt buildings will alternate their power draws because at each tick, one will see enough power and the next will see only 40J, which is not sufficient.  This is why with a circuit with over 1kw draw will sometimes act odd.

Power is a resource that is treated by the game in much the same way as liquid plumbing or gas pipes: it is "collected" in discrete units and "fed" to the machines that use it.  In the real world, a transformer is a continuous transfer of energy, but to use the same mechanic in a game like ONI would require a complete re-design of the system.

[Lilalaunekuh]

On 19.6.2018 at 12:21 PM, Sevio said:

On 19.6.2018 at 7:49 AM, KittenIsAGeek said:

The power transformer isn't flawed.  Its an intentional game mechanic.  There were some really strange things that went on during the Power update... anyway, yes, some things about the transformer aren't initially obvious.  Here's what I've learned:

1. Power transformers are capable of sustaining 4kw of power.
2. They can only provide 1kw per tick -- so a transformer by itself will not operate any single machine that draws more than 1kw.
3. Because they can sustain 4kw of power, they can charge a battery AND power a 2kw circuit.
4. Transformers work best with a battery on the 'small' side of the circuit.
5. Smart batteries rock because they can now be linked to the transformer to disconnect it when no power is being used.
6. Transformers generate much more heat than smart batteries, and heat can be a problem -- so turn them off when not being used.

Here's how I currently use them:

  Reveal hidden contents

Note: Smart batteries set to 50% so the transformers will kick on before there's a brownout.

 

This is beautiful, I never really considered the transformer automation port to be all that useful but it clicks so well when hooked directly to a smart battery! Will definitely be using this to save on heat in the future.

The transformer automation port had a good intention, but isn´t as useful as you would think. Before we had an automation port on the power tansformer, we used a power shutoff before the transformer.

=> Now keep in mind that everytime you deactivate the automation port of the power transformer you "delete" the stored energy (1KJ)

(The old way is still superior and renders the "new" automation port a bit useless)

[beowulf2010]

6 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

=> Now keep in mind that everytime you deactivate the automation port of the power transformer you "delete" the stored energy (1KJ)

(The old way is still superior and renders the "new" automation port a bit useless)

I dunno. It's only 1KJ. That 2.5 seconds of a Dupe running on a manual generator. 

I tend to feel that that tiny bit of energy "costs" a little bit less than the extra 15Kg of refined metal and 50Kg of raw metal required for the way I build my shutoff transformers. 

This being said, I use both versions depending on if the smart battery is beside or above/below the transformer.