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Thermal averaging poll


Opinion on new thermal change?  

137 members have voted

  1. 1. Which do you prefer?

    • Keep the change, Abyssalite was OP!!
      21
    • Revert the change
      43
    • Try some other method of averaging
      73


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I don't know about "some other method" aside from just using real world heat transfer equations with thickness. Thing is, in real world heat transfer, if one of your materials is highly conductive and the other is highly resistant to heat transfer, the highly resistant material pretty much dominates your whole system's behavior. So, this averaging thing is a bit flawed at the get go - using the lower of the two coefficients was a pretty good approximation for how things work in the real world (except where the two were almost the same)

As someone else stated in the other thread, in the real world you get around this problem by making heat exchangers with very large surface areas. So, klei's simplest solution is to go back to the old way - and just multiply the surface area on radiant pipe by 40, the way they divided it by 40 for insulated tile.

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2 hours ago, Arash70 said:

It's called entropy and I totally support it

This thing makes late-game much more challenging

With their implementation the highest single walled R value you can get is 2. Most R values for real life insulation are 40+. The way the game originally calculated R values actually resulted in lower heat resistance than real life, it's just that game items had lower thermal conductance overall compared to real life values.

It doesn't just make late-game more challenging. It makes it much much harder to REACH late game because the ice biome is melted by the time you dig to it and your Duplicants have baked from nearby Swamp and Caustic biomes leaking heat.

They need to either switch to a geometric average, or revert the change and make radiant pipes a special case (Either multiply whichever conductance is used by an integer to represent the pipe's higher surface area, or force it to use the pipe's conductance rather than the conductance of the medium it is passing through.)

If abyssalite needs a nerf, that needs to be handled in an abyssalite specific change.

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I agree that this overly nerfs how we insulate our base. But I also hate how right now insulated tiles are basically useless. you shouldn't be able to isolate your whole base with one row of abysalite non-insulated tiles. That's too easy. I think the answer lies somewhere in between, where normal tiles may behave like they do now, wheras insulated tiles dramatically slow heat transfer.

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Abyssalite is an unrealistic material. My personal opinion is that abyssalite material should simply not drop as a material, or only drop in such small quantities as to be incredibly rare. This would shift players away from the current meta of "insulate everything with abyssalite" mentality and make insulated tiles/pipes more relevant.

Once this patch is rolled back or fixed, Klei should have a second look at this magical material that makes all other methods of insulation irrelevant. Abyssalite is quite easy to obtain in mass quantities, but it has zero drawbacks for using it in every situation, and all other insulation choices are terrible by comparison.

That having been said, insulated tiles/pipes were working quite well prior to the thermal averaging mess, but over long periods of time I felt they didn't insulate nearly as well as they should. Perhaps they should make insulated tiles made of reed fiber as well as the base material. That will give us some use for the massive amount of fiber that dreckos produce.

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To me, it really show how the asteroid is not generated using in-game physics rules ...

Ice biome is cold, but why? not because of the wheeezewort...

Lava biome is hot because hot lava has been painted into it, not because of high pressure

I think the cold biome should be all around the asteroid: the cold would come from the space through the neutronium. The lava biome should be in the middle of the asteroid (with eventually a lava geyser?) , the actual center, and the spawn base would be beetween that where the hot and cold temperature  leverage together...

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Voted for option 3, use a different averaging, because i could not choose a fourth option.

 

Frankly i don't care if the game uses special rule sets for unique buildings and/or materials... What's important to me is that ALL information is provided to me, as up-front as possible, and there are no "secret" mechanics happening that i am not made aware of or are impossible for me to find listed somewhere.

Thermo-dynamics breaking temperature averaging between an almost-impossible to heat material and a super-conductor? That's fine with me, but please tell me about it before I get there!

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Taking into account the most recent hotfixes, I think it's great. It might not be realistic, for what that's worth in a game that includes animals that eat rock and poop coal, but it's balanced, which is the metric I judge this stuff by.
         
         
* The higher end of the thermal conductivity spectrum now matters. Prior to this change, granite and tungsten might as well have had the same thermal properties for most uses. Radiant pipes were all set to have the same problem.
         
* Insulated tiles and pipes now matter. Prior to this change, they were useless because abyssalite normal tiles were just as good at half the price.
         
* Where you get abyssalite from now matters. Don't want to cook your base? Trap the heat in insulated tiles, or just avoid sweeping it into your base if you harvested it from the caustic biome. Plus you can get lucky and find absolute-zero abyssalite next to neutronium, which is a boon if you get it into your base before it heats up.
         
         
I'm sold on it, and will be disappointed if they revert it. It's a change that restores functionality to a few game mechanics that the material system had broken while still allowing devices designed in previous versions of the game to work exactly as they did before (they just need to be rebuilt with insulated abyssalite tiles instead of normal ones)..

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I played and i thinks this change actually doesnt change the gameplay much. My theory is, Just double the wall , the average conductivity of abyssalite is  abyssalite , if tile has 2 -tile thickness everything going back to before. I played not much to confirm but It looks like heat doesnt transfer "between" abyssalite. I go through map and fix where natural abyssalite tile is 1-tile thick by adding regular abyss tile around them.  will See if it works.

Regardlessly iam not happy with this update. puddly ice biom.. Not intuitive physics..   Not so much. 

Well if we need to nerf abyssalite why dont we just nerf them? Rather than brake physics? We could seriusly reduce abyss quantity by making them 1~2 tile thick and buff the insulating items to have abyss level conductivity for every material, or any other way.

i will wait update while playing. This need another way in my opinion

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It's a change that requires far more micro-management.  You will be digging up abysallite at absolute zero and at 1600C and you have to manual sweep the right ones to the right place and block access to the rest to get things built out of the right material at the right temperature.  Yes, we have all the tools in place to do that, but it has not added fun to the game.

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1 hour ago, malloc said:

It's a change that requires far more micro-management.  You will be digging up abysallite at absolute zero and at 1600C and you have to manual sweep the right ones to the right place and block access to the rest to get things built out of the right material at the right temperature.  Yes, we have all the tools in place to do that, but it has not added fun to the game.

I would like to stress that this is the exact opposite of adding fun to the game.  If we're going to be required to perform this level of micro, then I'm going to stop playing the game.  Because it's not a game anymore.

I play games to relieve stress, not to gain more.

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10 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

I would like to stress that this is the exact opposite of adding fun to the game.  If we're going to be required to perform this level of micro, then I'm going to stop playing the game.  Because it's not a game anymore.

I play games to relieve stress, not to gain more.

Sad but true. So frustrating..

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1 hour ago, malloc said:

It's a change that requires far more micro-management.  You will be digging up abysallite at absolute zero and at 1600C and you have to manual sweep the right ones to the right place and block access to the rest to get things built out of the right material at the right temperature.  Yes, we have all the tools in place to do that, but it has not added fun to the game.

Is it extra micro, though? You can already dig up igneous rock at magma temperature. Whatever tactic you're using to keep that from incinerating your base will work just as well with abyssalite.

You only need to micro if you want to extract a bit of extra cooling out of cold abyssalite, which is entirely optional: akin to building ice sculptures. So long as you only use abyssalite for insulated tiles/pipes (which, apart from possibly the refinery, is all you should be using it for), the temperature of it doesn't matter.

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9 hours ago, crypticorb said:

Abyssalite is an unrealistic material. My personal opinion is that abyssalite material should simply not drop as a material, or only drop in such small quantities as to be incredibly rare.

Yep, we should have to refined it into a more thermically conductive material before being able to use it.

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8 hours ago, malloc said:

It's a change that requires far more micro-management.  You will be digging up abysallite at absolute zero and at 1600C and you have to manual sweep the right ones to the right place and block access to the rest to get things built out of the right material at the right temperature.  Yes, we have all the tools in place to do that, but it has not added fun to the game.

I mean, everyone's so focused on rushing abyssalite, and you don't really need to. I just did an experiment breaking into exactly one volcanic biome (not magma, volcanic) in the first 20 cycles and insulating my base from hot neighboring areas using insulated igneous.

It actually works quite well what with the insulated tiles and pipes behaving like a two-wide layer of material, and a block of insulated igneous tile having a thermal conductivity of 0.05.

I still think klei could have just solved the radiant pipe problem the same way they made insulated tiles work in the first place, and that averaging is really unintuitive/unrealistic. But, I'm changing my vote to "let's let this play out for a while". Skipping insulated equipment to just build out of abyssalite, and all other materials being completely wasted on insulation, seemed really wrong also.

On one last note, if game-breaking updates are a dealbreaker for you, back up your local game files. Klei has to be able to reshuffle the deck on occasion.

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On 25/04/2018 at 5:07 PM, onebit said:

Enquiring minds want to know.

I will be angry against the devs for ages if they don't coming back for this, made an average for the thermal conductivity is a non sense, an isolating material don't become conductive by putting a conductive material next to it.

But i will continue to play it when i will have the time, cause news problems means news solution to find and i love this

1 hour ago, avc15 said:

I mean, everyone's so focused on rushing abyssalite, and you don't really need to.on.

Not really, vacuum isolation it's really fun and effective, most of people are angry cause they made big system (most borg cube i suppose) isolating by only one layer of insulated aby tile, me not, most of my ice biome is open to a hot one so now about all ice have melted but most of my system work well cause of vacuum well preventing heat transfert

8 hours ago, PhailRaptor said:

I would like to stress that this is the exact opposite of adding fun to the game.  If we're going to be required to perform this level of micro, then I'm going to stop playing the game.  Because it's not a game anymore.

I play games to relieve stress, not to gain more.

So I advice you to never play don't starve:D

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Dev should make anti-entropy mechanisms more powerful if they made a huge change that causes heat death dozens tens of thousands times faster.

 

My 600 Cycles old Colony just dead in 10 Cycles after this patch....

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9 hours ago, juni3227 said:

Dev should make anti-entropy mechanisms more powerful if they made a huge change that causes heat death dozens tens of thousands times faster.

 

My 600 Cycles old Colony just dead in 10 Cycles after this patch....

Just to clarify since this seems like a misunderstanding: overall, heat creeping into your base is no slower or faster than it used to be.

Your colony most likely died because the change released all the pent up thermal energy you had trapped in normal abyssalite tiles harvested from the caustic biome.

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1 hour ago, QuQuasar said:

Just to clarify since this seems like a misunderstanding: overall, heat creeping into your base is no slower or faster than it used to be.

Your colony most likely died because the change released all the pent up thermal energy you had trapped in normal abyssalite tiles harvested from the caustic biome.

You know, they made heat conduct based on average value of heat flow of near 'tiles' which effectively made heat flow of abyssalite more than half of near tiles, which is....about 1~0.1.

For example, if abyssalite is near the igneous rock, its heat conductivity is just about half of the igneous rock.

There was a huge chamber that made oxygen out of electrolyzer trapped inside natural abyssalite walls. I cooled it with an AETN. but it's now useless. heat from outside the chamber is flowing inside. That caused death of my colony.

 

... Heat death is now inevitable....

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It appears the average value thing was reverted for tile/tile interactions and was only kept for pipe/contents interactions. A brief experiment shows wolframite/granite tiles interacting at the same rate as tungsten/granite tiles which means the average thing isn't a thing, barring some bug for that very specific scenario.

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