Where I think Don't Starve franchise went very wrong...

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

Most people who play DS/DST right now, will probably not have any idea why both of these games are a sad reflection of themselves for me, but there's no happy-go-lucky way to put this with concerns not being raised.

I have always found it an issue that getting to a point where you can survive by sitting in a base while at the same time grinding for hours on end by harvesting, killing, storing, cooking in multiple crockpots, doing the same menial tasks over and over again etc. in order to achieve and maintain this status, was part of the games. They were there since the inception of Don't Starve, but for whatever reason became the supposed main goal of the game as a result of making a survival experience, despite the latter not necessitating to mean that the former will inevitably happen. Klei have tried in the past way more to add more things to the world to keep this from happening, but at the end of the day, you would get to a point where you are at this position. Now it seems as though they are trying to encourage it, rather than prevent it, and the game being more about the experience of the struggle, rather than standing near a campfire surrounded by hundreds of gold nuggets and gems, while beating every boss like it's your day job is way more prevalent. It's the most generic a game can get, this isn't good game design. I mean, what's with the humongous amounts of decorative stuff, optional bosses, gaps in wrapping content well into the overarching game and multiple exploits that never get addressed?

The video I linked points out what I believe to have led to such demise into a social club experience rather than a survival-adventure-horror one; players who complain about something being too hard simply because they could not beat something after they had previously gotten used to being comfortable beating everything on the whim and praising and demanding positivity, seem to be doing so because apparently there's not enough of that here already. I may be a hypocrite here, in that I have probably done this myself at some point, and I now realise that it was my will at the time to simply gain a "professional" player status quicker rather than being guided and experiencing the game itself, which is what at first I had going for me, and what I am willing to believe got most people hooked into the game in the first place. Exploits don't make a game good, it destroys the experience, we all know it, but many of us are compelled by it, because for some reason, it is to some level ingrained into us that being an elite 1000 day mega-base player is somehow getting yourself immersed with a well-crafted gaming experience. Trust me, it is not.

People argue "it's difficult to implement a system that works well for the game" and while that is indeed true... how is that a detriment for the developers to put more effort into work with the game's design? They develop the game, sell it to us, and we are supposed to expect the most basic and thought-less mechanics that could be in the game? Why? Klei are not inept. And $15+ dollars for rusty, buggy, unfinished fart doesn't seem like you're getting what you're paying for.

My point is, the fan base seemed to demand a lot of content that went to the detriment of the games, while just mentioning here and there how something could have been better, and Klei gave in. Now they're relying on skins and more skins through a grind-fasted event which, while great to play for a while and is much more seamless and rounded up than the base DST experience and the whole lot of DS, I've noticed that, is ultimately there just for reaping in more cash from the game because they can and not much more. I don't know how well Klei are doing, nobody can, but trying to justify the slow but steady creep into what larger game companies have now indulged themselves into real fast through the idea that the company's not getting enough cash to support the game is sickeningly manipulative.

Really, why should we continue to support the game, if at the end of the day you'll just end up with more farted out content and a bunch of skins than an actually improved experience to the game? Just so it can all be swallowed up, whoop whoop the hype train for whatever else is going to come out and be left unfinished and with half-baked and re-skinned content. I mean, The Forge is going away soon, and that's a moba experience, not a survival-adventure one as the game was and is still advertised as. And what we got from that was, well, basically another boss fight, just an exclusive one. Seriously, what is with the developers and the countless boss-fight introductions? It's just one boss fight after another, have you really ran out of good ideas for this whole thing, do you not want to put in the effort or could it be... both?

You can call me negative as much as you want, but that's not going to put the games into a position where they are well-crafted experiences. I think it's at least good for one person to speak out about this rather than there being complete dead silence to keep the squeaking of he wheel of the blatantly obvious cranky ride that is Don't Starve franchise from squeaking too much.

The way I see it, it's a perpetual cycle of supply-and-demand between Klei and the fandom, rather than well-designed experiences by the developers to be experienced and critically reviewed.

[. . .]

In my opinion as long as Klei allows mod support for DS then I'm happy with anyway they take Don't Starve since mods can make DS the way you want, & I don't think the way Don't Starve franchise is heading is bad.

Also, at least they update the game or add some new content unlike many other game companies stop updating their games or ever adding any new content. Especially with Klei making all these new games I'm just glad they didn't abandon Don't Starve franchise yet.

[Rellimarual]

Wow, that video is such a great reminder of how unimaginative and limited other games are! It really makes me appreciate DS/DST, its wit and style and versatility and inventiveness, and the freedom it gives its players, instead of forcing us into one particular way of playing, which is how so many games cover up the shallowness of their world-building.

[MondayNight]

If I remember well DS tagline, probably extended to DST, is "Your world, your rules". Freedom to do whatever you want in a given sandbox setup, from a survival-adventure standpoint, rogue-like included. Yes, it has obvious action elements, some horror (without gore, being a "family friendly" game). And sure, you can impute a lot of shortcomings, starting with its steep learning curve, mostly based on trial-and-error, no information given, imbalanced characters and mobs, glitches etc. But at least the learning aspect is nothing unsurpassable by "What's out there and how can I profit from it?!" drive ..and patience. Curiosity if you like. And given all this, you are in the end (of a world without actual ending) presented with this seemingly ultimate goal: your road from scarcity to prosperity. In classic, story-driven games, ultimate goal may be a belletristic outcome; and thru that story you can intentionally be kept in a perpetual "barely surviving" scarcity - what you call a true "survival experience". However DST has not such end or cohesive story; so your goal most likely is the mentioned prosperity, aka well-developed bases with farms (semi-automatic gathering of resources) and fighting (with those resources at hand) all hostiles - "conquering the world" if you may. And that's really ok; I'm not the only one saying this, but an "Overwhelmingly Positive (41,030)" atm status of DST just on Steam store. (Again: precisely because "your world, your rules" is in place, folks fancying "barely surviving" can very well do so.)

Plus your "supply-and-demand between Klei and the fandom" is EXACTLY why Klei is so much appreciated for (also the desired essence of commerce). Take only the cosmetic in-game skins issue or "pls more raid bosses" one: people demanded more, and Klei gave us The Forge - where you can earn numerous skins and fight lots of minion waves and bosses to your heart's content. I for one name this a rather well serviced demand (as it should be).

In the end what you seem to ask is a narrowing of "your world, your rules" from end-game prosperity to perpetual scarcity because.. forced perpetual survival; a constrained style of play (and I've seen in many of your posts this proclivity, to push your subjectivity as objectivity). I for one wouldn't want my proverbial hand be forced like that when at beginning was given total freedom. Also is not Klei's fault people' end-goal became mega-bases or the like, just a trend via crowd dynamics.

[Rellimarual]

Definitely the game opens out like a funnel, so that your goals are very directed early on and then as you civilize the wilderness you have more options and can exercise more creativity. Not everyone is comfortable with that, especially players who are more accustomed to being led through an escalating series of familiar, even formulaic challenges. It’s a different kind of challenge, figuring out what to do once you’ve secured basic survival, and if you’re used to games with limited options I can see how that might be more difficult than facing an immediate threat. 

[minespatch]

The video features "Mark of the Ninja" which is a Klei product, so I appreciated that snippet that Nels had to say about counter-intuitive mechanics. I wouldn't be surprised if those two paragraphs went into some thought when working on Invisible Inc.

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

17 hours ago, Rellimarual said:

Wow, that video is such a great reminder of how unimaginative and limited other games are! It really makes me appreciate DS/DST, its wit and style and versatility and inventiveness, and the freedom it gives its players, instead of forcing us into one particular way of playing, which is how so many games cover up the shallowness of their world-building.

Inventive how exactly? Having a proper goal in mind, while letting you play in various ways is not the same as letting you do whatever the hell you want after a certain point without much consequence, changing the game to a point where you're not . My point isn't to force players to play a certain way, but encourage it, and that's tough to do, but not unfeasible. With the world options to change gameplay, you could get a bigger challenge for yourself, but the game doesn't encourage the challenge. You've been playing default for a long time and so you continue, and even if you change settings, a lot of them are badly balanced. Not only that, the mechanics stay the same. And modders are unlikely to fix that, it's often about making the game even easier than it already is after a certain point, and that's because making an immersive experience would require way more work than a modder can afford to do. It's supposed to be Klei's job anyway to make a decent experience, since they have full control of the game, can implement content much more easily than modders can, and they get payed to work on the game. Modders don't, and there are no real mods that change the experience to a truly well-crafted survival experience as a result. Just a bunch of character mods with basic tweaks in game mechanics. Where do you have a mod that actually tries to balance out game's exploits and uselessness of various items as well as the triviality of the mechanics in the game? Where?

16 hours ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

1) If I remember well DS tagline, probably extended to DST, is "Your world, your rules". Freedom to do whatever you want in a given sandbox setup, from a survival-adventure standpoint, rogue-like included. Yes, it has obvious action elements, some horror (without gore, being a "family friendly" game). And sure, you can impute a lot of shortcomings, starting with its steep learning curve, mostly based on trial-and-error, no information given, imbalanced characters and mobs, glitches etc. But at least the learning aspect is nothing unsurpassable by "What's out there and how can I profit from it?!" drive ..and patience. Curiosity if you like. And given all this, you are in the end (of a world without actual ending) presented with this seemingly ultimate goal: your road from scarcity to prosperity. In classic, story-driven games, ultimate goal may be a belletristic outcome; and thru that story you can intentionally be kept in a perpetual "barely surviving" scarcity - what you call a true "survival experience". However DST has not such end or cohesive story; so your goal most likely is the mentioned prosperity, aka well-developed bases with farms (semi-automatic gathering of resources) and fighting (with those resources at hand) all hostiles - "conquering the world" if you may. And that's really ok; I'm not the only one saying this, but an "Overwhelmingly Positive (41,030)" atm status of DST just on Steam store. (Again: precisely because "your world, your rules" is in place, folks fancying "barely surviving" can very well do so.)

Plus your "supply-and-demand between Klei and the fandom" is EXACTLY why Klei is so much appreciated for (also the desired essence of commerce). Take only the cosmetic in-game skins issue or "pls more raid bosses" one: people demanded more, and Klei gave us The Forge - where you can earn numerous skins and fight lots of minion waves and bosses to your heart's content. I for one name this a rather well serviced demand (as it should be).

In the end what you seem to ask is a narrowing of "your world, your rules" from end-game prosperity to perpetual scarcity because.. forced perpetual survival; a constrained style of play (and I've seen in many of your posts this proclivity, to push your subjectivity as objectivity). I for one wouldn't want my proverbial hand be forced like that when at beginning was given total freedom. Also is not Klei's fault people' end-goal became mega-bases or the like, just a trend via crowd dynamics.

1) You could literally apply this to something like NMS to make the game sound better than it is. DS/DST IS story-driven, that was the whole idea with the characters and the lore that it has, otherwise, why have it? How is going from scarcity straight through to prosperity without intruiging and immersive game-play a good thing at all? Instead of prosperity, why shouldn't the game urge you to progress forward, instead of settling down and expanding what is within your control? Why is this a good thing? So many games allow for this because the development of the content is so simple and lazy.

Moreover no, you don't have the option to play like you want. You're restricted to meleeing pretty much everything all the time for one, most stuff you'd be interested in taking use of is useless, players end up playing the exact same way and get triggered when someone plays differently than them because the method is inferior, demanding that others attain their "eliteness" that relies on exploits and grinding.

2) (this also applies to "well serviced demand") This is exactly what is WRONG with these games. There's no reason for innovative and careful designing of great experiences, but rather just taking a some-what suitable concept, throwing it out there, re-skinning various assets, continuing with the idea of encouraging exploits and grinding, narrowing down the experience to almost one single route to take that is not that exciting, but is comforting the mega-base builders' boners.

3) It is their fault for giving into it. It's a trend that will always go through if the developers allow it, because the nature of a player typically is to demand more comfort, not more challenge, instinctively. It is then onto the developers to make sure they don't let this happen to their games, and in this case, Klei have let it slip through. No more do they seem to have that much care about how well the games are designed as an art-form, it's about what's the easiest to make and sell in order to comfort the fanbase in their already-comfortable state, leaving the games with truly awful game design. This is a perpertual cycle of dulled down content, lowering down the quality bar for what makes entertainment good.

12 hours ago, minespatch said:

The video features "Mark of the Ninja" which is a Klei product, so I appreciated that snippet that Nels had to say about counter-intuitive mechanics. I wouldn't be surprised if those two paragraphs went into some thought when working on Invisible Inc.

What I find ironic is that the statement applies to DST; the idea that the game is way too much about melee. But in DS/DST's case, it's the simplicity and constant push by the game towards boring, repetitive melee tactics that make it ever-less so exciting to play.

How about if you looked at the game as actually content to be critically reviewed, everyone: instead of what the games allows you to do and how much it turns you on from the comfort you can achieve, ask: how well is the content designed to fit the survival narrative, does the game guide the player well in any form, how fair is the game in terms of its mechanics in relation to the situation that the player is in, how well and to what extent is the art good and consistent, does the game game encourage progression and how well does it do so, how good is the game at maintaining the experience etc.

[LePietatoLord]

I think the main problem is that the devs' aren't pushing towards the seemingly end-goal; to get home. In the first game, you do Adventure mode. In Don't Starve Together, you are supposed to defeat the Ancient Fuelweaver and continue through whatever they add on. However, the general audience isn't really aware of this big plan. If the developers could show people what was wanted in a more optional way, a type of story/objective could succeed. I mean, what's the point of the Metheus, Cyclum, and Maxwell puzzles if the story hasn't really shown itself ingame? 

[HamBatter]

I think they have done really well with the existing engine at a reasonable rate, especially with The Forge.

If you're looking for difficulty you can try soloing Klaus, the Shadow Pieces, or Fuelweaver, but if you hadn't noticed already those are optional because they don't want you to game over because you can't find some friends to play with.

[MondayNight]

1 hour ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

....euedeadodooedoeuedeadodooedoeuedeadodooedoe...

 

1) Yes, there is DST lore in form of dissipated bits and pieces of a story, hints of one. But not an actual story. You've got some characters you know almost next-to-nothing about (beside Wilson and Maxwell), you have a world you don't even know the nature of (there is even speculation it's all fake, a pseudo-living stage with props), an ancient civilization of bug (?!) people gone through a cataclysmic event, the shadows themselves... all mystery. You have a big mystery. But is ok, is just a loosen premise/context for "here's a hostile environment, survive by getting the gigs of it via trial-and-error". Thus it comes into place said "road from scarcity to prosperity" as ultimate goal. So no, DST isn't story-driven, just your mystery-solving mind speculating about some bits and pieces, connecting dots where maybe there isn't even a connection to begin with; just theories.

2) "You're restricted to meleeing pretty much everything all the time" - not really; you can gunpowder everything into oblivion given enough determination, time and resources. Or use traps, mobs etc. Also darts (again if time and resources are at your free disposal). Regarding in-game  efficiency ..just don't give in to social pressure (aka "players end up playing the exact same way and get triggered when someone plays differently than them because the method is inferior") if you don't like that, letting others dictate what you can and cannot do. And sure, game isn't very polished and we can agree a lot of stuff could be made better... yet time hasn't passed for Klei to not do so anymore (look no further than Shipwrecked and its recent update).

3) "..nature of a player typically is to demand more comfort, not more challenge" - how does this apply to "the cosmetic in-game skins issue or "pls more raid bosses" one: people demanded more, and Klei gave us The Forge"? We got a game mode that is combat-challenging. You want more challenge in the base DST? Again, the time has not passed for that to happen (indeed WorldGen and its options would do some tweaking). More updates will come and is precisely because of "supply-and-demand between Klei and the fandom" we get our collective amount of desires somewhat translated into DS/T.

 

In the end it seems you just wanna be guided through a story (more or less in the vain of classic initiatory journey trope) where players are compelled (read forced) into perpetual scarcity survival all the beginning-to-end road. Namely what has been done already in other titles . And I think here you've misread DST and what is all about: freedom of choice. You can sit at gate and survive 1000 days in something akin to a mini-camp if you wish so (and have the how-to knowledge), avoiding fights altogether; or go nuts roaming the world and killing everything (otherwise grow Tallbirds in a corner, heh). Do whatever you want in the given context. And that's the great thing about DST - exactly what you actually want changed into a guided/directional experience (maybe the core of DST is not your cup of tea ..anymore?!).

[Rellimarual]

5 minutes ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

And I think here you've misread DST and what is all about: freedom of choice. You can sit at gate and survive 1000 days in something akin to a mini-camp if you wish so (and have the how-to knowledge), avoiding fights altogether; or go nuts roaming the world and killing everything (otherwise grow Tallbirds in a corner, heh). Do whatever you want in the given context. And that's the great thing about DST - exactly what you actually want changed into a guided/directional experience (maybe the core of DST is not your cup of tea ..anymore?!).

While it’s not easy to picture what exactly you want from these fairly abstract complaints, I have to agree with the above. It seems like what others really appreciate about the game is the very thing you think is broken. You have some idea of what it’s supposed to be like on the basis of its genre and what a lot of us like about it is that it doesn’t follow that formula and can be played in many different ways. This does seem to cause some people a lot of discomfort, that there is no one “right” way to play. They really feel the need to slap some rigid framework on it so that all that unsettling gray area can be banished.

[Ressayez]

Where I think Abadabbadoo went very wrong:

 

[Toros]

@EuedeAdodooedoe I think the time has come to firmly but politely show you the door.  You have been the “squeeky wheel” on numerous occasions where you felt your invariably negative opinion was worth sharing on a daily basis.

It’s been clear from the start you don’t have coherent suggestions, know as much about game design and mechanics as a monkey does about quantum physics. I’m sure I’m not the only one who thinks you and two players whose names rhyme with “The Schming of Shumurrels” and “The Schmurator” clearly aren’t enjoying the game.  We certainly don’t enjoy you complaining near-daily about it on the forums, and I think it’s time you left.

I wish there was a nicer way to say this, but it’s clear you aren’t happy here, nor are we happy you’re here.  Doesn’t take a genius to figure out the solution where everyone is happier.

[MasterWolf]

The one thing I WOULD want Klei to do would be to fix the many bugs in the game, specially on the Xbox. The Xbox version can be unplayable sometimes.

I do agree with him on the micro transaction point. The one thing I do fear of coming to Klei is the lootbox. They are testing it out with the war chests, and I really hope they are not foolish enough to implement this sort of micro transaction. It is preys on people's addiction, and it is a vile thing. I remember reading a comment where someone complained about the lack of animations, and colors when opening the chest. If DST would have been released 10 years ago, all the skins would be rewarded to the player by completing achievements/ killing bosses. The random "gift" device is really annoying, and I think most players do not like it (see the Hallowed Nights fiasco), specially with the market place.

[Toros]

1 minute ago, Master Wolf said:

The one thing I WOULD want Klei to do would be to fix the many bugs in the game, specially on the Xbox. The Xbox version can be unplayable sometimes.

I do agree with him on the micro transaction point. The one thing I do fear of coming to Klei is the lootbox. They are testing it out with the war chests, and I really hope they are not foolish enough to implement this sort of micro transaction. It is preys on people's addiction, and it is a vile thing. I remember reading a comment where someone complained about the lack of animations, and colors when opening the chest. If DST would have been released 10 years ago, all the skins would be rewarded to the player by completing achievements/ killing bosses. The random "gift" device is really annoying, and I think most players do not like it (see the Hallowed Nights fiasco), specially with the market place.

If you agree with eauadobo on any point, that is a clear sign you’ve gone astray.

While I would’ve preferred that there was a halloween costume pack just like the forge pack to limit the price of purely cosmetic items on the marketplace, it’s pretty clear there’s no harm being done.  If you don’t understand that limited time cosmetics with no gameplay effect are inherently a safe way for a developer to continue to fund development, I’m not sure further discussion between us will be productive.

Your fear that Klei will be lootbox driven is completely unfounded because not only is it not an issue now, they’ve consistently demonstrated that they won’t do anything in DST that either splits the community or allows power to be purchased with real money.

 

Consider:

1) All characters are unlocked from the start in DST, no grinding and they also included RoG

2) The rest of RoG content is included in DST at no extra charge, as well as an additional ANR expansion which adds exclusive content for everyone, for free.

3) The forge was developed as a free temporary gamemode where again, only cosmetic content can be bought, and assuming you wanted say, half the content you could do so via playing for free.

Your worries are benignly misguided, at best.  At worst they’re ignorant fearmongering.

Klei has been a consistently trustworthy developer across multiple games and types of games.  I’m getting really tired of people making inept comparisons to horrendously greedy publishers like EA who not only mismanage the franchises they have, but purchase and ruin popular ones.

I’ve pointed out numerous decisions that Klei has made that were missteps and often they’re due to listening too much to the community.

A significant minority of the community feel that the loud complaining of dim children is the best way to steer the direction of the game.  If you don’t see the self-evident issue there, please reread that sentence.

[Sinister_Fang]

1 hour ago, Master Wolf said:

It is preys on people's addiction, and it is a vile thing.

Only when done incorrectly. Right now you can't purchase the lootboxes. And that is the issue with the majority of lootbox systems. Klei instead lets you buy each character's skins or the whole lot for a discount. There are no random elements in this transaction. You know exactly what you're getting.

Now if Klei were selling the lootboxes, then it would fall into the current lootbox drama. But they're not. So I don't see the issue here aside from the stigma that comes from the word "lootbox".

[minespatch]

15 minutes ago, Sinister_Fang said:

Klei instead lets you buy each character's skins or the whole lot for a discount.

And you can unravel them to get more bang for your buck so you can get more items.

[Rellimarual]

I don’t view the Hallowed Nights event as a “fiasco.” Most players I know got at least one Halloween skin. I personally got 3, including 1 elegant head skin. Yes, a handful of hysterics took to the forums in the first week to complain about the market, but JUST AS PREDICTED, the prices on all the skins have dropped dramatically. You can get the Wendy head for $25, if that’s how you choose to spend your money. Many of the body costumes cost around a dollar. Even better, the prices of a lot of older skins fell during the event. The head I got was for a character I don’t play, but I was able to sell it for a reasonable price and buy a lot of other skins I’d had my eye on for a while, plus one of the new item skins. There are still a few I’d like to buy, and that’s fine. I look forward to getting another good drop in the coming months and cashing it in to buy them. Having to wait for them will only make it more fun to finally get them.

You don’t need any skins to play the game. (Personally, I have no desire to wear Halloween skins when its not Halloween anyway and Klei let us wear any of the skins we wanted during the event.) The idea that not getting exactly the skin you want right away for free is some kind of terrible injustice is just silly and the attitude of a spoiled child.

[Lumina]

6 hours ago, Sinister_Fang said:

 

Now if Klei were selling the lootboxes, then it would fall into the current lootbox drama. But they're not. So I don't see the issue here aside from the stigma that comes from the word "lootbox".

As far as i understand, Master Wolf express a fear.

I, too, don't want to see this kind of microtransaction in the game and hope that Klei will never do it. Of course, there is no issue at the moment and i'm happy. I also know that this system exist on others games and even when it's only cosmetic it creates issues (because it's like gambling).

But i also feel it's important to say why i hope i'll never see a microtransaction lootbox and why i hope Klei will keep only fair offers in the game.

Because even some games i like are using this system and i feel like it's easy to do something that is pretty common, so why not expressing my point of view since it's not too late ?

 

[Aalda11]

I like the phrase "social club experience". Yes, that's indeed what DST is and that's exactly why it doesn't interest me at all. The main reason I fell in love with the base game was the feeling of a lonely struggle and even dread, despite the childish art design. DST completely kills that. But it seems for an awful lot of people it adds new experiences and attractions stemming from a multiplayer game so to each their own I guess.

What I definitely don't like about the base game (maybe my only real complaint) is the optional stuff. Here I agree with the OP. The caves and especially ruins addon in DS is great but no effort has been done to tie them more tightly with the surface game. It's completely optional. I don't like that. The surface part has a very unsatisfying endgame (find the teleporter parts, leave for a new world, yay) and the caves/ruins was a perfect opportunity for Klei to make the endgame more interesting and challenging. But it's totally optional. What a shame.

[MasterWolf]

10 hours ago, Toros said:

If you agree with eauadobo on any point, that is a clear sign you’ve gone astray.

While I would’ve preferred that there was a halloween costume pack just like the forge pack to limit the price of purely cosmetic items on the marketplace, it’s pretty clear there’s no harm being done.  If you don’t understand that limited time cosmetics with no gameplay effect are inherently a safe way for a developer to continue to fund development, I’m not sure further discussion between us will be productive.

Your fear that Klei will be lootbox driven is completely unfounded because not only is it not an issue now, they’ve consistently demonstrated that they won’t do anything in DST that either splits the community or allows power to be purchased with real money.

 

Consider:

1) All characters are unlocked from the start in DST, no grinding and they also included RoG

2) The rest of RoG content is included in DST at no extra charge, as well as an additional ANR expansion which adds exclusive content for everyone, for free.

3) The forge was developed as a free temporary gamemode where again, only cosmetic content can be bought, and assuming you wanted say, half the content you could do so via playing for free.

Your worries are benignly misguided, at best.  At worst they’re ignorant fearmongering.

Klei has been a consistently trustworthy developer across multiple games and types of games.  I’m getting really tired of people making inept comparisons to horrendously greedy publishers like EA who not only mismanage the franchises they have, but purchase and ruin popular ones.

I’ve pointed out numerous decisions that Klei has made that were missteps and often they’re due to listening too much to the community.

A significant minority of the community feel that the loud complaining of dim children is the best way to steer the direction of the game.  If you don’t see the self-evident issue there, please reread that sentence.

Well you definitely did not read what I posted, @Luminacompletely understood my point. You are being irrational and defensive, so it is kind of pointless to talk to you right now. I will respond when you have calmed down.

8 hours ago, Sinister_Fang said:

Only when done incorrectly. Right now you can't purchase the lootboxes. And that is the issue with the majority of lootbox systems. Klei instead lets you buy each character's skins or the whole lot for a discount. There are no random elements in this transaction. You know exactly what you're getting.

Now if Klei were selling the lootboxes, then it would fall into the current lootbox drama. But they're not. So I don't see the issue here aside from the stigma that comes from the word "lootbox".

Right now the gaming industry is shifting towards micro transactions. I just laid out my fears (FFS I literally said "I fear"). You do not defend the issue with getting random gifts though, you are satisfied with it as long as they don't charge for it. And you can only buy skins for the Forge though, if you want to buy other skins, you have to use the marketplace.

All lootboxes are horrible because they are gambling, and they prey on people. Just like in the alcohol and cigarette industry, most of the profits come from the minority of addicts that purchase their products. And not only is this bad by itself, it is being experienced by kids and altering their brains. Having addictions messes up your brain, the dopamine pathways are not a joke. People think that addiction is just a lack of control, IT IS NOT. They just say that because they do not understand that addictions cause neurons to form connections that are really hard to change. Which is why addicts tend to relapse, or change their addictions. Once you start with an addiction, you will have the addictive connections in your brain for most of your life, the "cravings" don't stop.

2 hours ago, Rellimarual said:

I don’t view the Hallowed Nights event as a “fiasco.” Most players I know got at least one Halloween skin. I personally got 3, including 1 elegant head skin. Yes, a handful of hysterics took to the forums in the first week to complain about the market, but JUST AS PREDICTED, the prices on all the skins have dropped dramatically. You can get the Wendy head for $25, if that’s how you choose to spend your money. Many of the body costumes cost around a dollar. Even better, the prices of a lot of older skins fell during the event. The head I got was for a character I don’t play, but I was able to sell it for a reasonable price and buy a lot of other skins I’d had my eye on for a while, plus one of the new item skins. There are still a few I’d like to buy, and that’s fine. I look forward to getting another good drop in the coming months and cashing it in to buy them. Having to wait for them will only make it more fun to finally get them.

You don’t need any skins to play the game. (Personally, I have no desire to wear Halloween skins when its not Halloween anyway and Klei let us wear any of the skins we wanted during the event.) The idea that not getting exactly the skin you want right away for free is some kind of terrible injustice is just silly and the attitude of a spoiled child.

I would disagree when you consider the "Concerns Regarding Halloween Skins" post, it got 211 responses and 8,094 views. This is just the best example of many posts like this. There shouldn't be a marketplace in the first place for this, most people do not like it. There were so many people that posted about how they hated it, and felt so frustrated that they couldn't have access to the skins they wanted. And the worst part of your comment, is that you try to defend your "stance" by disregarding 2/3 of your comment. "You don't need skins to play the game"...... that is such an arrogant and hypocritical statement that it almost made me disregard everything you said. You spend 2/3 of your post talking about skins, but then said that stupid thing........... And not only that, you talk down to people that think differently than you, which are most people. Most people want the skins in the game, THEY are what brings most people back to the game. People I know ranging from casual to hardcore gamers, they come back to the game because of the skins. Hell, A LOT of the posts in the forums are about skins. So your contradicting views are in the minority.

I posted the thing about getting the skins as a reward, because it is true. 10 years ago, all of the skins WOULD have been rewarded to the player. It is not about being a "spoiled child" it is just the fact that games are moving towards micro transactions. Because if this **** happened 10 years ago, people would have crucified Klei.

[Mario384]

I think the game is a well-crafted experience which Klei makes sure to take very good care of.  I wouldn't change anything except:

- Beefalo riding

- Werebeaver

- Willow

And these are very, very small grievances, and if that's all I have to complain about, I think this game is in an excellent spot.  Forge was perfect, and I can't wait for what comes next.

[Rellimarual]

If we’re going to measure this stuff by forum posts (which seems foolish, given that a handful of non representative people can generate a ton of forum posts about nonsense, but let’s just say for now that we are), then let me point out that while the topic on concerns about Halloween skins did generate 211 posts, those were, as I said, driven by people freaked out by the mistaken belief that the most desireable skins were going to continue to cost hundreds of dollars, or even more, as the OP of that thread feared. 

No one has posted on that thread for 12 days. It’s not in the first page of active topics, or the second, or the third. It has become inactive because those fears turned out to be unfounded. 

My only issue with you is your characterization of the Halloween event as a “fiasco.” It has been just fine, a small treat offered by the devs, especially appreciated by those of us who aren’t interested in the forge. The hysteria among a few forum posters that greeted its first week or so has died down as people realized this.

I don’t have a big problem with the current system, but I also don’t have a problem with buying skins directly from Klei. I bought the full Forge set even though I don’t really like most of them, just to support the devs. Obviously, any skins you can buy in a big package will be viewed as less desireable than skins you can only get by chance and putting in a lot of hours in the game, because rare things are valued more than things that can be easily gotten by anyone.

I know plenty of players who don’t care about skins or actively don’t like them. Just because a topic about the Halloween skins got a lot of posts, doesn’t mean its representative of all the people who like and play the game. I like skins! But I would not play a game just to get skins. That’s nuts — if you don’t enjoy a game enough on its own, why would you care about being able to play it with a character with a somewhat different hairdo?

[Toros]

2 hours ago, Aalda11 said:

I like the phrase "social club experience". Yes, that's indeed what DST is and that's exactly why it doesn't interest me at all. The main reason I fell in love with the base game was the feeling of a lonely struggle and even dread, despite the childish art design. DST completely kills that. But it seems for an awful lot of people it adds new experiences and attractions stemming from a multiplayer game so to each their own I guess.

What I definitely don't like about the base game (maybe my only real complaint) is the optional stuff. Here I agree with the OP. The caves and especially ruins addon in DS is great but no effort has been done to tie them more tightly with the surface game. It's completely optional. I don't like that. The surface part has a very unsatisfying endgame (find the teleporter parts, leave for a new world, yay) and the caves/ruins was a perfect opportunity for Klei to make the endgame more interesting and challenging. But it's totally optional. What a shame.

What I love about your post is that it is 100% wrong about the experience ever being a lonely one, and you condemning the caves and ruins for not providing an interesting endgame.  That’s exactly what was added in DST with fuelweaver.  The endgame in DS was always replacing Max on the throne, the story continues in DST which is effectively a sequel.

34 minutes ago, Master Wolf said:

Well you definitely did not read what I posted, @Luminacompletely understood my point. You are being irrational and defensive, so it is kind of pointless to talk to you right now. I will respond when you have calmed down.

Right now the gaming industry is shifting towards micro transactions. I just laid out my fears (FFS I literally said "I fear"). You do not defend the issue with getting random gifts though, you are satisfied with it as long as they don't charge for it. And you can only buy skins for the Forge though, if you want to buy other skins, you have to use the marketplace.

All lootboxes are horrible because they are gambling, and they prey on people. Just like in the alcohol and cigarette industry, most of the profits come from the minority of addicts that purchase their products. And not only is this bad by itself, it is being experienced by kids and altering their brains. Having addictions messes up your brain, the dopamine pathways are not a joke. People think that addiction is just a lack of control, IT IS NOT. They just say that because they do not understand that addictions cause neurons to form connections that are really hard to change. Which is why addicts tend to relapse, or change their addictions. Once you start with an addiction, you will have the addictive connections in your brain for most of your life, the "cravings" don't stop.

I would disagree when you consider the "Concerns Regarding Halloween Skins" post, it got 211 responses and 8,094 views. This is just the best example of many posts like this. There shouldn't be a marketplace in the first place for this, most people do not like it. There were so many people that posted about how they hated it, and felt so frustrated that they couldn't have access to the skins they wanted. And the worst part of your comment, is that you try to defend your "stance" by disregarding 2/3 of your comment. "You don't need skins to play the game"...... that is such an arrogant and hypocritical statement that it almost made me disregard everything you said. You spend 2/3 of your post talking about skins, but then said that stupid thing........... And not only that, you talk down to people that think differently than you, which are most people. Most people want the skins in the game, THEY are what brings most people back to the game. People I know ranging from casual to hardcore gamers, they come back to the game because of the skins. Hell, A LOT of the posts in the forums are about skins. So your contradicting views are in the minority.

I posted the thing about getting the skins as a reward, because it is true. 10 years ago, all of the skins WOULD have been rewarded to the player. It is not about being a "spoiled child" it is just the fact that games are moving towards micro transactions. Because if this **** happened 10 years ago, people would have crucified Klei.

1) Lumina and you are both at a basic level of understanding which is why I’m attempting to educate you on things you don’t know you don’t know.  It’s not that I don’t understand what you’re saying, but there is a pile of clear evidence that Klei is not going to gouge their customers.  I listed those reasons, you may need to read them for the first time.

The games industry is not “moving toward microtransactions” they’ve been here for the better part of a decade.  They aren’t inherently a bad thing either.  Using cosmetic items to help fund development and free content allows players with extra money to pay more, and players without not to miss out on gameplay and content.  Done responsibly, it has some real advantages over paid DLC, as I have already stated.

I understand there were a lot of complaints about halloween skin prices during the two week period they took to stabilize, but it was the shouting of dim children without an understanding of supply and demand.  With prices so high people were trading in like crazy which drove the prices down again.  A number of normally dropping skins have been $20 and none of the forge content is tradeable which eliminates a similar concern.

You’re complaining about taxes, and I’m pointing out that there’s a difference between building public roads and subsidizing the costs of huge corporations.

[Lumina]

Thanks for insulting me for no reason at all, i always appreciate it in a debate.

I don't dislike microtransaction and i'm happy Klei choose a fair system with Forge. I just hope they will never sell loot boxes, because it's a totally different thing. I trust Klei, it doesn't prevent me to encourage them to continue to be fair, because it's important.