Post launch feelings

[-Variant]

I feel really bad writing this.
I'm honestly genuinely disappointed in how this beta turned out.
This is going to be a rant, cause I am certainly bothered by how this played out. I feel like we should've waited for this one.

I am willing to admit my views on this beta might've been soured from the start, day one was also one of the worst days IRL for me in the year so I'm willing to put some of that under the carpet but man... was this certainly not ideal.

We went an entire beta's duration with 4 patches. Two of which having broken major skills in Willow's tree for weeks.
We've gotten a patch on both Fridays that lend to a skill breaking and being unusable for the following week twice.

Willow and Bernie almost went the entire beta missing their alignments entirely. Actually, Bernie did. He's still missing them, they still don't work. Willow literally got hers working last second, right before launch. That sucks. It feels bad having to go through an entire beta's duration quite literally missing portions of a character's skill tree. I can understand the team being hard pressed on time to get these fixed but these felt super particularly off...

Credit where credit's due, I saw a good portion of the feedback being accepted and added in, but at the same time I feel like there was a lot that went overlooked. For better or worse I know a good mix of my feedback was added in/overlooked, which is to be expected, but then I see many, many Bernie threads with wonderful suggestions and genuine feedback over his portion of the skill tree for it to mostly go unchanged. We got some real nice changes in the release/day before patch though, so fair enough there.

On the note of unchanged stuff, what was changed was Willow's two major fire skills. I saw a lot of folks requesting they be toned down a notch and in return they got rather controversial cool downs. There was a kneejerk reaction to these with a lot of folks saying it was too much, yet they remain. I feel like the team might know what they want to do with these, but it felt weird how silent they were with it.

I'm super genuinely grateful that towards the end we had developers actually giving us their insight over the changes. I wish this happened more often... those small posts to acknowledge our thoughts quelled so many screaming voices, it was incredible.
I wish these had happened earlier into the beta... I still have so many lingering questions about the choices that went into this one.

As for thematic choices, this is where my personal views spill into my bias.

I've waited years for an update to Willow, like, actually. Dare I say her first character update since she was added to DST was decisive. Her rework was... upsetting, to some. Me, included. More of a Bernie rework, the forums had to demand she be given her own immunity back that day.
Since that day, I've waited for something... anything. Hell, Wortox and some of the other characters even got 'mini' touch up-updates. Willow got nothing. Like, actually nothing for years.
So seeing this beta that means so much to me go like this... kinda stings. A lot. I feel like it could've waited, or have been given more time to cook. I think I'd rather have waited for the break to be over for it to release, as controversial as that sounds to say.

And then, personal, extra personal bias, I don't like the fire mage direction. That's entirely an opinion of mine. Not once in any past media has Willow ever flicked her hands to shoot fire, or cast them from her mind. (It's called a mind cast in the files, aha.)
I would've so, so preferred she chuck matches around visually instead of fires appearing from her magic wheel.

And then there's the Frostjaw, too. Which... him and Wigfrid I can't comment on all that much, since they're not my main focus, and I feel like I'm rambling enough as is but... I'm a bit disappointed all he currently does is exist to trade stuff. He's very out of place. I think with his current lack of loot/functionality he's one of the least interactive 'NPCs' in the game so far.

Oh and... no skins or short for the two spotlight characters of the entire beta too. Feels really bad.
I know I'm rambling, I have to get this off my chest. It feels bad talking like this, it really does. I promise I know the team is trying their best, nothing against them.

Major TLDR: I'm super disappointed in how rushed this beta felt. I would've wished for it to stay in beta longer, or have come at a later date. I feel the team bit off more than they could chew trying to add a new NPC, two skill trees, and managing everything else they're doing on the side... so much stuff that feels majorly undercooked.

[Mysterious box]

9 minutes ago, -Variant said:

And then, personal, extra personal bias, I don't like the fire mage direction. That's entirely an opinion of mine. Not once in any past media has Willow ever flicked her hands to shoot fire, or cast them from her mind. (It's called a mind cast in the files, aha.)
I would've so, so preferred she chuck matches around visually instead of fires appearing from her magic wheel.

Something that bothered me with the fire mage angle is that the only attack skills outside of dot attacks are her alignment skills to an extent I get why but it feels weird when most of the time the only fire skills I tend to use are fireball and lunar fire raiser with combustion just used for farming more embers mostly.

[Theukon-dos]

In regards to the beta feeling "messy", I feel like that's been a common thread throughout the From Beyond arc. And not a particularly good one either. I swear, every single update we've gotten sense it begun has had huge problems, either technical or mechanical.

 

Taking Root: The rifts introduced wheren't properly avoiding bases. This wouldn't be anything special, except that it somehow this wasn't actually fixed until after the update went live.

Terrors Below: Acid Rain and it's associated mechanics where genuinly so awful that the entire system got gutted until a month later where they where updated to atleast be tolerable.

Skill Spotlight for Woodie, Wormwood, and Wolfgang: Wormwood and Wolfgang's skill trees where genuinly terrible. Wormwood got a large overhaul to his skill tree after the fact due to peer pressure. But Wolfgang's is still blander than eating boiled tree bark.

Host of Horrors: Lunar Hail, like acid rain, got significant nerfs so that it could be "fixed later". Though atleast with Lunar Hail, said nerfs where largely inconsequential and only really applied for megabasers.

Skill Spotlight: Wigfrid and Willow: I mean, you said it all really.

 

It's genuinly quite concerning how rough development has been for the last 6-7 months. And I'm really worried about Klei's ability to stay on course at the current rate.

[Evelo]

Completely understandable. Many of us Wormwood fans fought for change and we got it. It isn't perfect but his skillset is much better now. Keep bringing attention to it and Klei will listen. I highly recommend highlighting the issues and explain how they make you feel. Maybe offer a suggestion but focus more on how it feels in a gameplay setting. The biggest issue I had with Wormwood was having 2 start points and how that drastically affected insight spending. I believe Willow will get the proper skillset she deserves. This might have been a rushed event (partially) just for the Christmas Break deadline. I feel after the break we will see more changes to both Wigfrid and Willow. "A spark without kindling, is a goal without hope."

[Szczuku]

35 minutes ago, -Variant said:

And then, personal, extra personal bias, I don't like the fire mage direction. That's entirely an opinion of mine. Not once in any past media has Willow ever flicked her hands to shoot fire, or cast them from her mind. (It's called a mind cast in the files, aha.)
I would've so, so preferred she chuck matches around visually instead of fires appearing from her magic wheel

Yeah

As weird as it's gonna sound: Willow's fire magic is boring. Like, really boring. Thematically speaking.

*Repeats -Variant's "no prior evidence of magic" argument*

I feel like it'd be much more thematically interesting and funnier if Willow's fire tricks actually came from her being a trainwreck of a human that she is.

Like, if she holds her lighter, she can blow air into it to create a flamethrower-like effect (which later gets aligned). Explanation: I mean she most likely grew up homeless so good chance she has that whiskey breath baked into her lungs.

If embers looked... like actual embers, she could toss them around- works as a replacement of her first combustion skill.

Of course at this point it's too late to change anything. I just wanted to point out that Klei could've done better

[Ridley]

1 hour ago, -Variant said:

And then, personal, extra personal bias, I don't like the fire mage direction. That's entirely an opinion of mine. Not once in any past media has Willow ever flicked her hands to shoot fire, or cast them from her mind. (It's called a mind cast in the files, aha.)
I would've so, so preferred she chuck matches around visually instead of fires appearing from her magic wheel.

I am not disagreeing with your opinion on the fire mage direction or thoughts on the outcome of the beta. I didn't play it and don't have the time to play Willow for the foreseeable future. She does seem to cast fire in her update trailer though.

https://youtu.be/TKKXXKtFiQw?t=72

(Edit: How does one post a youtube video instead of a plain link? I don't link how sketchy the link looks.)

[Szczuku]

1 minute ago, Ridley said:

She does seem to cast fire in her update trailer

If you look carefully, in the supply closet there's her lighter, sitting on a shelf. Good chance it got confiscated and she used it off-screen to light that fire. No idea why the 2019 devs kept that hidden but alas

[Paxtonnnn]

3 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

If you look carefully, in the supply closet there's her lighter, sitting on a shelf. Good chance it got confiscated and she used it off-screen to light that fire. No idea why the 2019 devs kept that hidden but alas

The way it causes an EXPLOSION that Willow is barely effected by is interesting and could've been some kind of hint at something unnatural, though yeah, even if she was a little magic the skill tree turned it up way too much imo

[Hornete]

21 minutes ago, Ridley said:

She does seem to cast fire in her update trailer though.

18 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

If you look carefully, in the supply closet there's her lighter, sitting on a shelf. Good chance it got confiscated and she used it off-screen to light that fire. No idea why the 2019 devs kept that hidden but alas

13 minutes ago, Paxtonnnn said:

The way it causes an EXPLOSION that Willow is barely effected by is interesting and could've been some kind of hint at something unnatural, though yeah, even if she was a little magic the skill tree turned it up way too much imo

While what actually occurred here for that massive explosion is up for debate, I always liked to think there were some combustible materials on that shelf. These bottles look suspicious! And while scrambling to fight with the shadow creature, silly mishaps of using the lighter and these potential combustible materials might have lead to the explosive mishap.

About the magic aspect, I would have wished they went within the 'psychosis' route.

I've always enjoyed DS/T's take on magical systems. At the end of the day, the sanity bar is just a mana bar. You use magical items and expended 'mana', only, the mana was losing a little bit of your mind and going loony. And those hallucinations once you expend your 'mana'? Oh yea! They can hurt ya!

I may have rambled there, but point is, I would have liked them to follow this route of magic with the mind(How I think that might specifically look? I don't know, but things like lighting fires while insane was so thematically fun to me!), rather than the strange branched off embers system they went for.

And y'know, fits with the whole alignment thing of devoting your mind to a side.

[Squidyfoo]

I did wonder why the animated short was like that until I saw this.

Looks like they're going to explain why they chose to make a short like this. As for the outfits I'm guessing just because it's a Holiday thing.

[cybers2001]

Every day we get closer to Annie from League of Legends.

[Antynomity]

I hope they finally slow down next year, for the things they want to accomplish these short ahh betas won't and aren't cutting it as we speak, every update this year wasn't fully finished or fleshed out (some still aren't like host of horrors).

 

Even though I hate the implementation of skill trees, I would tolerate them if they were all of quality, made sense and actually made characters more close to eachother in power levels, but that just isn't happening if we continue like this.

 

I want the updates to be good, to be instant classics but they simply aren't currently.

[Mike23Ua]

30 minutes ago, Paxtonnnn said:

The way it causes an EXPLOSION that Willow is barely effected by is interesting and could've been some kind of hint at something unnatural, though yeah, even if she was a little magic the skill tree turned it up way too much imo

Willow? The same Willow who uses her own Sanity levels to shrink and grow and animate to life an inanimate stuffed doll?

Anyone who has ever watched the X-men would know that Jean Grey (Aka Phoenix) wasn’t always JUST able to control fire, first she was a powerful mind mending telekinesis (as powerful as Xavier himself even!) Ahem: However.. through learning that she could telekinetically manipulate a flame, she also was able to harness the powers of fire.

Willow hints around at this by doing crazy stuff such as surviving a massive explosion in a locked orphanage closet which engulfs the entire building while she casually walks out of the burning building unharmed.

These were willows powers BEFORE being thrown into the constant, to you know.. make that shady deal by shaking Maxwells hand and being given more control over what she desired most?

Anyway my point here is that: Fire Mage makes sense.

[Yuuko]

While I really love the art work with Wig and Willow together in the snow, I felt really confused that the short had absolutely NOTHING to do with them...  No new skins for them either...  Does Klei just hate Willow or something?  This would have been a great opportunity to show where her new powers came from.  Instead we don't even SEE her...  Why did the characters come out now instead of just turning on Winter Feast?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - As much as I *really* wanted a Willow re-fresh or skill tree I was very scared that getting it too early would lead to it being weak and uninspired.  I feel like Klei just employs 0 people who actually like Willow.

Just mechanically speaking - the purpose and use of the lunar flame is hurt more by CD then by probably any other nerf it could have received.  Its clunky to use, gets cancelled easily, doesn't have amazing damage, AND costs a lot.  The CD on top of all of this?  Don't even start on shadow spell, even with no cd it was questionably useful but WITH CD?  Yeah, dumpster.

My disappointment in the Bernie tree is immeasurable.

Its the most basic, boring, and uninspired thing possible.  There is only 1 skill in the Bernie tree that actually does anything, and it costs so much you can only take it if you pass on fire skills.

Really wish Klei woulda just waited on Willow.

[Anthony_L3hr]

Well, at least we can pick up BERNIE! now. Definitely hoping the devs brush up Willow before or after holiday break. I hate to see this much distraught over Willow.

[Yuuko]

I want to come back and say a few positive things.

1) We can pick up Bernie regardless of sanity.  This is a pretty big QOL for Bernie.  This will help feel better putting him out knowing I don't have to leave him out until I can bring my sanity back up.  Really odd its not a skill perk b/c the Bernie tree is absolutely BARREN of perks that are worth taking, but I won't complain about free.

2) With the alignment perk Bernie can grow in lunacy.  We can finally use Bernie on lunar island or in storms.

And yeah, that's pretty much it.

[BezKa]

Almost like the skill trees were a bad idea from the start, and Willow deserved a proper touch up for her character instead of a bunch of disconnected buffs

[Uedo]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Willow? The same Willow who uses her own Sanity levels to shrink and grow and animate to life an inanimate stuffed doll?

Anyone who has ever watched the X-men would know that Jean Grey (Aka Phoenix) wasn’t always JUST able to control fire, first she was a powerful mind mending telekinesis (as powerful as Xavier himself even!) Ahem: However.. through learning that she could telekinetically manipulate a flame, she also was able to harness the powers of fire.

Willow hints around at this by doing crazy stuff such as surviving a massive explosion in a locked orphanage closet which engulfs the entire building while she casually walks out of the burning building unharmed.

These were willows powers BEFORE being thrown into the constant, to you know.. make that shady deal by shaking Maxwells hand and being given more control over what she desired most?

Anyway my point here is that: Fire Mage makes sense.

Didn't she just like fly too close to an evil sun, basically?

[Lovens]

I agree with you on the general feeling of "rushed/undercooked release". It's so bizzare to see them add 4 new bosses recently (3 lunar mutants and Frostjaw) and release the last one during Winter's Feast and yet he is the only one of the 4 new ones to not get its own ornament. Or figure sketch. Even the shadow trio got their own ornaments (makes me wonder why, they are not even a proper boss fight. Meanwhile, Shadow Pieces, an actual raid boss doesn't have their own ornaments).

Will we now have to wait for a whole new year to get Frostjaw's ornament with the next Winter's Feast? Heck, he doesn't even drop a generic plain festive bauble, it's literally one extra line of code copied and pasted from Eye Of Terror or something similar. Even such tiny detail but it feels so underwhelming to fight him and see nothing drop at all, and even the boots you have to trade fish for. Without knowing about trading you'd just walk away with nothing from that fight.

[-Variant]

3 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Like, if she holds her lighter, she can blow air into it to create a flamethrower-like effect (which later gets aligned). Explanation: I mean she most likely grew up homeless so good chance she has that whiskey breath baked into her lungs.

Some other friends suggested using her lighter or matches more. I'd love that.

3 hours ago, Hornete said:

About the magic aspect, I would have wished they went within the 'psychosis' route.

Agreed.

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

1) We can pick up Bernie regardless of sanity.

2) With the alignment perk Bernie can grow in lunacy.  We can finally use Bernie on lunar island or in storms.

I was super excited to see Bernie recalling being added. I'm a bit sad it doesn't work for what I was hoping it'd be added for, that being dropping his aggro mid fight. It seems he mustn't have aggro to be recalled right now, which is what I had hoped for perk would be nice for.

Bernie works regardless of aligned in Lunar areas now. It's super nice, waited years for it!

[Cheggf]

I kept my expectations low and expected them to turn her into a dumb mage, so I wasn't surprised or disappointed when they turned her into a dumb mage 

[Hupo]

I can understand you. I always pay more attention to the character I love and hope he/she can be perfect.

It seems DST is not the most important project for Klei now. They have Rotwood and Dread Pilots. They work hard but they do need more time or people.

5 hours ago, -Variant said:

Oh and... no skins or short for the two spotlight characters of the entire beta too. Feels really bad.

Yes. No Ancient series for Wig and Willow. No item skins. It's a little disappointing. As I say, they don't have enough time.

[Sir Christopher]

I was impressed that they maintained the skill cooldown, especially the shadow skill. Bernie only having 1 skill that really makes it worth it, the lack of a special attack for him, which is insane just thinking about it.

Synergy with fire items? More fire damage? more efficiency? some different type of fire, using rarer items like Fiery Pen?, possibility of setting fire to creatures that are not possible like shadows?. Gives the possibility for Willow to use fire as its main source of damage?. No, now we can deal 25% more melee damage to mobs that are on fire

2 reworks 1 skill tree later... I definitely think Klei doesn't like Willow.
This skill tree in my opinion as willow main was 5/10, before the nerf it was 7/10. Bernie needs something more than just basic skills. Regeneration (very low), maximum life (ok) and movement speed, seriously who puts points in this skill.

Shadowfire was already a skill that didn't hit a single target properly and was inferior to lunar fire when used to attack multiple mobs. I was sad to see that shadow fire was nerfed along with lunar flare, why? Wasn't it supposed to be adjusted to make it equivalent to lunar flare?
man, I'm going to have the same feeling when the other characters were receiving more elaborate reworks, and even readjustments for others. And what is the feeling?
the feeling of being abandoned

I remember in the beta when Willow didn't even have a lighter and fire immunity.

In the world of Wolfgang, Wandas, Willows deserve nerfs.

 

[GenomeSquirrel]

2 hours ago, Uedo said:

Didn't she just like fly too close to an evil sun, basically?

Spoiler

originally, it was Jean realizing her potential, later it was retconned into a universal force because they wanted Jean back, but not that set of powers, and let's not forget her initial revival with different name and powers that was later retconned into a clone after marrying cyclops and having a kid, the baby was of course sent to the future, as one does

 

But on topic, I am glad the be able to use the burn mechanic reliably and with no danger to base.

Burning structures and items like coal haven't been developed, but we got a built in flamethrower via affinity

as for the mage part, not what I wanted; but pragmatically if it frees us from 7 points for a great torch, I'll take it

[maxwell_winters]

5 hours ago, -Variant said:

There was a kneejerk reaction

Unfortunately, that seems to be a major trend in how Klei addresses complaints.

• People didn't like monkey raids spawning too often, not scaling with a number of players and punishing you for self-defense? Just make their spawn chance extremely low.
• People didn't like lunar hail killing mobs? Just make them immune to damage.

There was a positive example of adding a pillar to counteract post-rift earthquakes. However, other than it, Klei often resort to overreaction rather than look for middle ground when the content isn't received very well.