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3 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

and this would be a benefit because:

The game's whole combat system is about dodging enemy attacks and then using the window of time where they can't attack after to get in your own damage. The windows of time allotted are meant to limit how many attacks you can perform in order for ensure the player has to go through the back and forth of dodging and attacking a certain amount of times before the mob dies. Inventory cancelling allows for a stark increase in the amount of attacks someone can perform in these open windows, which ultimately makes almost all combat threats much less threatening than they would be otherwise. Ultimately, its a matter of game balance, and one could also argue that it presents a very unfair advantage to players on keyboard and mouse as opposed to a controller.

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How did this conversation go from "is animation cancelling ok", to "what is speed running".

Anyways, we know the developers are ok with exploits that make the game fun. Dst isn't the only game in the franchise with "fun" (I personally don't like them) exploits, and they cared enough to leave them in DS single player as a separate game version.

They wouldn't have bothered if they didn't care about the few players who were upset with their removal (it was a super small amount of people who cared, like literally 5 in this forum).

It's ok for games to evolve a bit beyond what the developers intended. That's how a relationship between the gamers and the developers grows. When developers resist it, it usually only ever hurts the people who enjoyed it, and no one benefits from it. 

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5 minutes ago, Mario384 said:

The game's whole combat system is about dodging enemy attacks and then using the window of time where they can't attack after to get in your own damage. The windows of time allotted are meant to limit how many attacks you can perform in order for ensure the player has to go through the back and forth of dodging and attacking a certain amount of times before the mob dies. Inventory cancelling allows for a stark increase in the amount of attacks someone can perform in these open windows, which ultimately makes almost all combat threats much less threatening than they would be otherwise. Ultimately, its a matter of game balance, and one could also argue that it presents a very unfair advantage to players on keyboard and mouse as opposed to a controller.

not only is inventory cancelling not much better than other methods, it's fully doable on a controller with no issues

this is the very definition of making a mountain of a molehill 

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Animation cancelling speed up atk by approximately 11%(from 13~14 frames to 12 frames at most) if you do it WITHOUT FAILING and at MAX SPEED. This skill itself is not a very big improvement for DPS. 

And for the downside, you'll have to make much effort doing this, and trust me you're never going to like it when having to constantly doing this in some long boss battles like Toadstool. An expert kiting skill is also needed since concentrating on animation cancelling makes you harder to dodge Bosses' attacks. No need to say that even most experienced players sometimes fail once or twice when animation cancelling. 

All these hard work exchanges a DPS improvement not really significant. Imo it's fair for all players in the current game version.

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13 minutes ago, Mario384 said:

The way described to do it on a controller in the other thread sounds extremely uncomfortable

except it's not

13 minutes ago, Mario384 said:

which is something I don't think any developer should support people doing.

nothing about the game encourages you to do it, anim cancelling has a list of downsides far longer than any potential upsides

just to make myself clear here, anim cancelling requires consecutive tick-perfect actions, it gives a very minor increase in sustained DPS and if you mess up at any point you pretty much lose any advantage you might've gained by doing it in the first place, it has been in the game since the beginning and I have no idea why all of a sudden it's this huge issue that needs to be corrected, and I'm curious where all this misinformation regarding anim cancelling is coming from

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This is stupid. It's not a problem. The problem is slowing down the attack rate at all.

 

There is such a compulsion in the community to ruin everyone's fun because an arbitrary standard people want others to adhere to.

And then when it comes to problems like zigzagging when picking up items, your character pausing completely when holding F to attack, there isn't enough pushback for it.

 

I hate that there are literal agents of terror that strive to ruin the fun for others.

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5 minutes ago, chirsg said:

This is stupid. It's not a problem. The problem is slowing down the attack rate at all.

 

There is such a compulsion in the community to ruin everyone's fun because an arbitrary standard people want others to adhere to.

And then when it comes to problems like zigzagging when picking up items, your character pausing completely when holding F to attack, there isn't enough pushback for it.

 

I hate that there are literal agents of terror that strive to ruin the fun for others.

almost feels like people want it removed because they can't stand there being a tiny advantage that they can't pull off consistently

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Just now, Guille6785 said:

almost feels like people want it removed because they can't stand there being a tiny advantage that they can't pull off consistently

And I'll admit that I can't pull it off consistently enough for it to matter for me personally, but honestly, animation cancelling right now is slowly becoming something necessary due to the fact that with every update, the base attack rate slows down. I'm not sure what the hell is causing this on the developer's end, but it's bs.

 

I don't fancy myself someone mature and I am a very very petty person who loves the misfortune of others as entertainment, but even I don't want animation cancelling to make it out of the game.

 

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As someone who just watched the world record for Super Mario 64 get broken by a mere 1 second in a speed run- I’ve drawn the conclusion that Speed Runners ruin video games, Period..

Animations should last as long as the developers Intended them to- rather that makes my game more enjoyable or not..

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3 hours ago, Gashzer said:

The biggest failure of our DST community has been normalizing cheating and exploits. :wilson_cry:

That hasn’t really been a “new” thing, though. DS/T exploits have been popularized since DS has got ROG, back in 2014. They could have totally fixed them, but often chose not to for player creativity (Fire farms, one of the oldest utilizations of pig/bunnymen respawn mechanics with fire, was even intentionally kept during the mass bugfix update and those were discovered in ROG).

It’s likely not going to fade anytime soon. Sure, I’m sure interactions will change/adjust here and there, but I highly doubt they are going to rapidly patch every single bug that is not intentional, especially given the sheer amount that players are used (since the discovery of winters feast lights in glowcaps lasting even at 0% to the attack speed relating to swapping items). 

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1 hour ago, Mario384 said:

The game's whole combat system is about dodging enemy attacks and then using the window of time where they can't attack after to get in your own damage. The windows of time allotted are meant to limit how many attacks you can perform in order for ensure the player has to go through the back and forth of dodging and attacking a certain amount of times before the mob dies. Inventory cancelling allows for a stark increase in the amount of attacks someone can perform in these open windows, which ultimately makes almost all combat threats much less threatening than they would be otherwise. Ultimately, its a matter of game balance, and one could also argue that it presents a very unfair advantage to players on keyboard and mouse as opposed to a controller.

Why should I care about players that play on console and use controller? You should realize that DST was mainly made for PC and it is in developer's best interest to care about making their game fun on console but the PC users don't want to receive nerfs just because you are jealous or care for some balance in an open world survival/sandbox game where there is no goal and you are not competing with other players in a normal playthrough.

I know that speedrunners are competing and they themselves want to have more skill expression in games, that's why so many games intentionally leave animation cancelling.

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2 hours ago, Primalflower said:

I think that you should be allowed to call yourself a speedrunner even if all you do is attempt to play games as fast as you can, because that's what the hobby kind of is...!

Some of the replies make it seem like you must be competing on a board to classify as a speed runner, but its really not that exclusive.  I think the defining features of a speed runner's play that is different from just playing a game fast is 1) specific goals and 2) timed on goal achievement.  If I'm playing just trying to get all the bosses done fast I'm not really speed running b/c once I get those bosses done I'm not ending my game, or clocking my times.  While rushing its likely I'm setting up other aspects of the game, not focused on this one goal.  Once I play for the purpose of clocking my time at goal completion and make decisions based entirely around achieving that goal quicker even if it betrays other goals if I should stick around in the game then I am speed running.

1 hour ago, Mario384 said:

Add a stategraph tag which prevents moving equipped items around, slap it on the attack animation. You can keep the classic movement attack cancels and remove the inventory-related ones.

This is one of the oddest things imo...  ppl act like Klei couldn't have "fixed" this at any point in the last ~9 years of the game's life...  Just like void walking.  Klei knows its there, but is it actually important to fix?  If random players were falling outside the map it would be a pretty high priority fix but if it only happens when players take specific actions, doesn't cause any other game instabilities, and isn't game breaking then the priority is low and possibly zero - as in Klei may have zero intention of fixing it and we should just consider it an obscure feature of the game.

9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

As someone who just watched the world record for Super Mario 64 get broken by a mere 1 second in a speed run- I’ve drawn the conclusion that Speed Runners ruin video games, Period..

Animations should last as long as the developers Intended them to- rather that makes my game more enjoyable or not..

Except the only reason anyone is playing SM64 at this point is b/c speed running.............. so really it keeps games active far beyond the standard game's life span as dedicated players uncover even more tech to shave a few moments off a run, or get the magical combination of perfect sections in the same run.

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18 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

As someone who just watched the world record for Super Mario 64 get broken by a mere 1 second in a speed run- I’ve drawn the conclusion that Speed Runners ruin video games, Period..

Animations should last as long as the developers Intended them to- rather that makes my game more enjoyable or not..

how do you manage to make the worst take that I've ever seen on the forums, it's legitimately impressive how a take can be that bad

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4 hours ago, Retepeter said:

Animation cancelling is a strategy in dst where you interrupt you attack animation with an other shorter animation (equipping an item, moving in some cases)

I made this thread to peacefully discuss it's balance and place in the game.

Pros:

It lets player with good timing do extra DPS, greatly rewarding skill.

You can practice it and get consistent results. Again, this makes the game more skill expressive.

Usually neglegable difference outside of speedrunning, because the majority of time isn't spent hitting bosses, rather gathering resources for the boss

Cons:

It's likely not an intentional mechanic (I'd love to hear a dev's view on this and if they tough about "patching" it)

It negates certain weapons' downsides(weremoose, beef, whips) and some say it's unbalanced to increase those attacking methods's attack speed, "they are slower for a reason"

I have heard both sides of the argument and personally think it should be kept for melee weapons but nerfed for slower attacks but I'd love to hear everyone's points

4 hours ago, Well-met said:

the pro argument falls flat when you realize most people automatize key bind exploits. There is no "timing" or "skill" necessary.

Animation canceling is not a bug nor an unintended feature; it's a part of most games. If you have the skill and time to master it, that's good for you. What makes DST in unique situation is its open-source nature. This results in client mods that can nullify any combat skills. For instance, the mod linked below can help you execute animation canceling flawlessly without requiring practice:


https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3012277703


This game is fundamentally a co-op game/single player, speed-running or rushing content is mostly a way to keep things exciting, especially for players who have exhausted the game's content, speed-runners represent a small portion of the player base, and their experiences shouldn't be the basis for balancing in-game features.

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49 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

since the discovery of winters feast lights in glowcaps lasting even at 0% to the attack speed relating to swapping items). 

Oh man if this stopped being a thing..... 

I mean I guess I'd farm CC until I had enough crown shards to replace my endless glowcaps filled with festive lights..

But I'd be super cheesed off about it. I spent so long collecting festive lights my god.

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4 hours ago, lakhnish said:

You have to realize that being able to cancel animations is what really differentiates DST from DS.

In DS, you are forced to carry out your button inputs and just leads to slower combat overall and is one of the reasons I personally don't like DS combat. 

In DST, before anim cancelling via swapping items to increase your attack speed became so visibly prominent, just about everyone has cancelled their attack in some way, whether it be to start a spider or pig war or stop your attack when you were kiting.

Trying to touch it could just to lead to slower combat for everyone, which will just be extremely annoying.

We still have an attack reduction bug that hasn't been addressed either.

I've said it in my thread; the bug reports forum is las vegas. Whatever happens in the bug tracker, stays in the bug tracker.

General at this point is literally a ground for propaganda conflict. In and of itself, it's not a bad thing, but one of those things where the prevailing ideology is unfortunately the loudest. The way to win is to make noise. Bug tracker is arguably the most productive thread in the entire forums, but the thing is, you report bugs to the developers, not the players.

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Animation canceling is a non issue. The DPS increase is almost negligable in the majority of scenarios, especially casually and/or with multiple players around, and I would argue that under most circumstances it's not even worth the effort of doing. The max DPS increase is assuming you do it perfectly or near-perfectly. If you mess it up or there is lag, there's a bigger loss of DPS vs. the gain. Removing it does nothing at all to make the game better except hurt the few players who do it, it's not a necessary skill to progress.

Removing animation canceling would also remove things such as "fake hitting" mobs in order to make followers attack, act sooner out of eating, stopping mid attack to kite, or switching to tools on the fly, or canceling an action when you didn't mean to or in a pinch. Probably more things that even casuals will probably be doing. Or are we gonna say that those things are exempt from the idea of "animation canceling" for some arbitrary reason?

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

As someone who just watched the world record for Super Mario 64 get broken by a mere 1 second in a speed run- I’ve drawn the conclusion that Speed Runners ruin video games, Period..

Animations should last as long as the developers Intended them to- rather that makes my game more enjoyable or not..

I'm sorry, but this is such a bad take. You didn't even elaborate why and how speedrunners are ruining video games. But I can tell you their existence almost never hurts game design in any way. And they clearly know of and intentionally kept animation canceling in. It wasn't in DS, but it is in DST. Why would they retroactively add it if it they didn't want it? Let alone for so long? It just generally makes the game feel more smooth, and doing it for fighting, again, doesn't affect you in any way other than that you can't (or won't) do it. Its existence doesn't affect you. You're free not to do it, and you don't have to.

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29 minutes ago, Shuckster said:

Animation canceling is a non issue. The DPS increase is almost negligable in the majority of scenarios, especially casually and/or with multiple players around, and I would argue that under most circumstances it's not even worth the effort of doing. The max DPS increase is assuming you do it perfectly or near-perfectly. If you mess it up or there is lag, there's a bigger loss of DPS vs. the gain. Removing it does nothing at all to make the game better except hurt the few players who do it, it's not a necessary skill to progress.

Removing animation canceling would also remove things such as "fake hitting" mobs in order to make followers attack, act sooner out of eating, stopping mid attack to kite, or switching to tools on the fly, or canceling an action when you didn't mean to or in a pinch. Probably more things that even casuals will probably be doing. Or are we gonna say that those things are exempt from the idea of "animation canceling" for some arbitrary reason?

I'm sorry, but this is such a bad take. You didn't even elaborate why and how speedrunners are ruining video games. But I can tell you their existence almost never hurts game design in any way. And they clearly know of and intentionally kept animation canceling in. It wasn't in DS, but it is in DST. Why would they retroactively add it if it they didn't want it? Let alone for so long? It just generally makes the game feel more smooth, and doing it for fighting, again, doesn't affect you in any way other than that you can't (or won't) do it. Its existence doesn't affect you. You're free not to do it, and you don't have to.

animation cancelling is not going anywhere. literally nobody wants it gone.

it's one facet of it that's exploitable.

 

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34 minutes ago, Well-met said:

animation cancelling is not going anywhere. literally nobody wants it gone.

it's one facet of it that's exploitable.

And its existence of this alleged exploit affects you, and the people complaining how? Even if it's an unforseen consequence of anim canceling, is that really the only arguement against it? I haven't seen a compelling reason for its removal other than what boils down to "it wasn't intended." So what? Sometimes things that were not forseen and even glitches become features. Klei knows it exists. The controller aspect of the arguement could be fixed by, you know... making controller's control better? I don't understand why people who aren't going to even interact with certain mechanics (like unintrusive speedrun tricks, and competitive mechanics) have this urge to complain about them and try to convince devs to remove them or whatnot when it doesn't actually affect them. You can enjoy the game just fine without them, and it doesn't affect you by existing.

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49 minutes ago, Evelo said:

I don't think getting 1 extra attack off is worth the trouble of animation canceling. I'm just going to hold F and be on my merry way.

I'm similar, however, there are times where stringing attacks is so slow due to the current framework of the recent patches. 

If it doesn't get fixed, I might need to learn how to animation cancel myself.

And if anim cancel gets patched out while the problem of slow attack rate exists, I'll advocate every day for a change.

I'll even fly over to china and speak to Ma Huateng.

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7 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

As someone who just watched the world record for Super Mario 64 get broken by a mere 1 second in a speed run- I’ve drawn the conclusion that Speed Runners ruin video games, Period..

Animations should last as long as the developers Intended them to- rather that makes my game more enjoyable or not..

People complete the game as fast as they can. If the game is not balanced around them they ruins the game the least by definition. They adapt to what the game has, not cry that it's too easy/hard

11 hours ago, lakhnish said:

You have to realize that being able to cancel animations is what really differentiates DST from DS.

In DS, you are forced to carry out your button inputs and just leads to slower combat overall and is one of the reasons I personally don't like DS combat. 

I'm aware, my idea would be to let you interrupt your attack, but then be unable to start an other until your "normal" attack would have went through.

Again my problem is with minimal Ising slower attack speeds' downsides

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