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Animation canceling


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7 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Why should I care about players that play on console and use controller? You should realize that DST was mainly made for PC and it is in developer's best interest to care about making their game fun on console but the PC users don't want to receive nerfs just because you are jealous.

I agree. Balancing a keyboard mouse game around controllers is dumb. By this logic they should make you only able to bind 1 key in Minecraft (for pc) (plus wasd and jump) to not have an unfair advantage against mobile players who can only use a joystick and their finger to mine and place. People who play on controllers are usually aware that it's a disadvantage compared to kb+m and they choose to keep using one. 

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13 hours ago, Retepeter said:

Animation cancelling is a strategy in dst where you interrupt you attack animation with an other shorter animation (equipping an item, moving in some cases)

I made this thread to peacefully discuss it's balance and place in the game.

 

Pros:

It lets player with good timing do extra DPS, greatly rewarding skill.

You can practice it and get consistent results. Again, this makes the game more skill expressive.

Usually neglegable difference outside of speedrunning, because the majority of time isn't spent hitting bosses, rather gathering resources for the boss

Cons:

It's likely not an intentional mechanic (I'd love to hear a dev's view on this and if they tough about "patching" it)

It negates certain weapons' downsides(weremoose, beef, whips) and some say it's unbalanced to increase those attacking methods's attack speed, "they are slower for a reason"

 

 

I have heard both sides of the argument and personally think it should be kept for melee weapons but nerfed for slower attacks but I'd love to hear everyone's points

Klei should make the animations faster by default so attack canceling is unessisary. Artheritis and discomfort is not a skill.:-(

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Just now, Jakepeng99 said:

Klei should make the animations faster by default so attack canceling is unessisary. Artheritis and discomfort is not a skill.:-(

That's one way to fix it but spam clicking is present in a lot of games and I don't think its complained about as much

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10 hours ago, Shuckster said:

And its existence of this alleged exploit affects you, and the people complaining how?

not using it puts every player at a disadvantage and affects literally every match-up against giants and epics.

any more silly questions?

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2 minutes ago, Well-met said:

not using it puts every player at a disadvantage and affects literally every match-up against giants and epics.

any more silly questions?

you're right, I didn't think about how the existence of this technique would affect the current meta in the competitive ladder, I think season 7 of the DST World Championship will be full of people beating their competitors by killing deerclops faster than them

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I don't like or use it, but I also don't really care if it stays.

 

The only exploits I think need to be fixed are ones that a player can easily cause unintentionally, and have save-corrupting implications on the player.  In Singleplayer there was a bug where if you completed a Thing and world-hopped, it would transfer your current movement speed to the new character you picked. So you could be overcharged WX and worldhop and any character you switched to would have that movement speed.  I did this on accident, and I did not like having a free movement speed buff permanently applied to me so I think it should have been fixed.

 

You have tp intentionally learn how to, and then practice animation canceling. You're consenting to do it yourself, and it doesn't have any permanent negative effects on the world or your character. It's not an exploit that should be fixed.

 

If you're obsessed over fairness and advantages, just ban anyone from your server that you see doing it, or leave servers where you see other players doing it...or just deal with it. It's not a big issue in my eyes.

 

 

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You forgot a few cons:

- Unreliable on servers with higher ping / Unfair for non-host players

- Unfair for controller players

2 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

People are throwing around the word "disadvantage" around way too comfortably. 

The game doesn't revolve around animation cancelling. It is not balanced around it. You are not at a disadvantage if you don't use it. 

Debatable... that's basically saying you're not at a disadvantage when having 30% less DPS (or killing bosses 30% slower)

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24 minutes ago, b l a n k said:

You forgot a few cons:

- Unreliable on servers with higher ping / Unfair for non-host players

- Unfair for controller players

Debatable... that's basically saying you're not at a disadvantage when having 30% less DPS (or killing bosses 30% slower)

30% would be an insane advantage, I think its more like 10% tops.  Also any mistake might cost you more then -10%

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35 minutes ago, b l a n k said:

You forgot a few cons:

- Unreliable on servers with higher ping / Unfair for non-host players

- Unfair for controller players

Debatable... that's basically saying you're not at a disadvantage when having 30% less DPS (or killing bosses 30% slower)

My point is, for it to be a disadvantage you would have to be underperforming from what is considered the norm. Animation cancelling is not the norm, it's a niche only the sweaty (sorry Guille) use to squeeeeeeze out a little more damage. 

It's (using it) an advantage at worst (a negligible one). And a PC only quirk at best.  

Calling normal attack a disadvantage in comparison, imo is disingenuous, and walks into dangerous territory of saying animation cancelling is encroaching on normal gameplay. It's not.

It's not the boogyman people are trying to paint it to be.

Edit: As a console player, if I think there's anything that feels unfair... It's the lack of geometric placement. But that's no one's fault.

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37 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

30% would be an insane advantage, I think its more like 10% tops.  Also any mistake might cost you more then -10%

After more tests, I'd say it's closer to 20%. With a Dark Sword, I kill Deerclops in 24 seconds with the animation cancel, against 29 without it.

Of course, if you consider mistakes, you lose DPS

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3 minutes ago, b l a n k said:

After more tests, I'd say it's closer to 20%. With a Dark Sword, I kill Deerclops in 24 seconds with the animation cancel, against 29 without it.

Of course, if you consider mistakes, you lose DPS

I'm pretty sure the actual math is known for it, and I think I've heard 11%.  I could be wrong, but that is really not that much damage for most cases.  You might not even get an extra attack in if you aren't also tanking - and if you are tanking then console can anim cancel just fine.

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I tried doing this and quickly ragequited trying. It's tok annoying to use in practice, feels like forge all over again where you expect yourself or are expected to do most DPS but can't do that min max BS by using exploits XD

It's not convenient and personally, minions do a better job at doing actual DPS. It's not skillful when it's exploitable by some keybinds as mentioned.

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Just now, HowlVoid said:

Chat gpt about to be the #1 speedrunner, you better watch out.

tas aren't new.  chatgpt would probably make a horrible tas.

Lotta salt in here like fr

Its a marginal amount of damage.  Unless you're a competitive speed runner its unlikely you could calculate a loss of any significance.  If you are a speed runner then you should appeal to have a console category added so you aren't placed against pc players.  This isn't uncommon if there are differences between game versions.  Of course if someone plays on console AND anim cancels then its just a skill issue and you can git gud about it lol

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3 hours ago, b l a n k said:

You forgot a few cons:

- Unreliable on servers with higher ping / Unfair for non-host players

- Unfair for controller players

Why do you bring up ping? If you have 200-300 ping you won't even be able to kite. There's nothing unfair about it, it is your choice if you decide to play on a server with high ping.

Why do console/controller players matter to us PC players? Removal of animation cancelling will just piss off PC players for no reason. Obviously like I stated previously it is developer's problem to make console players experience better but not at our expense and I don't think that removal of animation cancelling would make any difference to console players.

It seems like you have never seen how big the modding community of DST is and how big of an "advantage" we have over console players, average PC modder's game will look like a completely different game even with only clientside mods. According to your logic does that mean that mods shouldn't exist on PC because console doesn't have them? 

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7 hours ago, Well-met said:

not using it puts every player at a disadvantage and affects literally every match-up against giants and epics.

any more silly questions?

Yeah I got another silly question: "How so?" Doing this doesn't save that much time vs bosses. It's not some meta thing that'll destroy you or anyone who don't do it. It's the difference between one attack typically if you kite, and otherwise only saves you like a few seconds, a few seconds that for most players don't even matter. And again this is assuming the connection doesn't screw you over if you're online and you don't just mess it up, hurting you more than it honestly helps. The game is NOT revolved around it, it's not necessary to player progression, and it's far from necessary to use it against bosses in any compacity! It's such a minor thing. It's only really affects tryhards and speedrunners. I'll ask the silly question again "how does it affect you?" Cause the only way it affects honestly does seem to be that you can't/won't do it for whatever reason, or you're a controller user and it's annoying as hell to do cause of how bad the controls are. No wonder 00petar00 had that knee-jerk reaction when I mentioned "removing it" in that one post I made. It really does seem like people just want to bring everyone else down instead of lifting themselves up. That's not attack canceling's fault, it doesn't affect balancing or your ability to fight the monsters! That's Klei's fault that the controls aren't the best, and this is coming from a PC user that uses controller! This is literally the least of our worries. This is the least of EVERYONE'S worries.

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5 minutes ago, Monkey Cups said:

This is the most pointless debate I've seen on these forums in a while. Y'all must be bored.

Better then the old days when people thought that 2+ pre-rework abigails would destroy game balance when multiplayer first came out

Either way, this is good entertainment, cant make this stuff up ∠( ᐛ 」∠)_

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