Animation canceling

[Retepeter]

Animation cancelling is a strategy in dst where you interrupt you attack animation with an other shorter animation (equipping an item, moving in some cases)

I made this thread to peacefully discuss it's balance and place in the game.

 

Pros:

It lets player with good timing do extra DPS, greatly rewarding skill.

You can practice it and get consistent results. Again, this makes the game more skill expressive.

Usually neglegable difference outside of speedrunning, because the majority of time isn't spent hitting bosses, rather gathering resources for the boss

Cons:

It's likely not an intentional mechanic (I'd love to hear a dev's view on this and if they tough about "patching" it)

It negates certain weapons' downsides(weremoose, beef, whips) and some say it's unbalanced to increase those attacking methods's attack speed, "they are slower for a reason"

 

 

I have heard both sides of the argument and personally think it should be kept for melee weapons but nerfed for slower attacks but I'd love to hear everyone's points

[Well-met]

the pro argument falls flat when you realize most people automatize key bind exploits. There is no "timing" or "skill" necessary.

[lenship2]

if you remove it the community will find other ways to do it, and changing the way items are equipped would be detrimental to 'normal' gameplay

[Retepeter]

Just now, lenship2 said:

if you remove it the community will find other ways to do it, and changing the way items are equipped would be detrimental to 'normal' gameplay

I think it's possible to change, for example give the players and invisible attack cd timer and regardless of if they equip and item or not they can only attack when the cd is finished

 

Just now, Well-met said:

the pro argument falls flat when you realize most people automatize key bind exploits. There is no "timing" or "skill" necessary.

Well the game shouldn't be balanced around cheating

[lakhnish]

23 minutes ago, Retepeter said:

I think it's possible to change, for example give the players and invisible attack cd timer and regardless of if they equip and item or not they can only attack when the cd is finished

You have to realize that being able to cancel animations is what really differentiates DST from DS.

In DS, you are forced to carry out your button inputs and just leads to slower combat overall and is one of the reasons I personally don't like DS combat. 

In DST, before anim cancelling via swapping items to increase your attack speed became so visibly prominent, just about everyone has cancelled their attack in some way, whether it be to start a spider or pig war or stop your attack when you were kiting.

Trying to touch it could just to lead to slower combat for everyone, which will just be extremely annoying.

We still have an attack reduction bug that hasn't been addressed either.

[Gashzer]

38 minutes ago, Well-met said:

the pro argument falls flat when you realize most people automatize key bind exploits. There is no "timing" or "skill" necessary.

The biggest failure of our DST community has been normalizing cheating and exploits. 

[Dextops]

Just now, Well-met said:

the pro argument falls flat when you realize most people automatize key bind exploits. There is no "timing" or "skill" necessary.

this game becomes easy once you enable super god mode

[Guille6785]

51 minutes ago, Well-met said:

the pro argument falls flat when you realize most people automatize key bind exploits. There is no "timing" or "skill" necessary.

quality misinformation hours

49 minutes ago, Retepeter said:

I think it's possible to change, for example give the players and invisible attack cd timer and regardless of if they equip and item or not they can only attack when the cd is finished

the game literally already has this

[HowlVoid]

53 minutes ago, Well-met said:

the pro argument falls flat when you realize most people automatize key bind exploits. There is no "timing" or "skill" necessary.

This is untrue, it was tried by the Chinese community but they never achieved the same amount of quality animation cancelling as those who do it naturally and practice 

[Primalflower]

I think it disproportionately empowers the host of the server or otherwise those with better connections and makes speedruns kind of boring to look at and i could do without specific iterations of it

Spoiler

it disproportionately empowers the host of the server or otherwise those with better connections

And i don't mean this in a "this is unbalanced in pvp way" more so i mean it feels bad to see someone perform an action on a server that you cannot for a reason like lag in a pve setting and i would rather just not have it

[Guille6785]

11 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

makes speedruns kind of boring to look at and i could do without specific iterations of it

last I checked we didn't balance the game around speedruns

also kinda iffy to take it upon yourself what should or shouldn't be done in speedruns without you being a speedrunner yourself ngl

[_zwb]

27 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

This is untrue, it was tried by the Chinese community but they never achieved the same amount of quality animation cancelling as those who do it naturally and practice 

I'd say it's the opposite, with mods you can automate animation cancelling perfectly, at the perfect frame to cancel. As long as the your internet connection is good mods will be better than manual work, always.

42 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

The biggest failure of our DST community has been normalizing cheating and exploits. 

Since when have exploits became not normal? DST is a sandbox game after all, how's there a normal or correct way to play when "your world, your rule" is a thing? Hence how comes exploits are normalised if the norm doesn't exist?

[Dextops]

4 minutes ago, _zwb said:

I'd say it's the opposite, with mods you can automate animation cancelling perfectly, at the perfect frame to cancel. As long as the your internet connection is good mods will be better than manual work, always.

You’re right, but I’m confused why this is talking point at all in this discussion? It makes no sense for Klei to balance around cheating and mods as said earlier in the thread.

[Primalflower]

3 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

last I checked we didn't balance the game around speedruns

also kinda iffy to take it upon yourself what should or shouldn't be done in speedruns without you being a speedrunner yourself ngl

Rn im experiencing the worlds first known recorded instance of me feeling what would have been the actual intended use case for the confused reaction. I wasnt stating a fact or saying that the game should be balanced around speedrunning much more i was saying a very subjective thought as to why i would probably be okay with the mechanic going away, thats why i used language like "i could do without it" and "i would rather just not have it" over "it should be removed" or anything like that

But... besides that... dont you have really weird gatekeepy definitions as to who can call themselves a speedrunner? The last time a conversation was had about this you implied that you're not allowed to call yourself that unless you had a specific time in comparison to others or were actively competing, or some other definition of the term that wasnt just...trying to play the game really fast

[DajeKotlyar]

It high risk high (or actually not so high) reward thing. No need to patch or remove

[Guille6785]

6 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

I wasnt stating a fact or saying that the game should be balanced around speedrunning much more i was saying a very subjective thought as to why i would probably be okay with the mechanic going away

this is a forum where developers read feedback; stating that you'd prefer if it was removed is functionally the same thing as supporting the stance that it should be removed, which yes, is exactly what "balancing the game around speedruns" would imply as speedruns were 1 of the 2 arguments you brought up

6 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

But... besides that... dont you have really weird gatekeepy definitions as to who can call themselves a speedrunner? The last time a conversation was had about this you implied that you're not allowed to call yourself that unless you had a specific time in comparison to others or were actively competing, or some other definition of the term that wasnt just...trying to play the game really fast

my "gatekeepy" definition was that only people who do speedruns should be called speedrunners (shocking I know, I said this because people in the community have an annoying habit of referring to random youtubers as speedrunners even if they have never actually done speedruns which conflates the term); some people in that thread including you chose to interpret that in a completely different way, accusing me of supposedly saying that "only world record holders should call themselves speedrunners" (???? I literally never said or implied that)

I also just think it's funny in general that you've gone around multiple threads accusing me of gatekeeping speedrunning when I'm literally the person that has done the most out of anyone by far to bring DST speedrunning to a wider audience and lower the entry barrier which is the complete opposite of gatekeeping (so I'd appreciate if you stopped spreading misinformation about me considering I'm literally the single worst person you could accuse of gatekeeping speedrunning wtf)

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

The biggest failure of our DST community has been normalizing cheating and exploits. 

Dude do you play games?  This is how literally EVERY gaming community behaves, and its not a failure.  Animation cancelling is not only a perfectly valid unintended feature, it typically supports more skill expression to the point that many games only change to include it more purposefully (read - every fighting game combo.)  Watching any speed run or competitive game is going to show exploitation of any bug that the devs have decided to not fix.  If the devs leave it in it becomes part of the game and really.

The recent(ish) change to pan flute shows that IF Klei cared they could stop it but that it would probably also be a horrible change (fr revert pan flute I hate the anim lock on this.)

[Primalflower]

20 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

his is a forum where developers read feedback; stating that you'd prefer if it was removed is functionally the same thing as supporting the stance that it should be removed, which yes, is exactly what "balancing the game around speedruns" would imply as speedruns were 1 of the 2 arguments you brought up

i don't know how to tell you that bringing a subjective thought to a conversation isn't the same as calling for it to be removed, even in a situation where t hose thoughts are read by developers. This thread isn't like, a poll as to whether animation cancelling should be removed where if the developers see that enough people say they would prefer if it was gone then they'll instantly start getting rid of it, they'd probably be able to tell that my thought was just my own personal thing..!

20 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

my "gatekeepy" definition was that only people who do speedruns should be called speedrunners (shocking I know, I said this because people in the community have an annoying habit of referring to random youtubers as speedrunners even if they have never actually done speedruns which conflates the term); some people in that thread including you chose to interpret that in a completely different way, accusing me of supposedly saying that "only world record holders should call themselves speedrunners" (???? I literally never said or implied that)

Your definition is still weird and kind of shuts people out even when you phrase it in an inviting way for the sake of the debate here! I think that you should be allowed to call yourself a speedrunner even if all you do is attempt to play games as fast as you can, because that's what the hobby kind of is...! People are allowed to call some goober youtuber a speedrunner even if they've never uploaded a speedrun before, if they're playing the game fast, which, if a youtuber was called a speedrunner, then the person who called them that probably thought such..!

20 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

I also just think it's funny in general that you've gone around multiple threads accusing me of gatekeeping speedrunning when I'm literally the person that has done the most out of anyone by far to bring DST speedrunning to a wider audience and lower the entry barrier which is the complete opposite of gatekeeping (so I'd appreciate if you stopped spreading misinformation about me considering I'm literally the single worst person you could accuse of gatekeeping speedrunning wtf)

You can host events and maintain places of discussion for a thing and contribute money to a thing while still having something of an unhelpful attitude towards some specific aspect of it, this goes for absolutely anything. When I mention that you have something of a gatekeepy attitude towards the label of a speedrunner, i'm not necessarily saying that you're ill intentioned or that those other things you did are worthless, but at the same time, those other things you did don't negate the first thing, so i'll probably still end up thinking it and mentioning it to people when it rarely comes up in conversation ... !

[Dextops]

16 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

You can host events and maintain places of discussion for a thing and contribute money to a thing while still having something of an unhelpful attitude towards some specific aspect of it, this goes for absolutely anything. When I mention that you have something of a gatekeepy attitude towards the label of a speedrunner, i'm not necessarily saying that you're ill intentioned or that those other things you did are worthless, but at the same time, those other things you did don't negate the first thing, so i'll probably still end up thinking it and mentioning it to people when it rarely comes up in conversation ... !

I’m confused by what you mean by a gate keeping attitude. I think bringing in many new people into the idea of speedrunning and basically building a community around it is the exact opposite of gatekeeping. There are definitions to being a speedrunner that aren’t just “go fast” and I don’t think it’s gate keepy to think like that.

[Primalflower]

1 minute ago, Dextops said:

I’m confused by what you mean by a gate keeping attitude. I think bringing in many new people into the idea of speedrunning and basically building a community around it is the exact opposite of gatekeeping. There are definitions to being a speedrunner that aren’t just “go fast” and I don’t think it’s gate keepy to think like that.

I stated in my message above (its okay if u missed it i typed a lot) that its possible to have a weird attitude towards a thing while otherwise doing things that are helpful to that thing. That attitude doesn't negate the good things that you're doing, but at the same time, those good things don't erase that attitude, and that attitude is worth acknowledging. I think that there are absolutely many definitions to the term 'speedrunner' that aren't just 'go fast', but I think there are many definitions of the term speedrunner that lock people out for some reason. it's weird to have this label only be applicable towards people who actively participate in some community or contribute to some scoreboard, much less, some specific eschelon in that scoreboard, when the hobby, at its core, doesn't have to include that.

[Dextops]

6 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

it's weird to have this label only be applicable towards people who actively participate in some community or contribute to some scoreboard, much less, some specific eschelon in that scoreboard, when the hobby, at its core, doesn't have to include that.

I disagree a lot with this. Competition really is a core part of speedrunning and cutting it out removes a lot of what speedrunning is. I don’t see it as gate keepy at all and I’d say it actually opens it up to more people because there is that sense of competition to push people to actually continue to speedrun, it’s this competition that makes people innovate and make/find new strategies just to shave some time off. I don’t see a definition like this gate keepy at all, you can disagree, but in my eyes it’s really the exact opposite.

[lenship2]

19 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

I think that you should be allowed to call yourself a speedrunner even if all you do is attempt to play games as fast as you can, because that's what the hobby kind of is...!

that leads the people who actually participate in speedrunning to be left a niche and unrecognized area, as already seen in this community

i, too, genuinely used to think speedrunning was just rushing the bosses because of a few specific youtubers, but once i discovered channels like walik and guille's i learnt the more specific definitions of speedrunning in dst

playing the game fast is rushing, speedrunning is attempting to get to a specific goal using the most quickest means possible to achieve an objectively lower time

it's overall harmful to the speedrunning community to call yourself a speedrunner just because you play the game fast compared to others, since speedrunning is a more specific hobby than a general playstyle.

[Dextops]

1 minute ago, lenship2 said:

that leads the people who actually participate in speedrunning to be left a niche and unrecognized area, as already seen in this community

i, too, genuinely used to think speedrunning was just rushing the bosses because of a few specific youtubers, but once i discovered channels like walik and guille's i learnt the more specific definitions of speedrunning in dst

playing the game fast is rushing, speedrunning is attempting to get to a specific goal using the most quickest means possible to achieve an objectively lower time

it's overall harmful to the speedrunning community to call yourself a speedrunner just because you play the game fast compared to others, since speedrunning is a more specific hobby than a general playstyle.

I think you summed it up better than I ever could’ve 

[Primalflower]

1 minute ago, lenship2 said:

 

Speedrunning is a niche thing...! It's certainly not unrecognized, it's just in its own bubble a lot of the time, which is okay..! This community probably represents that pretty well, theres a specific little section of people that congregate and absolutely aren't unheard, but aren't the overarching community. that's okay, and fine. It's not harmful to call yourself something if you think you are that something.

5 minutes ago, Dextops said:

I disagree a lot with this. Competition really is a core part of speedrunning and cutting it out removes a lot of what speedrunning is. I don’t see it as gate keepy at all and I’d say it actually opens it up to more people because there is that sense of competition to push people to actually continue to speedrun. I don’t see a definition like this gate keepy at all, you can disagree, but in my eyes it’s really the exact opposite.

I think you're just into the competitive side of things more than the hobby for what it is, and that's fine, even if saying it in a sentence feels kind of weird, I'm being genuine when I say that. I think that speedrunning as a hobby, fundamentally, does not inherently include competition in the specific sort of way being described here, and by extension of that, I think people are allowed to call themselves or others speedrunners even if they're not doing it in an organized fashion or X or Y precondition.

[Mario384]

Add a stategraph tag which prevents moving equipped items around, slap it on the attack animation. You can keep the classic movement attack cancels and remove the inventory-related ones.