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Animation canceling


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9 minutes ago, Monkey Cups said:

This is the most pointless debate I've seen on these forums in a while. Y'all must be bored.

If I am being honest, yeah it really is. I just don't like when people complain about mechanics that don't affect them, such as speedrunning strats or competititve mechanics. I don't get it.

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2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Why do you bring up ping? If you have 200-300 ping you won't even be able to kite. There's nothing unfair about it, it is your choice if you decide to play on a server with high ping.

Why do console/controller players matter to us PC players? Removal of animation cancelling will just piss off PC players for no reason. Obviously like I stated previously it is developer's problem to make console players experience better but not at our expense and I don't think that removal of animation cancelling would make any difference to console players.

It seems like you have never seen how big the modding community of DST is and how big of an "advantage" we have over console players, average PC modder's game will look like a completely different game even with only clientside mods. According to your logic does that mean that mods shouldn't exist on PC because console doesn't have them? 

The amount of assumptions you got from a simple con listing, your mental gymnastics are truely impressive!
"Why do you bring up ping?" Because it's a con.

The thing with unintended features is they won't work well because of how unintended they are, and, on the opposite side, you can make them work better by tweaking your gameplay or straight up your game (with mods like Don't Starve Alone, in the case of animation cancelling).

If you play with friends, some of them (to not say all of them) won't be able to animation cancel even if they have the skills to do it, because of their ping. It's a fact, there is no need to be delusional about it.

I never said I cared, nor I said it matters, I didn't even say I was against animation canceling, it's a hard-to-pass habit embedded in your muscle memory once you get used to it. However, when you want to make an argument, you have to look at everything, you can find more pros and cons if you dig further.

5 hours ago, Shosuko said:

I'm pretty sure the actual math is known for it, and I think I've heard 11%.  I could be wrong, but that is really not that much damage for most cases.  You might not even get an extra attack in if you aren't also tanking - and if you are tanking then console can anim cancel just fine.

That must be wrong, it can't be as low as 11% even with a larger confidence interval. I'm actually surprised no one made the maths in this topic, it's like the main reason why people use it... Where are our frame-perfect analysts at ?

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41 minutes ago, b l a n k said:

That must be wrong, it can't be as low as 11% even with a larger confidence interval. I'm actually surprised no one made the maths in this topic, it's like the main reason why people use it... Where are our frame-perfect analysts at ?

As stated earlier in this thread by fufuji:

On 10/19/2023 at 2:00 AM, Fufuji said:

Animation cancelling speed up atk by approximately 11%(from 13~14 frames to 12 frames at most) if you do it WITHOUT FAILING and at MAX SPEED. This skill itself is not a very big improvement for DPS. 

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Just my 50 cents. I know its suposed to be healthy but I cant with some coments.

Some people could never. And blame the ones who can to be exploiting the game when it requires a lotta timing and also demands ur mouse to do that instead of other things. I mean, you can, but again, spliting u in other part. It requires focus. U actually gaming. And making it more dinamic.

 

The amount of jelousy or just butthurt when people coment towards this is not the place where I want to be around, so. 

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3 hours ago, b l a n k said:

The amount of assumptions you got from a simple con listing, your mental gymnastics are truely impressive!
"Why do you bring up ping?" Because it's a con.

That is a "con" of all multiplayer games and it isn't something that klei can fix, it shouldn't influence any balance decisions.

3 hours ago, b l a n k said:

The thing with unintended features is they won't work well because of how unintended they are, and, on the opposite side, you can make them work better by tweaking your gameplay or straight up your game (with mods like Don't Starve Alone, in the case of animation cancelling).

Animation cancelling is part of skill expression, removing it means you are dumbing the game down. When has klei stated that this was not an intended feature and even if it wasn't don't you think that they have already decided to keep it in the game or otherwise it wouldn't be possible for this long?

3 hours ago, b l a n k said:

If you play with friends, some of them (to not say all of them) won't be able to animation cancel even if they have the skills to do it, because of their ping. It's a fact, there is no need to be delusional about it.

Why should that be my problem? If I am playing with friends, we play together and that means that me being able to do animation cancel would actually be helpful to the group. What have said that is delusional? I mentioned ping being a much bigger problem that developers can't solve, this is quite minor compared to that and game isn't  balanced around it, so if you can take advantage of it that's good if not it doesn't really matter that much. 

3 hours ago, b l a n k said:

I never said I cared, nor I said it matters, I didn't even say I was against animation canceling, it's a hard-to-pass habit embedded in your muscle memory once you get used to it. However, when you want to make an argument, you have to look at everything, you can find more pros and cons if you dig further.

There are literally no cons to it existing in the game, it doesn't affect balance and DST isn't a competitive game (even though a lot of competitive games have animation cancel),

Like others have stated this looks like jealousy from you and other people that want to find something to complain about because you can't bring any good arguments against it.

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3 hours ago, b l a n k said:

The thing with unintended features is they won't work well because of how unintended they are

reminder that Klei have already explicitly acknowledged attack cancelling and done something about it, they actually nerfed it a bit but otherwise made sure that it would still result in a slight dps increase over default, idk what else to say about this, this literally is not up for debate

 

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13 hours ago, _zwb said:

As stated earlier in this thread by fufuji:

My bad, I missed that, but this is blatantly false.

"speed up atk by approximately 11%(from 13~14 frames to 12 frames at most) if you do it WITHOUT FAILING and at MAX SPEED"

Without failing [almost] at max speed, let's take a look instead of theorising with invented values. I tried to cut the videos basically from the frame I hit it for the first time, to the frame I hit it for the last time, so it's easier to calculate based on the duration of the video, plus a rule of three.

We can see 57 seconds are needed to kill a deerclops with a spear normally, against 48 seconds with attack cancelling at max speed (with 2 fails). Which means attack cancelling can theorically increases your DPS up to about ~20%.

Now, in a real situation, it varies depending of the individual's skills, PC specs, lags, and mods. However, we have to keep in mind a "real situation" is barely an argument here, when we are talking about a feature used when playing as the host, and sometimes with Don't Starve Alone. We already altered the variables in our favor, after all.

If I have a subjective opinion to say (like basically most replies I get), I'd say people thinking it's "a tiny bit advantage" or "a slight dps increase" are greatly underestimating how powerful attack canceling is. There is a reason why it's addictive

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1 hour ago, b l a n k said:

We can see 114 seconds are needed to kill a deerclops with a spear normally,

Dude, you killed dc twice on 2nd clip. It took 57~58 secs.

On 10/19/2023 at 8:00 AM, Fufuji said:

Animation cancelling speed up atk by approximately 11%(from 13~14 frames to 12 frames at most) if you do it WITHOUT FAILING and at MAX SPEED. This skill itself is not a very big improvement for DPS. 

The correct number would be 14 frames to 10 frames. Character start doing damage at frame 9 (11 frames if whip or wanda clock, making 16 down 12 for wanda) after the pre_attack state. need extra 1 frames for swap clothe animation, that 10 frames total. And that would only be in situation enemy stand still or you dont kite at all, 40% increase in dps.

In real life situation, it would be like this:

If i attack beefalo, i can hit beef 6 times before dodge, instead of 5 times. (20% increase in damage)
If i attack treeguard, i can hit 4~5 times, instead of 3~4 times.

Basically, with animation cancel, you can make additional 1 attack between dodge, as the room for dodge are often longer that the attack needed.

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Remove the middle man, just speed up attack rate of whips, mounted beefalo and moose attack.

Alot of people dont want to remove attack cancelling (me included) we just want slower attacking weapons to attack at regular speed so difference between using or not using attack cancelling is less for these weapons. This will help out console players and not effect players that use attack cancelling anyway currently.

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15 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

Dude, you killed dc twice on 2nd clip. It took 57~58 secs.

The correct number would be 14 frames to 10 frames. Character start doing damage at frame 9 (11 frames if whip or wanda clock, making 16 down 12 for wanda) after the pre_attack state. need extra 1 frames for swap clothe animation, that 10 frames total. And that would only be in situation enemy stand still or you dont kite at all, 40% increase in dps.

In real life situation, it would be like this:

If i attack beefalo, i can hit beef 6 times before dodge, instead of 5 times. (20% increase in damage)
If i attack treeguard, i can hit 4~5 times, instead of 3~4 times.

Basically, with animation cancel, you can make additional 1 attack between dodge, as the room for dodge are often longer that the attack needed.

LOL I'm stupid, thanks for correcting me. Damn, talk about methodology. I modified my post, thanks

I'm glad we finally have a post like this on the topic

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15 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

The correct number would be 14 frames to 10 frames. Character start doing damage at frame 9 (11 frames if whip or wanda clock, making 16 down 12 for wanda) after the pre_attack state. need extra 1 frames for swap clothe animation, that 10 frames total. And that would only be in situation enemy stand still or you dont kite at all, 40% increase in dps

Attack speed is capped at a minimum of 0.4 (12 frames), the situation you described is impossible

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1 hour ago, Tranoze said:

Dude, you killed dc twice on 2nd clip. It took 57~58 secs.

The correct number would be 14 frames to 10 frames. Character start doing damage at frame 9 (11 frames if whip or wanda clock, making 16 down 12 for wanda) after the pre_attack state. need extra 1 frames for swap clothe animation, that 10 frames total. And that would only be in situation enemy stand still or you dont kite at all, 40% increase in dps.

In real life situation, it would be like this:

If i attack beefalo, i can hit beef 6 times before dodge, instead of 5 times. (20% increase in damage)
If i attack treeguard, i can hit 4~5 times, instead of 3~4 times.

Basically, with animation cancel, you can make additional 1 attack between dodge, as the room for dodge are often longer that the attack needed.

Before some certain update (I don't remember sorry) 10 frames is achievable. After that update  all attacks are capped at 12 frames. This partially explains why beefalos and alarming clocks can speed up to exactly as fast as normal weapons (12 frames).

2 hours ago, b l a n k said:

My bad, I missed that, but this is blatantly false.

"speed up atk by approximately 11%(from 13~14 frames to 12 frames at most) if you do it WITHOUT FAILING and at MAX SPEED"

Without failing [almost] at max speed, let's take a look instead of theorising with invented values. I tried to cut the videos basically from the frame I hit it for the first time, to the frame I hit it for the last time, so it's easier to calculate based on the duration of the video, plus a rule of three.

We can see 57 seconds are needed to kill a deerclops with a spear normally, against 48 seconds with attack cancelling at max speed (with 2 fails). Which means attack cancelling can theorically increases your DPS up to about ~20%.

Now, in a real situation, it varies depending of the individual's skills, PC specs, lags, and mods. However, we have to keep in mind a "real situation" is barely an argument here, when we are talking about a feature used when playing as the host, and sometimes with Don't Starve Alone. We already altered the variables in our favor, after all.

If I have a subjective opinion to say (like basically most replies I get), I'd say people thinking it's "a tiny bit advantage" or "a slight dps increase" are greatly underestimating how powerful attack canceling is. There is a reason why it's addictive

 

This situation happens when your atk interval is 15 frames. However, atk interval is constantly changing, and 15 frames doesn't happen really often in 1 player server according to my personal gaming experience. I feel that 13 or 14 frames is more often the case and if it's 13, you can even land 7 hits on Dragonfly per turn without a speed boost or animation cancelling. A 11% improvement as I said before maybe not fair for animation cancelling, as the average value of atk interval is not clear.

Thank you for the videos. You're indeed a animation cancelling expert!

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7 hours ago, b l a n k said:

We can see 57 seconds are needed to kill a deerclops with a spear normally, against 48 seconds with attack cancelling at max speed (with 2 fails). Which means attack cancelling can theorically increases your DPS up to about ~20%.

sooo i took your videos but only a small 12 second section where you did nearly perfectly and compared how long it took to do 1020 damage in each video

Spoiler

with anim cancelling, you did 1020/12, or exactly 85 dps

without, you did 1020/14.5, around 70 dps

to convert that into a percentage i did 

((anim cancel dps)-(normal dps))/(normal dps*(10^-2))

so basically its a 125/6 percent increase, or about 21%

5 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

Attack speed is capped at a minimum of 0.4 (12 frames), the situation you described is impossible

0.4 being the lowest attack interval proves the video demonstrated the highest possible attack speed (which did exactly 85 dps, equal to 34/0.4), meaning that:

animation cancelling at its best gives a 21% damage increase

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Those who want and are able to use this "animation canceling" to obtain a bit more dmg per time unit ... use the trick; and those that don't.. don't?! I see no point to why some people care about how others play DST - this is not a competitive game, you won't win or lose anything if using this or not. Is not some "game breaking" exploit for KLei to care "fixing" it. If anything, it just shows - if more and more people are willing to employ such tactic - why giving more attack delay wasn't a good direction (even of ms magnitude, over time is noticeable, more-so if combat's done on regular basis).

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