The Fuelweaver could use a QoL update

[Falkenpelz]

To add a little something, I do not want to nerf FW and take away some of his attacks and I agree that the preparation needed is the right thing. Maybe the inventory management is a personal skill issue more than anything, but at the end of the day I'm with the people who say that 400hp per shadow is too punishing and that the mechanic of auto-targeting FW instead of the shadows makes this even worse.

[ZombieDupe]

1 hour ago, Falkenpelz said:

I probably just need to git gud at inventory management, but a little QoL update that adds player scaling for FWs heals and lets you auto-target the woven shadows instead of FW when his shield is up would be great.

If the health scales, so should the loot. Otherwise, people will just want to fight it alone because that's easier, killing any small number of coop play left. Making attack frequency and intensity (like the amount of shadow crawlers spawned) instead of health scaling with player numbers nearby makes more sense.

Also the inventory management, while fine, has one massive issue for swapping items on the go, if you spam equip to switch between 2 items, there will be a delay between equipping that makes the other item either go in another slot because it hasn't detected that the newly equipped item is no longer there, or it will hop on your cursor instead of the very obvious now-free inventory slot available. In single player this does not happen, items switch places extremely quickly. Not certain  if this can be fixed by the devs at all, maybe it's a server issue that can't be fixed, but I guess I'll repot it as a bug anyway as it has always been an issue that was never addressed.

Make sure you also turn off lag compensation if you haven't done so already, that algorithm, which is enabled by default for making your game look "smooth" is the worst thing ever made for this game since you usually can't dodge things properly and land as much hits with it enabled.

[cybers2001]

I've soloed FW many times, but I agree the healing mechanic is too punishing. The real difference between a player calling the fight easy and a player calling the fight hard comes down to consistency with weather paining the woven shadows.

[NightfallsCurse]

AFW is perfect as it is, and no tweaks shall enter the atrium

[Ornge]

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

so the optional end game boss of a game that allows rolling back should be killed without practise? did you know that all the people that agrees that the boss is perfect have suffer learning it? if you dont want to "git gud" you have many options to make the fight easier

Congratulations, you just proved my point. The bossfight isn't actually good, you just got used to it. What does being able to rollback or fuelweaver being optional change anything about my argument?

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

we already got nerfs to hounds and monkey raids and now people ask for nerfs on bosses that you dont have to fight until you are overprepared...

I never said I wanted to nerf him, I asked for a rework. A fix to fuelweaver so that you don't have to torture yourself to learn how to fight him.

2 hours ago, lakhnish said:

I am good at Ancient FW and Pearled Crab King but I absouletly despise PCK but love AFW and there's a reason for it, despite the two being kind of the same in terms of what's involved inventory management wise.

Again, nothing about the fuelweaver is designed to be fun alone. It's the opposite when you read into it. You loving the fuelweaver is an opinion that you have developed, not one the mechanics of the game encourage. I'd love to hear what the reason for you enjoying fuelweaver is because I can't figure it out.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, Ornge said:

Congratulations, you just proved my point. The bossfight isn't actually good, you just got used to it

isnt good or isnt a fight you enjoy? is very different because for me a many more is the best fight, your opinion isnt the truth of the universe. I liked it even when i was bad at fighting him

2 minutes ago, Ornge said:

What does being able to rollback or fuelweaver being optional change anything about my argument?

rolling back makes you able to practise the fight and being optional means that you can prepare as much as you need unlike deerclops who kill newbies because they were underprepare when they arrive. Isnt that hard to understand

before, when i was learning the fight, i always bring many sanity food, weather pains and lazy explorers to make sure i can finish the fight even if i make mistakes which are really easy to farm (and if someone has problems farming them means that isnt suppose to fight him yet..)

5 minutes ago, Ornge said:

I never said I wanted to nerf him, I asked for a rework. A fix to fuelweaver so that you don't have to torture yourself to learn how to fight him.

so you want fix something that isnt broken because you refuse to learn... what a surprise in these days where popular games are just pressing few keys like LoL, has mechanics to make the game impossible to lose like It takes two or are beyond easy like Lost ark...or all the phone videogame industry based on "dont make an effort, just give me a couple of dollars"

7 minutes ago, Ornge said:

Again, nothing about the fuelweaver is designed to be fun alone

again, you subjective opinion isnt The Truth

biased statements...

[lakhnish]

10 hours ago, EATZYOWAFFLEZ said:

It's hard enough to prevent the heals (a weatherpain can't even guarantee anything) and when they happen it's 400 hp!

  If you throw a Weather Pain at FW every time you break a shadow hand, it's very unlikely that FW will be able to eat a minion.

Even if FW does eat a minion, if you hold F and tank, that extra hp he regained wittles away very fast.

12 minutes ago, Ornge said:

You loving the fuelweaver is an opinion that you have developed, not one the mechanics of the game encourage. I'd love to hear what the reason for you enjoying fuelweaver is because I can't figure it out.

I mean I could say the same for you, you not liking FW is an opinion you developed as well.

AFW has amazing lore to it, gives one of the best loots in the game, and resets the ruins on top of that.. Learning the fight is a fun and rewarding process that even I was able to learn when I was still a Wigfrid noob and was rewarding to do and still is to this day (could survive easily, raid bosses were new to me).

PCK on the other hand, while having some lore to it and being a boss that is similar in terms of the inventory management to FW, the reward is just a one time setup for Celestial Champion & infinite light via the Astral Detector. Everything obtained before PCK should not be attributed to PCK because you can do all that and still ignore PCK. That, and it's not the player's stats being managed but rather it's boat protection duty.

[Well-met]

10 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

  If you throw a Weather Pain at FW every time you break a shadow hand, it's very unlikely that FW will be able to eat a minion.

Even if FW does eat a minion, if you hold F and tank, that extra hp he regained wittles away very fast.

I mean I could say the same for you, you not liking FW is an opinion you developed as well.

AFW has amazing lore to it, gives one of the best loots in the game, and resets the ruins on top of that.. Learning the fight is a fun and rewarding process that even I was able to learn when I was still a Wigfrid noob and was rewarding to do and still is to this day (could survive easily, raid bosses were new to me).

PCK on the other hand, while having some lore to it and being a boss that is similar in terms of the inventory management to FW, the reward is just a one time setup for Celestial Champion & infinite light via the Astral Detector. Everything obtained before PCK should not be attributed to PCK because you can do all that and still ignore PCK. That, and it's not the player's stats being managed but rather it's boat protection duty.

who or what is PCK?

[lakhnish]

Just now, Well-met said:

who or what is PCK?

Short for Pearled Crab King.

[Well-met]

oookay lol thanks

[ArubaroBeefalo]

24 minutes ago, Ornge said:

I'd love to hear what the reason for you enjoying fuelweaver is because I can't figure it out.

unique mechanics. The only mob that has sanity mechanics like the mind control (which can be used against him) and the torches, traps you making you think when you aproach a torch or when you want to tank or telepuff away, doesnt let you time to recover unlike CC (CC waiting you without punishment is ridiculous... but nobody complains about it, what a surprise..), punishing each mistake is the best because makes you focus each time you fight him even when you have domitated the fight so you always feel excited to fight him unlike other bosses like klaus, cool design, one of the best themes in the game not only because the track is dope but also matches the rythm of the battle, his difficulty makes you feel rewarded (some people dont appreciate this feeling apparently), one of the best and cooler loots in the game plus reseting the ruins

i think i gave enough reasons to like it while you just said "i dont want to practise" and lied about "isnt designed for 1 player"

[Waynel]

6 hours ago, Ornge said:

I cannot understand how there's people out there who defend this atrocious boss fight just because they got used to his mechanics. Everything the op said is valid criticism, but because he's not impossible to kill apparently makes his flaws non-existent and he should just "Git Gud"

Let’s be honest with ourselves, whenever there’s a new boss fight that’s released you’re gonna enter the training room if you’re a player that sincerely wants to win boss fights consistently. Heck I was even practicing df (kiting) before I got used to killing it in normal runs.
The same applies for fw so it’s just a difference of degree. It really comes to “I put 1-2 more hours of practice into fw than i did for df”.

That doesn’t mean you have to be arrogant and spam “git gud” when someone asks for help because they’re struggling with a boss, but the fact some people act pretentiously shouldn’t be used as an excuse to demonize practicing boss fights/grinding.

Or else people are gonna start making the claim that the only valid way to play this game is by being doing it casually.
“Stop being so hardcore about a video game, no-lifer !”

And such behavior exists. I witnessed players on pub roasting someone because they killed df in the 1st autumn (you filthy rusher).

 

6 hours ago, Ornge said:

Did you know the lazy explorer isn't actually necessary? if you move fast enough away from the fw when he attacks you can completely dodge his attack. How are you meant to figure that out on your own you ask? you're not because its a bug that has never been fixed. before Return of them, you used to be able to dodge this attack by using the edge as well. Clearly a very well thought out attack.

That’s an interesting claim. Now obviously the pre-RoT common bone cage dodge method - which consisted in hugging the edge of the arena – was a bug because it was abuse of the void. But can it be said about the new bone cage dodge workaround ?
The bone cage attack has a fixed range and you can run out of it while remaining in the arena, so how is it a bug ? I’m genuinely curious here.

Not only that but it also requires great skill to pull this off as you have to nail the timing of the dodge near perfectly (depending on current speed boost), while managing the woven shadows at the same time.

I’m actually glad the old strat was patched out because we’d never get to see those modern and super challenging fw speedrun fights with the new bone cage dodge trick.

(yes it’s much harder than to run around the area while hugging the edge although the latter still takes skill and practice and was undoubtedly an immense feat at the time it was showcased for the first time)

 

6 hours ago, Ornge said:

He was created around multiplayer, not singleplayer.

You would be surprised. Multiplayer can be much worse if the other fighters don’t know fw mechanics very well, unless there’s so much overall dps that mistakes don’t matter. Tanking fw with your average wilson will get you into a lot of troubles whereas tanking df with a casual won’t mess up the fight.

 

On another note, I want to recall that a few years ago, w/o WP you had to ctrl+f the shadows to kill them; now you can just hold f to kill them and from time to time you want to click with your mouse when you believe your character will target fw.

Anyway you can just use the weather pain if you don’t feel comfortable with killing the shadows individually. I personally like doing the fight with and without it depending on: how I killed it last time, convenience, and a desire for change.

The afw is the only boss in the game that requires precise inventory management and it is one of the main reasons the fight is considered challenging.
In my humble opinion, I don’t want it to be made less challenging, less unique.

  

6 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

idk why people does that, isnt necessary to fill your inventory. Just keep everything organized and dont switch items from the left side of the inventory to right side ones. Everything should be at left so there isnt empty slots between items but the ones in the right doesnt matter at all if they are empty aslong as you dont move items there

Yes, it seems unnecessary if you're used to it but I guess there are people who know for sure they will get overwhelmed if you also add the necessity of putting newly equipped armor in the right slot; in the fw fight, it can literally change the outcome of the fight.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

16 minutes ago, Waynel said:

You would be surprised. Multiplayer can be much worse if the other fighters don’t know fw mechanics very well, unless there’s so much overall dps that mistakes don’t matter. Tanking fw with your average wilson will get you into a lot of troubles whereas tanking df with a casual won’t mess up the fight.

not only that but various veterans fighting fw without being synchronized can lead to a longer and more expensive fight if they dont control the shield and minions timers, thing that is easier solo

this kind of things only shows how people love to talk without having idea of what they are talking but just to try to convince everyone else that they are right 

[Guille6785]

1 hour ago, Waynel said:

That doesn’t mean you have to be arrogant and spam “git gud” when someone asks for help because they’re struggling with a boss, but the fact some people act pretentiously shouldn’t be used as an excuse to demonize practicing boss fights/grinding.

Or else people are gonna start making the claim that the only valid way to play this game is by being doing it casually.
“Stop being so hardcore about a video game, no-lifer !”

And such behavior exists. I witnessed players on pub roasting someone because they killed df in the 1st autumn (you filthy rusher).

nononono you don't get it, all playstyles are valid and welcome unless you're better than me at the game in which case you're a meta tryhard and a sweat and you're ruining the game

[Mysterious box]

8 hours ago, Ornge said:

I cannot understand how there's people out there who defend this atrocious boss fight just because they got used to his mechanics. Everything the op said is valid criticism, but because he's not impossible to kill apparently makes his flaws non-existent and he should just "Git Gud"

Personally I see this as completely valid you don't have to kill him and he's not unbeatable then add to the fact you have options to make the fight easier and I can't really feel sympathetic in this scenario. If a person feels the fight is too hard use something that will make the easier if they refuse to do that then practice the fight it being hard is not a valid reason to nerf the fight in my opinion. 

[Cloakingsumo198]

I miss when you could prevent the bonecage by getting near the ledge

[Theukon-dos]

I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but yeah, Ancient Fuelweaver is definitely fine as-is. Even if the fight seems overwhelming, you're not punished much for small mistakes. Yeah, you'll suffer if you don't bring enough sanity food. But if you get mind controlled once then you're generally not going to miss out.

The only real exception is the woven shadow phase, due to just how much HP Fuelweaver can heal with each batch. But I can't really hold it against them when they also have the second lowest HP of any raid boss, only beating Klaus with 16k total HP. Really I think the only thing I'd like to see "changed" with the Fuelweaver fight are more ways to deal with the woven shadows so the entire thing isn't dependent on a single, season-locked item.

[xhyom]

I must say that if you can't or don't like the challenge simply cheese the boss, this boss has been around for years and has never had any problems, we have many new options nowadays that he is already weaker than before. This game doesn't oblige you to do anything, if you want to be a completionist and fight a boss of that level and you don't want difficulty then maybe you want to do something else? There are people who like challenges and very difficult bosses, I don't, that's why I do other things, there's enough content in this game for you to spend years playing, there's no point in nerfing a non-problematic boss like Fuelweaver. (Not against target QoL tho...)

[Lord Cafe]

On 8/6/2022 at 10:56 PM, NekoSoulx said:

Git gud?, XD now talking seriously this boss fight is supposed to be hard, remember that he is one of the final bosses and DS series are known for their dificulty. This game is not supposed to be like terraria, the bosses are a funny thing but you can avoid them as much as you can. There are a ton of stuff to make this boss figh much more easy but you must be patient, im talking about gunpowder, darts, and a lot of others stuff that can make the fight a lot easier, of course you have to be skillful and have experience agaisnt this boss.

Dont try to run without knowing how to walk. cx What i mean is that this fight is perfect as it is, you need experience, skill, knowledge, and of course a lot of strong late game items.

Fuel Weaver fight is not hard it's unfair, if you know game design u can clearly see that the boss doesn't it give u a chance to fight back, while fighting against him, sometimes he literraly was spawning the shield right after getting broke without any timeframe for me to actualy do something and i was taking what? 5s-8s  to break all dark pillars to turn off his shield, should i got with 20 weather pain to counter this? is this skill or bad boss design?

Sometimes he starts summoning minions each time i got 500hp from him and most of the time shadow creatures literraly spawn beneath him so he can easily get guaranted heals no matter what.

He should be hard but without being able to just spam skills at any time, imagine if dragonfly could just spam stomp attack instead of doing a single punch? or bearger forcing u to sleep at any moment causing stun lock? or even moose goose screaming all the time(in this one u could just remove weapon from hand to avoid it)

He should have at least some timeframe between shield and heal and not be like "Oh i think i'll get my shield back even after getting broke like 2s ago" or like "Time to heal even if the player got only 20hp from me"

I know there's a lot of videos on youtube from people who beat him but thoose runs are  THE ONES with good results, i already killed him but was like, 20 fights  of him spamming nonstop heal and one fight that he was being a gentleman and not smappaming heal all the time which was the real good fight.

 

[NekoSoulx]

8 hours ago, Lord Cafe said:

Fuel Weaver fight is not hard it's unfair, if you know game design u can clearly see that the boss doesn't it give u a chance to fight back, while fighting against him, sometimes he literraly was spawning the shield right after getting broke without any timeframe for me to actualy do something and i was taking what? 5s-8s  to break all dark pillars to turn off his shield, should i got with 20 weather pain to counter this? is this skill or bad boss design?

Sometimes he starts summoning minions each time i got 500hp from him and most of the time shadow creatures literraly spawn beneath him so he can easily get guaranted heals no matter what.

He should be hard but without being able to just spam skills at any time, imagine if dragonfly could just spam stomp attack instead of doing a single punch? or bearger forcing u to sleep at any moment causing stun lock? or even moose goose screaming all the time(in this one u could just remove weapon from hand to avoid it)

He should have at least some timeframe between shield and heal and not be like "Oh i think i'll get my shield back even after getting broke like 2s ago" or like "Time to heal even if the player got only 20hp from me"

I know there's a lot of videos on youtube from people who beat him but thoose runs are  THE ONES with good results, i already killed him but was like, 20 fights  of him spamming nonstop heal and one fight that he was being a gentleman and not smappaming heal all the time which was the real good fight.

 

Im not sure what are ya talking about. I have never felt it like an unfair fight. And Im pretty sure the boss has a cooldown between each ability but i couldnt find anything in the wiki so if someone have the exact numbers please let me know. 

I usually use 2 weather pains and 2 lazy explorers in my wes runs. And the boss never "spam" shield or minions. I only use the weather pain if the wovens are near the boss and i always try to let some wovens alive, i just took the boss far away from wovens and tank (aka hold f). Im not sure about this but i think he cant spawn wovens if there are still some wovens from before alive. I always do this and it works every single time.

And i have a final tip, the wovens usually dont spawn in the edges of the map(idk if this is a bug or is intendeed)

Maybe you should see a guide my friend. c:

[Third Porkus]

8 hours ago, Lord Cafe said:

Fuel Weaver fight is not hard it's unfair, if you know game design u can clearly see that the boss doesn't it give u a chance to fight back, while fighting against him, sometimes he literraly was spawning the shield right after getting broke without any timeframe for me to actualy do something and i was taking what? 5s-8s  to break all dark pillars to turn off his shield, should i got with 20 weather pain to counter this? is this skill or bad boss design?

Practice

 

8 hours ago, Lord Cafe said:

I know there's a lot of videos on youtube from people who beat him but thoose runs are  THE ONES with good results, i already killed him but was like, 20 fights  of him spamming nonstop heal and one fight that he was being a gentleman and not smappaming heal all the time which was the real good fight.

Skill Issue

[GelatinousCube]

On 8/7/2022 at 12:27 PM, HowlVoid said:

Unless you're on console...

Yep..

He is brutal on console.

I've killed him once EVER solo without cheese and it was absolutely munted and I burned through a frankly stupid amount of resources, armor etc.

I now use two stacks of gunpowder and finish him off manually via glass swords with chili volt jelly. If I'm feeling really brave I might do one stack of gunpowder only but that's very rare and only if I want to be a masochist. 

I think he only needs really minimal tuning.

I wouldn't even mind if he had slightly more max health but shadows only healed like 250 or 300 instead of the whopping 400. It's rough how fast the fight can essentially be reset (FW healing to full health) due not even necessarily to mistakes but simply not having lightning reflexes for a few seconds during the fight. 

I also really hate when multiple nightmare creatures spawn while fighting him.. I don't use nightmare amulet and just stay insane instead so that a) I can always immediately kill shadow hands b) I can hold far more helpful items for the fight in my krampus sack and c) eliminate one item I have to constantly equip and take off making inventory management easier. I just have to toggle through weather pain, lazy explorer and glass swords and worry about getting the gunpowder shots off correctly (so torch too to light the powder I guess).

It'd be nice if nightmare creatures didn't spawn during the fight but I guess that would take perhaps too much pressure/difficulty off for those who use similar strats to me and don't use the nightmare amulet. 

[GelatinousCube]

On 8/7/2022 at 3:31 PM, Baark0 said:

make players not auto target the fuelweaver with their attack key when his shadow shield is up

Holy **** this needs to be implemented so badly especially on console.

It is an utter nightmare trying to target the shadow hands when FW is nearby. Same goes for the Woven Shadows and Nightmare Creatures, your character just auto targets FW if hes nearby regardless of what else is even closer or would actually make sense for you to be attacking rather than him with his shield up.

I think this is one of the worst parts of doing the fight on console. You are just constantly targeting the wrong thing and having to manoeuvre around in an attempt to target the correct entity. Spamming Weather Pains at the hands and woven shadows somewhat gets around this but even the aiming on the weather pain is wonky but it at least does AOE damage so even if you do hit FW if he is close enough to a Shadow Hand it'll get hit too and a bunch of Woven shadows should be killed as well. 

[Baark0]

10 hours ago, GelatinousCube said:

Holy **** this needs to be implemented so badly especially on console.

It is an utter nightmare trying to target the shadow hands when FW is nearby. Same goes for the Woven Shadows and Nightmare Creatures, your character just auto targets FW if hes nearby regardless of what else is even closer or would actually make sense for you to be attacking rather than him with his shield up.

I think this is one of the worst parts of doing the fight on console. You are just constantly targeting the wrong thing and having to manoeuvre around in an attempt to target the correct entity. Spamming Weather Pains at the hands and woven shadows somewhat gets around this but even the aiming on the weather pain is wonky but it at least does AOE damage so even if you do hit FW if he is close enough to a Shadow Hand it'll get hit too and a bunch of Woven shadows should be killed as well. 

oh my god i never even thought of people trying this fight without weather pains using a controller, my deepest sympathies to you poor bastards

[Moonatik]

On 8/7/2022 at 2:31 PM, lakhnish said:

To be fair, the second you have to swap between more than 2-3 items on consoles, you're kind of screwed, no?

It's not completely true.

You're just have to set up like a pro, with a full inventory, and learning it perfectly. And things stay at their places. As I'm trying to play chess seriously, I would like to compare the two things here. We know what will happen and what to do.

The inventory management is not the biggest issue on consoles. I had 2 major problems as I was fighting:

- Aiming issues (weather pain, lazy explorer). +2000HP

-Bone cage issue. When trapped and want to shoot my weather pain, it makes my character running as he's in the cage. +2400HP

Repeat a few times and it become +24000 HP. I leave after 25 min because no more ressources.