Combat too simple?

[Lumine04]

Combat has been the simple "hold () to attack" and kiting was made to ensure a safe fight against mobs. But its lacking and theres many ideas in my brain that the system could use (Im only gonna name one) balance not in mind so Im open to hearing suggestions.

The most classic idea that comes with to mind is blocking. Keeping the efficiency of kiting in mind, I do believe kiting should only have to be used against strong foes like bosses when getting hit massively crippling, however kiting smaller mobs just eats at time. Blocking can be used to fight the smaller creatures; like bats, hounds, spider warriors, etc. Blocking comes at the cost weapon durability for the reward of having a safety net from lag (hate getting hit from 10 yards) and not losing any possible hits from going back and forth to and from your target. Remember, blocking only works either against a certain damage threshold or only against mobs (not bosses). Different weapons could have different blocking affects too such as the darksword applying thorns damage or the bat bat giving some health after a successful block.

Next is, more emphasis on ranged attack. This is tricky because it should not be completely viable for a whole group to attack from afar as someone needs to tank or melee to keep agro. Blowdarts could make 8 darts per craft, do more damage, and...well honestly not much can be done for the blowdart. However magic and ranged could use more. ...but does anybody have some suggestions or ideas?

[Well-met]

No it is not outdated.

simplicity drags in a bigger audience than you might think. klei would not be smart to risk a large playerbase for a few disgruntled veterans.

proof: that's the whole idea behind the new crafting menu

[Lumine04]

Just now, Well-met said:

No it is not outdated.

Outdated is a wrong choice of words, I meant to say too simple. Your point holds wieght too, though you wouldnt want any combat gimmicks? I would appreciate something, maybe a higher draw to ranged weapons (not a bow and arrow)

[Waoling]

I think blocking should be for eye weapon, it would block when you time it with the attack.

[Mysterious box]

6 minutes ago, Well-met said:

No it is not outdated.

simplicity drags in a bigger audience than you might think. klei would not be smart to risk a large playerbase for a few disgruntled veterans.

proof: that's the whole idea behind the new crafting menu

To be fair the combat system's extreme simplicity is also the reason we can't have more unique methods of combat which also could draw a even bigger audience I'm not saying to make it complicated tho but i mean look at how nerfed Walter's slingshot has to be to justify the current state of the combat.

[Hornete]

I think the simplicity of the game's combat is it's biggest strength. Klei has been doing some experimenting especially with some of the new ways the RoT mobs attack(Rockjaw, Cookie Cutters, Greater Gestalts, Anenmies, etc). They're not complex but still new and simple. I'd like to see them continue that approach, not make the game's combat super complex, especially when a lot of the survivors aren't really warriors or anything, they're just random people imbued with the magic and wackiness of the Constant trying to make their way in this world.

Hot damn though would I kill for some of Shipwrecked's weapon design. That DLC absolutely nailed the design of weapons and it really makes me wish RoT took some more inspiration from there.

[Mike23Ua]

Personally I’d like to see stuff like being able to block some enemy damage maybe with a block or parry attack, I’d also like to see jumping added to the game so enemy mobs can get some new attacks that require the player to jump to avoid being hit by them..

If anyone has played “It takes two” you’ll understand what I mean.

I ALSO feel like there’s a lot of weapons in DST that over/under perform: A great example of this is the Kelp Bulk, this would’ve been a pretty fun Whip like weapon.. if it weren’t so completely useless.

One of my favorite weapons in Hamlet is the Corking Bat.. it’s easy to craft and unlike Hambat doesn’t spoil.

Spoilage is something players who aren’t good enough at the game to get bundle wraps has to deal with, and you’d be surprised to know just how many players avoid making Hambats due to their spoilage rate.. it’s almost like having a weapon that becomes less effective over time scares players away from using it.

I personally just stick to spears, one of the biggest reasons is I own a crap load of skins for spears… (I’d love to be able to upgrade them to be more effective but still maintain the skin I applied to them) same for the Golden tool variants..

Why do gold tools need their own skins? I already have some cool ones for the non-gold variants..

This is one of my many “complaints” about the game.. but to end this post:

If Fishing Mechanics, Boating Mechanics, Farming Mechanics, & Crafting Mechanics can be over hauled to be more complex/in-depth/fun

Its pretty safe to say that Cooking & Combat aren’t too far behind on that list to be updated.

[kirihime]

The combat is fine. Is your complaint that it's too easy? Players still die extremely regularly, so that's hard to believe. No one mechanic in this game is complex on its own, the difficulty always comes from the game forcing you to juggle several at once, combat is the same here. Kiting eating at time is absolutely a meaningful mechanic in a game where you're constantly under time pressure from multiple things, and as for blocking, armour exists? What exactly are you asking for here?

Simple doesn't equal bad and DS combat works very well for the type of game it tries to be
At the very least, turning it into some kind of MMO style combat with abilities and cooldowns, or even Dark Souls style "press roll at the right time then attack the enemy once after their combo ends" would NOT be an improvement.

DST isn't even a combat game, it's primarily about survival. Boss rush compilations might do well on youtube, and comparisons of which characters perform which theoretical roles in a theoretical team most optimally in a game where a single Wes player can beat everything by themselves will endlessly stimulate arguments on the forums and discord, but both of these are giving you a skewed perspective on the game.

For comparison, Runescape had one of the simplest combat systems imaginable, which it certainly didn't hold it back in terms of popularity, and the attempts by the devs to make the combat more involved and complex were so poorly recieved that it permanently split the community and lead to OSRS, which became more popular than the base game. Lesson here is, simple stuff works.

 

[Guille6785]

less is more sometimes, I like the simplicity

also more mechanics =/= more depth

[GenomeSquirrel]

It’s a cheap game, I don’t think it’s fair the expect monster hunter type weapon and enemy variety and combat mechanics. 

I fear that they would kill players with how hit detection works with latency.

[Faintly Macabre]

The simplicity of the combat would be fine for me if it weren't for all the content now that wants me to do it for 10 minutes at a time without cheesy setups or excessive passive mechanic stacking.

[kirihime]

1 minute ago, Faintly Macabre said:

The simplicity of the combat would be fine for me if it weren't for all the content now that wants me to do it for 10 minutes at a time without cheesy setups or excessive passive mechanic stacking.

define cheesy setup

[Faintly Macabre]

1 minute ago, kirihime said:

define cheesy setup

Shoving Toadstool out of his arena and beating him to death while he leashes defenselessly, or using obstacles with combat components to keep AFW stuck trying to end the fight while you range him to death.

[Lumine04]

Y'all should read my post instead of just the title. Im asking if blocking would be a nifty feature and what ideas you have...

[kirihime]

1 hour ago, Lumine04 said:

Combat has been the simple "hold () to attack" and kiting was made to ensure a safe fight against mobs. But its lacking

lacking how?
also i could be wrong on this but I don't think kiting was originally an intended mechanic, it's just something that players did and it was decided to accept it as part of the combat and build around it. but this is super early in the game's life and before I got into it, so I can't verify whether this is true.

it's certainly not safe in any case, see: spider warrior, or even just things like hounds that come in groups
the combat isn't "never get hit", HP and armour are resources, you're allowed to spend them and in plenty of cases it might even be "profitable" to do so

Quote

kiting smaller mobs just eats at time. Blocking can be used to fight the smaller creatures; like bats, hounds, spider warriors, etc. Blocking comes at the cost [...] durability for the reward of having a safety net from lag (hate getting hit from 10 yards) and not losing any possible hits from going back and forth to and from your target.

this is how armour works already

but in any case

18 minutes ago, Lumine04 said:

[...] and what ideas you have...

Complexity doesn't have to come from the combat itself, remember, this is a game about dealing with multiple systems at once
something like muddy ground that the player can get stuck in would significantly change how fighting works any time it's involved
the boats already mix up combat a lot by being fairly small and heavily restricting movement, more boat content would definitely be appreciated

[Lumine04]

6 minutes ago, kirihime said:

lacking how?
also i could be wrong on this but I don't think kiting was originally an intended mechanic, it's just something that players did and it was decided to accept it as part of the combat and build around it. but this is super early in the game's life and before I got into it, so I can't verify whether this is true.

Lacking in the aspect of not having a variety in both available weapons and mechanics. Blocking sounds like it could add a lot to combat if done right, theres already unused free roam buttons during combat that could have a function. Also I know kiting was possibly unintentional and its a good thing they havnt done too much against it.

16 minutes ago, kirihime said:

it's certainly not safe in any case, see: spider warrior, or even just things like hounds that come in groups

Wait huh? Its pretty simple to fight hounds in groups with kiting, by circling to make a big ball of hound and triggering their attack at once you can often get one hit in. But this is time consuming, thats why I suggest blocking. Also for spider warriors hit them six times and wait for the bite animation, if you do it right and stay close enough they'll bute like a normal spider instead of jump.

19 minutes ago, kirihime said:

this is how armour works already

Well to be fair I often dont carry armor on me and I do like my pretty bonnet miner hat. Also blocking shouldnt just be blocking, different weapons could have affects. Maybe getting to a point where players could have "loudouts(?)". Wearing marble armor for defense and blocking with a dark sword to get that extra thorns damage.

24 minutes ago, kirihime said:

Complexity doesn't have to come from the combat itself, remember, this is a game about dealing with multiple systems at once

something like muddy ground that the player can get stuck in would significantly change how fighting works any time it's involved
the boats already mix up combat a lot by being fairly small and heavily restricting movement, more boat content would definitely be appreciated

It should, alongside cooking, both of these seem a little behind and lack complexity and extra mechanics. Theres nothing to figure out or learn and get better its just, "Notice x does more damage than y and hold attack". I love your muddy ground idea, I say this a lot but I like the idea of a jungle with hostile vegetation that would grab you. Going back to the former, I know what I responded isnt exactly what you meant but I believe these two things need more to it.

[. . .]

I hate the DST combat it's extremely boring. Almost every other survival game's combat mechanics far exceed DST because they allow the player more options, actions, controls for their character while doing combat.

In DST it's just hold a button (or even more tedious click on the enemy) and move, repeat the cycle X amount of times. That's not really engaging or fun.

Things personally I see would improve the combat by a lot 

• Attacks having a hitbox instead of being auto-target (like deerclops is attack having a real hitbox now)
• Players can preform an attack while moving which will make them do a of dash/running attack (which stops movement at the end of the state) then when a mob's faster than you or equal speed you actually have a small chance of hitting it instead of having to play tag to the edge of the map or in PvP case literally just playing tag to the ends of the map
• Players are able to preform attack actions while on the spot like in the console versions of DS
• Colored team groups players can join to prevent their attacks from hitting other players on their team (if PvP's disabled you can't regardless and if it is if your on the same team you won't hurt each other. Like Terraria) - The forge even had some flag colors which match nicely with the idea 
  Spoiler

  

   

• Mobs get buffed by a small amount to make up for players fighting capability being improved greatly
• Shields that allow for blocking and a sort of clothing which allows for dodging (could even be magical using nightmare fuel)
• Ranged weapons actually requiring aiming like the forge's special attacks instead of using Minecraft aimbot hacks (mobs with ranged attacks shouldn't have aimbot either)
• Sprinting. May seem unrelated to combat, but sprinting plays a heavy role in making combat more enjoyable. Imagine fighting mid/end-game bosses in Terraria without hermes boots or minecraft boss fights while just walking (which has been done in challenge videos, but that doesn't mean it's fun it's for entertainment). A stamina mechanic would not be needed. Only a simple hunger multiplier maybe of 1.5 or 2 while sprinting and it can give like a 25% speed boost (same amount as a walking cane).
•  An easier to access ranged weapon. aka, bow and arrow. blow darts, boomerang are horrible options for ranged weapons. Walter's slingshot is the only decent ranged weapon which a bow and arrow can be the same but for all characters instead of character specific. Having to manually aim weapons prevents them from being overpowered which's the main reason there are no convenient to acquire ranged weapons.

 

I have a lot more, but pointless to go to in detail because personally I don't see Klei ever greatly improving the combat in DST to be more player engaging and skillful (especially since only a few updates ago they tried adding being able to force attack while just holding a mouse button too) and also this forum is an echo chamber if you go against the popular opinion which in this case is "hold F good" then you get dogpiled on.

Biggest reason I also don't see combat ever changing is a lot of people who play DST have potato computers or high ping so without aimbot combat it would be very hard for them to even be able to fight especially with things such as Lag Compensation enabled lmao

At most I can only see Klei adding forge special attacks to special new weapons (which's just scratching the surface of making combat more engaging for the player) but that's all.

My only hope for improved DST combat is mods.

[NoodlemanNed]

i think blocking by itself would be a nice addition to the game. I do agree with most people here that combat doesnt need to be super complex, but adding something all litte as this wouldnt disturb that too much.

I would also be interested in how this could potentially make the weapons at least a bit more balanced. The weapon selection in this game isnt huge to begin with but it would be nice to have more of a reason to use spear/ cat whips as those 2 weapons are a bit lacking currently (you could argue spear is fine on pubs without pigskin but another little buff wouldnt hurt much would it)

ALSO many people like to hate on tanking since its resource cost is rarely every practical, and blocks would help remedy that issue.

[Spep]

I think its more the fault of most enemies than it is the player, most enemies just walk up to you and attack, and the ones that are more complicated immediately make combat more interesting.

Really good sign for the future in that way, we have been getting far better enemies recently and the celestial champion manages to actually be a well designed complex boss fight that does not require me to kill moose goose 5 times over, reworked AG is also great, a couple simple changes made it SO much more fun to fight even if you fought em legitimately pre rework.


Albeit, player equipment could use a few changes, at the very least new tools in the players hand would allow the developers to make bosses with said tools in mind, please no more weather pain grinding i beg.


In summary, the games combat system is not bad, its just HEAVILY underutilized most of the time or used in a way that is just bad COUGH COUGH CRAB KING and will probably get much better with newer updates.

[maradyne]

3 hours ago, Lumine04 said:

blocking

That alone would add some nice variety combat.
Could even have stats tied to weapons for blocking more damage/losing less durability; eye shield is an obvious choice, but the Thulecite Club also has the mass for it, kind of like how the big sword was usable as a shield in the Forge.

 

The problem with any sort of buff/additions to ranged combat is that most mobs aren't able to do much about it...
But it's long been my opinion that that should be changed, so I'd love to see it. There are a lot of fun options when you distance and mobility to the mix.

[Guille6785]

1 hour ago, . . . said:

I have a lot more, but pointless to go to in detail because personally I don't see Klei ever greatly improving the combat in DST to be more player engaging and skillful

none of the things you mentioned would make combat any more fun or "skillful", in regards to the latter you're only suggesting the entry barrier to be raised so people who don't care about combat much get screwed over while even experienced players now have to deal with unnecessary mini games every time they want some silk and pig skin, nobody wins in this scenario

even dst's simple combat system has a very high skill ceiling if you know where to look
https://youtu.be/VRhfiZm2nYA
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1ka411m7oE

[Riddla]

Instead of changing core mechanics of combat, I would personally love additions instead. Tons of possibilities to make combat a fun time.
As many folks suggested, you could block attacks with large weapons. Perhaps make the character be able to throw their spear for damage. Maybe give your night sword the ability to sort of charge up and do an AoE slash. Hell, why not make Hammer fit for combat too by giving it an optional attack which stuns?
I'd say different weapons should bring in different and fun combat mechanics for yourself to strategize in fights with. Of course, all of that should be optional, understandably not everyone wants to deal with this and simply just want to smack - that's fine!

[Cheggf]

Blocking would make combat even more simple since it's taking out literally the only part of it which requires thought.

[CremeLover]

The only way to expand the combat would be to increase the amount of actions the survivors can perform as well as the actions the enemies can perform.

As it is right now if you were to add blocking it would be very very easy to just cheese most of the difficult mechanics, like ranged attacks, or multi attacks be dealt with just by blocking, instead of prediction and clever positioning or just outright dodging.

If you want to see a way to implement this successfully check The Forge, where a block action was introduced with the thulecite club.

[Mr Giggio]

4 hours ago, Lumine04 said:

Combat has been the simple "hold () to attack" and kiting was made to ensure a safe fight against mobs.

yall putting things like that while taking no risk by kittin one enemy  and sayin its bland without considering  ruins or boss battles when u always have to deal with multiple enemies and how perfect the system is cuz of that makes me be sorry for u guys. Seriously some things are better simple. 

yall can say "oh its boring" so try not to look just at fights against one pig. Instead, two terrorbeaks or two krampii [and in this case the flute is there huh, to make it easier] and you will see.