Is it lisenced for modders to make money from in-game sales in the DST within their mod?

[CarlZalph]

Klei has been made aware of this quite a few times with internal discussion on how to move forward with it.  It steps into the legal boundaries both in what's permitted as per the content creation guidelines and actual legal issues; there's also actual boundaries of land involved.

To resolve such a thing takes care, because there's the side of modders doing work for effectively nothing and compensation for quality work is on the other side of the scale.

What Klei decides to do, if any action, would most likely end up being between Klei and the modder to resolve in private.  It's a lot of work to undertake if Klei decides to permit such things to exist with quite a few legality issues and contracting/licensing requirements.  Shaking a stick at anyone making content dissuades them from making more content.  The community could get out of hand with the buying practices, too, adding to the amount of support and moderation required by Klei to be the authority.

 

It's a bundle.

[Frosty_Mentos]

Thanks for repeating my words, guys xd w/e we should just move on.

[Yuuko]

idk a few things

1) This is too difficult to enforce.  Getting a mod removed from steam only removes it from a single distribution channel.  A mod can easily be hosted another way, and applied very easily.  If people want to play a certain way, you're not going to stop them.  This is difficult even in USA, so I can imagine trying to enforce such a thing internationally is just ridiculously difficult.  They would lose more money chasing these creators than they "lose" due to illegal sales.

2) It isn't Klei skins being sold.  As I understand these are all custom skins that were created for the mod.  So what is really being stolen from Klei?  As long as these people are buying the base game officially, and possibly buy official skins from the store, there isn't much lost when they buy custom skins that cater to whole theme Klei wouldn't provide.  They do have to play on servers that also include this mod, so I imagine the mod creators are hosting some nice public servers too.  Its a whole thing that might not exist if they weren't creating this mod, so ethically I don't see a problem with them monetizing the experience they made - provided people are buying official DST copies.

3) To me it feels like semantics and lip service.  We've seen private servers with "donation links" and "donation rewards" for decades now.  This is all a facade because they can't "sell" their modded product, but they are creating value that the original creators are not.  The work and effort they put in, and the enjoyment their playerbase has of their custom experience warrants an exchange of value.  Whether its called "donation" or called "payment" might as well be a translation error because it really doesn't matter.

I play several off-steam-workshop mods and honestly wouldn't play some base games without them.  Its not that way for me with DST, but it is with other things.  Same with DRM free games - there are some games I only buy because they are drm free.  The entire argument that companies lose money from things like this is based on the idea that the money these mod creators gather would go to Klei if the mod wasn't there, but the reality is a large amount of that money wouldn't go to Klei either because they aren't capturing that audience.

[Owlrust]

Personally I don't see too much of an issue with monetization of higher-end quality mods so long as Klei gets some of the proceeds. In a sense, they made a lemonade stand by hand (Myth Worlds) but are selling it at someone else's house. So that home owner deserves something for their trouble outside of "Exposure" that, If we're gonna be honest, doesn't benefit much.

[Frosty_Mentos]

34 minutes ago, Owlrus said:

Personally I don't see too much of an issue with monetization of higher-end quality mods so long as Klei gets some of the proceeds. In a sense, they made a lemonade stand by hand (Myth Worlds) but are selling it at someone else's house. So that home owner deserves something for their trouble outside of "Exposure" that, If we're gonna be honest, doesn't benefit much.

100% agreed.

[me real life]

48 minutes ago, Owlrus said:

In a sense, they made a lemonade stand by hand (Myth Worlds) but are selling it at someone else's house. So that home owner deserves something for their trouble outside of "Exposure" that, If we're gonna be honest, doesn't benefit much.

This analogy doesn't quite work, unless the boards for the lemonade stand were bought from that home owner and also everyone who wants to get lemonade has to pay a fee to the home owner to get a pass to even be able to get to the lemonade stand in the first place.

[JoeW]

Gonna have to give a vague response here but... 

Generally - we don't try to just take people down, unless they get carried away. We have asked this mod team to calm down a few times in the past, we have had conversations with them. And they had previously agreed not to take things too far (which apparently didn't last). 

I want this to be really clear here. We haven't given or offered them anything different than anybody else. The audience for this set of mods is substantial, but nothing world shattering where we're "scared" - but generally speaking, yes we prefer not to upset people if we don't have to. 

That problem here is a bit complicated. Basically there is a team that would like to make money to keep making mods in the game. As a developer, I understand this. They like doing it and they want to keep doing it. If we pull the rug out from underneath them, that sucks for them and the people that like their work.

On the other hand, we also have a legal obligation to protect our copyright (which is why we don't talk about it). So. We have previously asked them to pull back and we will ask again. 

We'll figure out a solution here that hopefully isn't just "take it down, and you're out of luck" - and hopefully that settles it. And hopefully the solution would open doors for some other groups to do these kinds of things too. 

[Owlrust]

34 minutes ago, Sunset Skye said:

This analogy doesn't quite work, unless the boards for the lemonade stand were bought from that home owner and also everyone who wants to get lemonade has to pay a fee to the home owner to get a pass to even be able to get to the lemonade stand in the first place.

That's fair. Would, paying to get into a grocery store then selling candybars in the store you bought them from work a bit better? If Klei's fine with it I don't personally see much an issue with it, but I can understand why it would be an upsetting scenario for many.

[Mantispidae]

Joe covered the details that needed to be, but yeah, the removal of monetization from mods is mainly for 2 things:

1) The fact that mods rest on the operation of another game. It's a blurry line of copyright and other legality things, but since the mod is technically built on top of another thing (by nature of being a mod) monetizing it creates a 'questionable' source of profit that goes through the main game. This isn't to say mod makers aren't working hard and creating some really, really good content- but its because of this association between someone else's copyright and the 'additional' piece that make monetization fall into a legally questionable place. This is why, and yeah, its a bit of lip service- but in legal speak lip service makes all the difference, monetization like donations are very carefully implemented as a strictly for-creator-effort thing. It turns it from "im paying for this thing that's in someone else's game" to "Im paying for someone's hard work that I like" which can make all the difference. As I said before, its this reason that fangames are always free, and if they do let you donate its always very carefully a "this is just for me as a creator and has nothing to do with the game at all  :)" on a surface level they are the same, but avoiding linking income with the product you don't own makes a big difference.

2) Lack of regulation. Theoretically, it is ultimately the choice of the buyer if they want to invest in these paid-for mod perks. However another reason these aren't really good things for games without official storefront systems is because it is hard to regulate them and how they behave- which can still shine poorly on the owners of the original IP/original game- regardless of if they have anything to do with it. If Myth Worlds was to say, scam people (and I'm not saying they are or are bad, just theoretical), that still shines badly on Klei for being a vector for it and Klei has no ability to evoke repercussions. Technically not their fault, but still a bad look from the POV of many.

Honestly, all myth worlds likely really needs to do is either make their skins solely time-locked with their own little internal system, removing the monetization system. If they really want to get paid for their work they just have to make it a donation system that doesn't link directly to the mod. You get less profit that way by nature (because people want things) but people do like supporting hard work and not making a profit is just something you kinda have to accept when making fanwork that links to another product in this way. Its the same reason why merch artists are asked not to mass-produce charms and only do limited runs of them.

[M1chael 39]

Imagine you are a person who sells amazing hot dogs. By entering into a bar and trying to sell your hot dogs to go alongside the beer and whiskey served in the bar, you may enhance a lot of customers experience, you may get them to come back to buy some beer with your hot dogs. But at the end of the day, you are doing business in another persons established business, and thats not ok for most people.

[NOOOBU]

On 10/16/2021 at 9:10 PM, JoeW said:

Gonna have to give a vague response here but... 

Generally - we don't try to just take people down, unless they get carried away. We have asked this mod team to calm down a few times in the past, we have had conversations with them. And they had previously agreed not to take things too far (which apparently didn't last). 

I want this to be really clear here. We haven't given or offered them anything different than anybody else. The audience for this set of mods is substantial, but nothing world shattering where we're "scared" - but generally speaking, yes we prefer not to upset people if we don't have to. 

That problem here is a bit complicated. Basically there is a team that would like to make money to keep making mods in the game. As a developer, I understand this. They like doing it and they want to keep doing it. If we pull the rug out from underneath them, that sucks for them and the people that like their work.

On the other hand, we also have a legal obligation to protect our copyright (which is why we don't talk about it). So. We have previously asked them to pull back and we will ask again. 

We'll figure out a solution here that hopefully isn't just "take it down, and you're out of luck" - and hopefully that settles it. And hopefully the solution would open doors for some other groups to do these kinds of things too. 

Thank for your reply Mr. JoeW. So how about Reward Function? Is it also not permitted in Klei' s games now?

[JoeW]

1 minute ago, NOOOBU said:

Thank for your reply Mr. JoeW. So how about Reward Function? Is it also not permitted in Klei' s games now?

Hi - I already see that you have posted about this on Tieba. I should clarify to you - and we have already spoken with them. I am NOT looking to shut them down entirely. 

Quote

We'll figure out a solution here that hopefully isn't just "take it down, and you're out of luck" - and hopefully that settles it. And hopefully the solution would open doors for some other groups to do these kinds of things too. 

We will be looking into solving the issue in a way that helps them as well as all modders be able to collaborate with us in a way that supports their communities in a safer and more official way. 

I don't have the full plan yet - we will let people know when we have an official solution. 

[Primalflower]

i find myself wondering why it is taboo for people to monetize content in their mods if they themselves created the mod...i think its fair to ask for some amount of compensation for your work if you choose...

[minespatch]

On 10/16/2021 at 10:03 AM, Zepp said:

1. I don't think JoeW or Klei will respond positively to relevant questions.
2. By the way, I also reported about DST_ LSJ stole Klei's art and sold it on BiliBili.

 

1. To quote Joe, he had go to about it vaguely,
2. Ah, two years ago. No wonder I can remember the topic but not the title.

[NOOOBU]

38 minutes ago, JoeW said:

Hi - I already see that you have posted about this on Tieba. I should clarify to you - and we have already spoken with them. I am NOT looking to shut them down entirely. 

We will be looking into solving the issue in a way that helps them as well as all modders be able to collaborate with us in a way that supports their communities in a safer and more official way. 

I don't have the full plan yet - we will let people know when we have an official solution. 

Oops sorry to make you confused, I fully agree and understand what you mean.   You are trying to strike a balance between considering the feelings of these  subscribers and being right in reason, it is a hard work.   I also agree with the idea of not taking the mod down entirely, but it's still hard to make progress.   I posted this message to tell them Klei's attitude because there were big differences on this matter in the Chinese community before. Such endless quarrels are not good, so I think it is necessary to let them know your attitude.   I hope you will make good progress in this matter and thank for your all jobs. 

[me real life]

15 hours ago, M1chael 39 said:

Imagine you are a person who sells amazing hot dogs. By entering into a bar and trying to sell your hot dogs to go alongside the beer and whiskey served in the bar, you may enhance a lot of customers experience, you may get them to come back to buy some beer with your hot dogs. But at the end of the day, you are doing business in another persons established business, and thats not ok for most people.

This analogy also doesn't work, unless the hot dogs were made with buns bought from the bar and also the bar has a system in place that already allows for giving out food made with ingredients from the bar.

I don't think making analogies for this kind of thing really works, trying to simplify it to hot dogs or lemonade ignores a lot of the intricacies of modding a videogame.

[CarlZalph]

3 hours ago, Primalflower said:

i find myself wondering why it is taboo for people to monetize content in their mods if they themselves created the mod...i think its fair to ask for some amount of compensation for your work if you choose...

I'm all for someone donating money an author with no expectation on returns because they like what they see and hope it will bring more.  However, once things are being sold it introduces that expectation that it is permanently going to work and exist.  Which pretty much requires an authority to moderate it all to stop bad actors from really dinging over people from promises (implied or otherwise) not kept once a transaction is complete.

[Primalflower]

1 minute ago, CarlZalph said:

However, once things are being sold it introduces that expectation that it is permanently going to work and exist.  Which pretty much requires an authority to moderate it all to stop bad actors from really dinging over people from promises (implied or otherwise) not kept once a transaction is complete.

i dont really see a problem with this still.. not to the point of disallowing locking content behind monetization entirely :/

[zombieJ]

As far as I know, MyTh is an important mod for Chinese players. Their live broadcasters will install this mod to play and make more Chinese player know DST with the mod. The idea of plagiarizing creativity is actually a joke not an accusation. So do not extend misunderstanding for the language env.

 

It's better to provider an official way for modder to make money. As I know, Chinese player really love DST and its modder have strong willing to contribute to improve gaming experience.

[NOOOBU]

1 hour ago, zombieJ said:

As far as I know, MyTh is an important mod for Chinese players. Their live broadcasters will install this mod to play and make more Chinese player know DST with the mod. The idea of plagiarizing creativity is actually a joke not an accusation. So do not extend misunderstanding for the language env.

 

It's better to provider an official way for modder to make money. As I know, Chinese player really love DST and its modder have strong willing to contribute to improve gaming experience.

Eh actually myth team is having long allowed their fans to vilify Klei, they made some rumor which is bad for Klei. And more and more CN DST rookies are believing Klei is not good as them. I'm ashamed of them

 I know it's hard to believe, but it's the truth. You can see some bad speech screenshots from myth's fans on 1st Page.

So that is why more and more quarrels and arguments are taking place in CN DST forums, myth fans crazy about it, and regular players hate it.

[zombieJ]

7 hours ago, NOOOBU said:

Eh actually myth team is having long allowed their fans to vilify Klei, they made some rumor which is bad for Klei. And more and more CN DST rookies are believing Klei is not good as them. I'm ashamed of them

 I know it's hard to believe, but it's the truth. You can see some bad speech screenshots from myth's fans on 1st Page.

So that is why more and more quarrels and arguments are taking place in CN DST forums, myth fans crazy about it, and regular players hate it.

Always exist crazy fans on the world. Yeh?

The leader (not only modder) should guide fans to know the difference between funny trick and real blame. which should not let them over the line.

[MilesUpshore]

7 hours ago, NOOOBU said:

Eh actually myth team is having long allowed their fans to vilify Klei, they made some rumor which is bad for Klei. And more and more CN DST rookies are believing Klei is not good as them. I'm ashamed of them

 I know it's hard to believe, but it's the truth. You can see some bad speech screenshots from myth's fans on 1st Page.

So that is why more and more quarrels and arguments are taking place in CN DST forums, myth fans crazy about it, and regular players hate it.

IMO looking at the screenshots, either the modder team needs to tell their fans to cool it and not flame at Klei with these comments, or they might as well make a game of their own since these comments keep happening.

[Frosty_Mentos]

2 hours ago, MilesUpshore said:

IMO looking at the screenshots, either the modder team needs to tell their fans to cool it and not flame at Klei with these comments, or they might as well make a game of their own since these comments keep happening.

^This, tbh.

[minespatch]

17 hours ago, MilesUpshore said:

 make a game of their own since these comments keep happening.

Kind of shocked they haven't gone that route.

[NOOOBU]

 

On 10/16/2021 at 9:10 PM, JoeW said:

Generally - we don't try to just take people down, unless they get carried away. We have asked this mod team to calm down a few times in the past, we have had conversations with them. And they had previously agreed not to take things too far (which apparently didn't last). 

It seems like they are not going to be CALM DOWN again this time.