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Waterlogged Beta Analysis and Suggestions [An explanation on the new Mangrove Biome and suggestions for it]


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It's that time again where a new beta comes out and everyone including myself rushes to make an opinion on it! This time around the beta's content revolves around a new mangrove biome situated in the rough biome of the ocean (the third 'deepest' one, after the coast and swells), on top of that boats have been further refined to make their speed much quicker and the anchor's slowing power much greater to help explore the oceans (for the sake of this post however it won't be going indepth for the boat changes, just know that oars provide much more speed, anchors slow boats down considerably better, sails are about 20-30% faster and the power of sails are reduced less when multiple are on a boat, and boats will come to a halt on their own if left without anything providing it speed).

NOTE: The first part of this is gonna be explaining what was added, the suggestions are at the end of the post. Also sorry for the long read. There will be a TLDR at the end.

As I've said, the newest biome is located in the rough biome in the ocean. It's fairly small and there's typically around three per map. Its most notable feature being the canopy shadow that covers the entire biome, caused by the giant trees located within it. This canopy provides a small amount of protection while raining, protects from lightning, protects from wildfires, and provides the same protection from overheating that a tree can (minor insulation and the temperature underneath it is lower than the world temperature so you'll barely overheat at best, but can still overheat nonetheless). Underneath the shade of these massive trees lie its own unique ecosystem.

Firstly, each giant tree contains 4 vines which bear Figs. These Figs can be picked and provide 12.5 hunger when eaten raw, 18.8 hunger and 1 hp when cooked, and have 0.5 fruit value in the crock pot. These provide another vegetarian source of food in the ocean (poor Wurt gets some brief reprieve from eating kelp and corn to survive off the ocean) and have 4 crock pot recipes attached to them.
 

Spoiler

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These are: Fig Stuffed Trunk - 1 Koalefant Trunk and 1 fig. 60 hp, 56.2 hunger, 0 sanity. Lasts 10 days. That's right, the Koalefant Trunk can finally be used in the crock pot. Unfortunately though despite the trunk when cooked providing 40 hp and 75 hunger, it only has 1 meat value in the crock pot and its one unique dish provides less hunger and only 20 more hp as a benefit to it, despite the scarcity of both required ingredients.

Figkebab - 1 fig, 1 meat value, 1 twig. It won't accept more than 1 monster meat in its recipe or else it'll turn into wet goop. 20 hp, 25 hunger, 15 sanity. Lasts 15 days. The stats on this one is generally okay. It's nothing too impressive but it's quite easy to make in the mangrove biome. There's typically 12 figs in a biome and there is an easy source of meat and twigs that I'll bring up soon enough. This can be a good general food to have due to the spoilage time as well, making it perfect for stocking up in the mangrove biome for sailing trips. 

Figatoni - 1 fig and 2 units of veggies. 30 hp, 56.2 hunger, 15 sanity. Lasts 6 days. This one isnt as easy to make on the spot, you'd need to fish up corn cods to get the needed veggies since kelp is 0.5 veggies. On top of that it lasts 6 days, similar to some of the good Leafy Meat recipes so it'll go stale fairly quick, making it not as ideal on long trips, but it's a good food nonetheless to make if you need stats across the board.

Figgy Frogwich - 1 fig and 1 frog legs. 8 hp, 18.7 hunger, 10 sanity. Lasts 15 days. This one is a bit of an oddball. The obvious thing about it is that it has rather low stats. Something else to note is its priority in the crock pot is incredibly low, meaning if the filler ingredients can make anything else, odds are it will. It seems like it's intended to be a food to stockpile on, especially given how common frog legs can be due to frog rain in Spring. That being said, it does suffer from Figs being required and similar to the Fig Stuffed Trunk, the ingredients aren't available in one spot and may thus feel too tedious for what they're intended for.


Now, as for what's an easy source of meat and twigs in the mangrove biome that helps Figkebab's case as a good food:

 

Spoiler

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Say hello to the Grass Gator! This adorable (it's cute, fight me) creature spawns by falling from the branches of the giant trees and wanders the water, running if the players get too close but attacking if it' hit, similar to a Koalefant. Due to the fact that you're chasing it on the ocean and it'll dive if it gets too far from the trees, it's best to bring a ranged weapon to draw aggro if you intend to fight them. If you're able to slay the beats, they drop a whopping leafy meat, two grass and two twigs. Not only that but they respawn within 2 minutes as well, making them excellent sources of leafy meat (which helps for those who want it but don't have many lureplants to farm). Every half a day they also shed twigs....which is strange for a Grass based animal but either way the effect would be negligible, but it's nice nonetheless. If you ever go to  the mangrove biome I suggest try to hunt these if you're low on food. 

Moving on to some more minor details, hiding above the water in dens lurk the Sea Striders.

 

Spoiler

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These babies come out at dusk, like any other spider, and hunt fish. On top of that if you ram into the giant tree then nearby dens will be alerted and the striders will come down into the water to lurk for a while. They have 200 health and deal 20 damage. Webber can befriend them and make a switcherdoodle for them using Figs in the biome. Their drops and the drops of the den aren't anything unique, they drop typical spider loot, so they're mostly there for atmosphere, to provide some danger within the biome and to give Webber followers that won't clog up his boat as he's sailing around the seas (since spiders are typically meant to overwhelm enemies with their numbers).

One last mob that spawns in the biome would be the Sweetish Fish, a new large ocean fish that spawns in the biome. There's nothing unique attached to it however other than it has an affinity for berries and gives you large fish meat. The characters make remarks about it indicating that it has a sweet smell and taste due to its diet of figs but it doesn't provide sweetener in the crock pot or anything like that (they also look funky).

Spoiler

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Lastly, Knobbly Trees and tree roots are scattered across the biome. The roots act primarily as obstacles and can be chopped to provide you with driftwood, whereas Knobbly Trees provide a source of logs in the ocean, but they do have a secret to them.

You might've caught earlier that I mentioned ramming into the giant tree will alert nearby spider dens. Well there's more to it than that. If the giant trees are rammed into or are struck by lightning they also drop several twigs and grass, but the main attraction is that when rammed into an ocean tree nut will drop and can be retrieved using the Pinchin Winch.

 

Spoiler

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While these provide nothing for you on land and need to be carried, you can drop them off using the pinchin winch into the ocean and after about 1 and a half days, it'll turn into a small Knobbly Tree! Now as for the secret these trees hold, you'll need to craft a new recipe in the food tab known as Tree Jam. Tree Jam is a fertiliser (provides mostly compost and can be used on wormwood for instant health, health regen and forcing bloom) and requires 2 figs and 1 glommer goop to create one. The game describes it as a growth formula for trees, which is indeed true. They will cause trees to advance by 1 stage when used on them (such as evergreens) and can be used to repair boat leaks completely (no patch for Wavey Jones to pull out). What's more, you can use these to 'enrich' Knobbly Trees once they're at their last stage of growth. They reach this stage after over 7 or so days (including when they were planted) and enrichment lasts 3 to 4.5 days. If they're enriched 4 times in total, they'll create an Above Average Tree which has its own, slightly smaller, canopy similar to giant trees in the biome. They can also provide grass and twigs similar to them and from what I've heard they can provide more nuts to get trees (note that it takes about a day and a half before you can get more) on top of the protection from the elements they've provided that I stated at the start of this post (no wildfires, no lightning, some protection from rain and overheating). You can chop these trees down, requiring a total of 25 chops, and doing so will provide an astounding!!!!.........6 logs and some grass and twigs. Yeah, it's underwhelming. It's clear based on their loot that Klei intends for the Above Average trees to be primarily used for summer bases as you can get shade from the canopy on the coast if you plant your tree next to it, but for 20 days of waiting and actively going to it 4 times to enrich it (and making sure to enrich it while it's big), it's a tad underwhelming.


And well, that would be all the new content. Overall I'm quite fond of the direction this update took and I absolutely adore the aesthetic of the new biome and the canopy the giant trees provide, as well as being a sucker for new recipes, however there is room for improvement as always and I would like to suggest some things that could improve it.

For starters, Fig recipes. 3 of them seem fine stat wise, the only one that has a blatant issue would be the Fig Stuffed Trunk. If you cook a trunk and cook a fig, you'll get 41 hp and 93.8 hunger in total. This means making the recipe would give you 19 more hp but cause you to lose 37.6 hunger from making it, which is a considerable difference. On top of that the trunk also lasts longer than the recipe itself, making it not that worth making unless you really want 19 more health for some reason and have nothing else to use for it. It would be better if the recipe's hunger was more than 100, perhaps even 112.5 like Warly's Moqueca due to the fact you need to hunt a koalefant for it and get figs which are found only in the ocean.

On the topic of the trunk, it provides hunger equivalent to 3 pieces of large meat but it's only 1 meat value in the crock pot. It could be better to make it be worth 1.5 or 2 meat in the crock pot due to what people are trading away stat wise on the trunk in exchange for a crock pot meal. 

Another issue with the recipes are that figs are only accessible in the mangrove area, which does make them less appealing especially since only 1 can really be made without too much hassle in the biome and one of the recipes seem to be made to be mass produced. It could be a good trade-off to make 2-3 figs grow from the Above Average trees but in exchange the nuts can only be found by ramming into the giant trees in the biome itself, providing incentive to go back there as well as making Figs much more accessible. 

This would also help with the next issue, namely the worth of the Above Average Tree for the effort put into growing it. It takes over 20 days for 1 to grow, requires 8 figs and 4 glommer goop and needs to be interacted with at least 4 times but it provides a small amount of loot if you decide to chop it. It's understandable if the intent isn't to chop it but when 2 evergreens can provide more logs than it within 5 days, it's a bit sad and an issue. These trees could be viable for loot if they provided maybe 15 or 20+ logs as well as substantially more twigs and grass. While this won't make them more viable than evergreens farms, or lureplant farms with twigs and grass, it can make occasionally farming them for quick loot a use of them for the community.


Lastly, tree jam is quite expensive to make, due to figs and glommer goop being rare. And while fig can be more readily available if Above Average Trees are made to grow them, glommer goop is still an issue and the fastest way to get it would be to kill Glommer every night during the Moonstorm event where every night is a full moon (and thus he respawns nightly). With that being said, it has alot of potential. If it's allowed to be used more freely some changes to it that would make it better would be for trees to grow fully when it's applied on the small version of trees, and it can be more freely used as 'boat patches' to fully repair leaks. A kind of out there suggestion that likely won't do much in the long run but would make sense would be that it could be used to befriend treeguards, since it's a tree growth formula and treeguards are well, tree guards and would probably appreciate the gift as a result of that. 

That's all the suggestions I have for now, though I'm sure there's some things I missed. The biome is certainly a unique take and is a nice way to implement more ways to combat summer and more survivability while exploring the ocean but as always, there is room to improve and the tools it provides have alot of potential that can be taken advantage of if used right. Thanks to anyone who read this far down, I hope the information provided will be of use to you and if you have any suggestions yourself feel free to comment them in the post. 


(Also sorry for anyone who thought this was a lore post, no real lore. The only things I can tell you are: grass gators are skittish, sweetish fish are sweet cus they eat figs, and you can make giant trees because you're able to closely replicate the conditions the trees grew up in, though not quite. This could also mean that giant Knobbly Trees on land are at least a no go due to that and because well, they'd need to actually be planted on land as a massive tree seed. Still room for evergreen giants if you wanna fight for that though.)

 

TLDR: Figs are nice fruits but 3 of their recipes suffer from their accessibility and 1 suffers from only having a minor hp boost and a hunger decrease when compared to its ingredients. Above average trees are nice but for 20+ days of growing they are a bit lackluster. Having them grow figs but provide no Knobbly Tree Nuts would be a great change to them that still provides incentive to go to the biome while making figs much more accessible and viable to use as fruits and for their recipes. Above Average Trees also need more loot since 5 days of two evergreens growing is more wood than they provide. 15/20+ logs and considerable amounts of grass and twigs would be great for them to be an option for some quick loot for all 3 of them, even if it can't outcompete the top methods. Grass Gators provide alot of leafy meat and are not to be overlooked,  they could do more in terms of grass and twig supply like have a small chance to provide saplings and tufts but are generally okay. Spiders are neat. New fish is also neat. Tree Jam is good and could be better if it grows trees fully and fiigs are more accessible. And as a niche thing they could help to befriend treeguards due to their nature.

 

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figured this would be a good read, and I have come to treelize your arguments are very well rooted down to points I agree with. Having the above average trees branch out in their uses beyond summer protection would be a leafp in the right direction, and help people stumped on how to reliably gather them. 

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2 minutes ago, BoySyrup said:

figured this would be a good read, and I have come to treelize your arguments are very well rooted down to points I agree with. Having the above average trees branch out in their uses beyond summer protection would be a leafp in the right direction, and help people stumped on how to reliably gather them. 

my soul is dying and being reborn after reading this 

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21 minutes ago, Scypham said:

If you're able to slay the beasts, they drop a whopping leafy meat, two grass and two twigs. Not only that but they respawn within 2 minutes as well, making them excellent sources of leafy meat (which helps for those who want it but don't have many lureplants to farm).

Is it just me or was it somewhat disappointing that Grassgators don't drop saplings and grass tufts when killed, but only materials which I can amass in many other ways. I think if they were to maybe drop some saplings or grass tufts on kill, it would give some players a reason to actually hunt them out on the ocean and let them stand out more.

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The tropical biome looks kind of odd in the generally cold-looking dst ocean.

Imo it'd look better attached to the swamp. That is if there were any other shore biomes attached to the mainland.

The biggest appeal of this update is the decorating potential of the water tree. Fig and its dishes are mediocre at best as well as the new fish. Basic resources gathered from this biome could allow one to live permanently on a boat but... why would anyone do that?

Also I'm disappointed that this is how the grass gator got added to the game. The poor thing doesn't even have enough sprites to properly copy beefalo's animations.

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40 minutes ago, Scypham said:

Figkebab - 1 fig, 1 meat value, 1 twig. It won't accept more than 1 monster meat in its recipe or else it'll turn into wet goop. 20 hp, 25 hunger, 15 sanity. Lasts 15 days. The stats on this one is generally okay. It's nothing too impressive but it's quite easy to make in the mangrove biome.

Seems good in a pinch, but with the inclusion of RWYS it's not hard to farm a bunch of carrots to bring with you for Rigatoni; which would blow this dish out of the water even with having only 6 days of spoilage (but then again, most people put refrigerators on their boats so that may not be an issue anyways now that I think about it).

40 minutes ago, Scypham said:

Figgy Frogwich - 1 fig and 1 frog legs. 8 hp, 18.7 hunger, 10 sanity. Lasts 15 days. This one is a bit of an oddball. The obvious thing about it is that it has rather low stats. Something else to note is its priority in the crock pot is incredibly low, meaning if the filler ingredients can make anything else, odds are it will. It seems like it's intended to be a food to stockpile on, especially given how common frog legs can be due to frog rain in Spring.

I don't particularly think it's beneficial to stockpile this recipe when the individual components, just as with the kababs, give more individually than in this dish. Even if going you were going for the sanity alone it would be more cost effective to make kababs or simply dry kelp on a drying rack. When considering new recipes I typically ask myself "would making this recipe be better than eating its ingredients alone?" and that affects my decision when I see dishes like Ceviche or Unagi.

40 minutes ago, Scypham said:

For starters, Fig recipes. 3 of them seem fine stat wise, the only one that has a blatant issue would be the Fig Stuffed Trunk. If you cook a trunk and cook a fig, you'll get 41 hp and 93.8 hunger in total. This means making the recipe would give you 19 more hp but cause you to lose 37.6 hunger from making it, which is a considerable difference.

I get where you're coming from, but I also feel that this concept also applies to Kababs and the Frogwich as well since both dishes don't equate to the sum of their ingredients either. I can understand the argument "Well it's because the other stats are raised to offset the lower hunger" but the thing to consider is that Health only decreases when you are injured and Sanity dwindles steadily at night (unless you wear sanity clothing like the easily accessible Tam O' Shanter) or are around monsters, whereas Hunger constantly decreases every single day (75 for most characters). Unless you brought ingredients with you to cook (such as a trunk and/or carrots and froglegs) then you're out of luck in making 3 of these recipes unless you're able to make multiple kababs every day.

I don't like to be so adamant about something on the forums, but I genuinely feel that once the update hits live we won't see anymore changes to the dishes, so it's better to discuss it now and hope it gets looked at some more while we still have time.

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27 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Imo it'd look better attached to the swamp. That is if there were any other shore biomes attached to the mainland.

i wouldn't like that because i like the fact that the new biome isn't tied to one spot if you find one you know there are 3 more left and more incentive to go locate them but knowing they are all near a swamp you now know other than lunar island its empty 

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1 hour ago, Szczuku said:

The tropical biome looks kind of odd in the generally cold-looking dst ocean.

the waterlogged biomes strike me more as cedar swamps (which occur in temperate regions) than tropical mangrove biomes. Personally i think they fit in nicely. Would be nice if they always spawned around the terrestrial swamp biome for thematic reasons but alas. DS world gen has never really taken this thematic angle into account. I mean deserts can spawn right next to swamps and forests. (instead of deserts, savannah and rocky biomes clustering together etc) 

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I have to wonder how many crockpot recipes will be enough lol. Especially when they seem to be intentionally made as mediocre as possible? the Figgy Frogwich seems like a joke? But Figatoni on the other hand seems promising (even though the recipe is not very efficient in terms of combined hunger of the ingredients) and im looking forward to cooking it up while sailing as Wurt. To this end i think it would be awesome if the veg value was lowered to 1.5 instead of 2.0 so it could be made with 1 fig and 3 kelp

As it is now im curious to experiment with how viable it is to reliably make Figatoni with corn/popper fish (or carrots from bunnyhuts on boats with anenemies near the Waterlogged biome...) 

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Above average trees should totally grow 2-3 mossy vines. they require so much effort to realize. 

For how awesome grassgators look i was bummed out there isnt more to them. Obviously i want domestication :lol: but i would settle for the ability to shave them for a bunch grass or them dropping grass tufts like Pumkingthegreat suggested. I wish we had ocean walls like in SW so i could make a half land/half water pen for them. 

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Anchor when there is a winged sail on board. The ship can't turn correctly.

Anchor when there is a winged sail on board. The ship could not steer properly

But when there are two winged sails, anchor and the ship can turn correctly

Raising the speed limit doesn't make sense. No one will sail so much

In the original game version, it is very reasonable for two winged sails to reach the upper limit of ship speed.

If you have different views, please go to the game to experience the beta ship speed.

 

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The foods are my main concern as well. I don't believe that the majority of the dishes are worth the sum of their parts and cannot see myself making them in most scenarios. Given that cooked fig's hunger is already at 18.8, I would most likely just grab those as a quick snack then leave the biome with a few tree seeds.

Speaking of tree seeds, I think they're nice, but there's a few things I find that are lacking about them.

1: The player-made giant trees do not grow figs, which would make the odd recipes more available to make since you could move the figs closer to the other oddly specific requirements.

2: The shade made by the giant trees are a bit on the small side. Currently it spreads a bit inconsistently to 3-5 tiles, which.... actually isn't a lot of room....

Maybe they could add another stage to the giant tree that allows it to spread its canopy further to something like 8-10 tiles and grow fig vines?

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I love the usage of the Above-Average Trees, covering a large part of your base in tree shade is a novel idea, but I also feel like they're a bit lacking.

If anything, I would LOVE for the Above-Average Trees to provide the players with a few fig vines for taking an entire season to grow it. Maybe even let Webber hang some spider dens off of it. Or tame-able/farm-able Gators! THEY'RE TOO CUTE TO KILL, KLEI.

Basically, please let us move some of the resources of the Mangrove biome closer to our base via the Tree. We can already do that with a lot of the other ocean-related foodstuffs: We can bring stone fruit bushes back to the mainland, we can grow our own barnacles safely at nearby sea stacks not too far from the shore, it would only make sense that nurturing a giant tree to adulthood would bring some of its ecosystem with it.

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9 hours ago, Hornete said:

Which sprites are missing?

As far as I know they don't have a 'open mouth' sprite and 'angry face' sprite, despite copying beefalo's yawning and running animations

9 hours ago, Dextops said:

i wouldn't like that because i like the fact that the new biome isn't tied to one spot if you find one you know there are 3 more left and more incentive to go locate them but knowing they are all near a swamp you now know other than lunar island its empty 

Well yeah if Klei added this new biome to the swamp's shore the ocean would remain mostly empty. But do you think that it'd stay empty forever? Klei cannot add everything in a single update. The ocean would be empty right now but maybe next update they'd add a more fitting biome to it. You have to look a bit into the future and hope that Klei will properly chain the updates together.

Even most of the community thought from the devs' teaser that this biome would actually be snow/iceberg island. Klei could have added that and moved this mangroove biome to the swamp.

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i think increasing the amount of tree jam you get per craft (3-5?) would signficantly increase the utility of it, since its relliant on you having a surplus of it to get any benefit, an glomer goop is pretty slowly obtained

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Yeah having to do a lot of work just to grow a giant tree and you only get a small radius of fire protection and only 6 wood isnt rewarding for the player.

I would love if player grown trees would grow 3-4 fig vines. 

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On one hand I fancy the fact new ocean biome isn't a rehashed "arctic island" with Mini-Glaciers, Pengulls, and some MacTusks village no one would de facto care after 1 in-game year (by this point in time, mentioned and sparsely-circulated "trading MacTusks on an island" idea feels more like a meme mod, really).

On the other hand, while debatably beautiful, this Mangrove-type biome doesn't offer terrible utility and a recurrent motivation to visit ocean, long term. Above-Average/Great Tree is an alternative Flingomatic (for ocean-or-shore bases) by preventing smoldering (alongside lightning protection and certain heat insulation), yet pretty costly to setup and almost no-return if cut down. More-so, it doesn't appear to grow Mossy Vines (implicit, Figs). These aspects should be buffed. I for one am on the fence regarding reworked boat mechanics, haven't tested them but they look like making boat less maneuverable while boat in-itself still remains frail against impacts. I salute the introduction of Tree Jam as boat-fissures complete healing method as well as the fact player re-spawns on - after deconnecting from - moving boat; and, by extension, new stopping-to-a-halt gimmick for moving boats (not further propelled via mast). Also I hope live-update will come with as few bugs/problems as possible - aka Beta be truly effective at ironing-out such issues. Grass Gator, Sweetish Fish, and certain dishes (Fig-Stuffed Trunk plus Figgy Frogwich) could benefit from punctual buffs too: grass drops for Gator, sweet value for fish, more bon numerical values regarding pointed foods.

All-in-all am content KLei decided to populate Constant's ocean, but hope this isn't the only addition to open-sea waters. The wide watery gloss needs a lot more flora & fauna, perhaps 1-2 more thematic islands. Not to mention past-yet-recent "Return of Them" bosses and structures (Lunar Altars and Moon builds) need love as well: Crab King offers a lot of possible Gem combinations without (useful and attractive) loot differentiation whatsoever (missed opportunity for an Endothermic counterpart to Scaled Furnace), Celestial Champion drops only a glorified tiara (Miner Hat + Tam O' and a 25%-window of additional combat damage), while we have only 3 functional lunar builds (Moon Glass Axe, Glass Cutter, and Moon Rock Idol).

 

PS: have containers on boats been optimized, resource-demanding (processing power/used memory) wise?

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49 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Celestial Champion drops only a glorified tiara (Miner Hat + Tam O' and a 25%-window of additional combat damage)

dont forget that it can be deconstructed which atleast makes farming him worth, not like CK that only drops a recipe

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12 hours ago, Szczuku said:

As far as I know they don't have a 'open mouth' sprite and 'angry face' sprite, despite copying beefalo's yawning and running animations

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Looks like they have a face when running.

Unless you mean they don't look angry, in which-case I don't see why they have to be exactly like a beefalo in their sprite design.

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14 hours ago, Szczuku said:

As far as I know they don't have a 'open mouth' sprite and 'angry face' sprite, despite copying beefalo's yawning and running animations

 

Nothing's exactly missing per say, but the animations are very stiff and unmoving... Yeah.
It's the same anims from beefalo but their face is just entirely unmoving, going up and down. I'd hope for it to be touched up a little.

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7 hours ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

What is the minimum effort needed to get the winch blueprint?

Pick up the beached bull kelp on Pearl's island and put all the kelp you get directly onto the drying racks. That'll instantly gain you some friendship with Pearl, so you can buy the pinchin' wench blueprint with the bottle that you most likely read to get to the island.

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