Nurses are too OP

[Mysterious box]

8 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

If it wasn’t for nurse spiders healing Webber, his rework would be really bad… And even with that it’s a “meh” rework so far. Not bad, but also not great.
Like many people mentioned yet, for what he was he’s a lot better, for sure. But honestly the more I keep playing him the more I feel it’s nothing to write home about. Getting a lot of healing during boss fights is pretty cool, but not gamechanging (Perogies were always a thing. And Webber could always spam healing salves anyway)

Definitely keep the nurse spiders as they are, and I hope they handle all the bugs(like the F key hitting spiders always or Abigail killing all your spiders) and make the QOL changes most of the community agrees upon:

- Allow Webber to pick up friendly spiders regardless if they are asleep or not

- Increase the time it takes for spiders to eat off the ground

- make the cookie crafting give 3 per craft.

- Remove the sanity drain of befriended spiders

And call it a day IMHO.

 

The thing tho is the fact he doesn't use any time to heal means that his damage output will always be higher than basically any character since there is no downtime between attacking.

Even without nurses his hordes will rip apart anything you face

Despite the heavy focus on nurses he can still use healing glop to keep his spiders alive as if you have bee boxes it costs basically nothing 2 honey 2 ash and 2 silk to heal all spiders in range for 80 hp.

When he's not doing boss battles he's untouchable because his horde will stunlock and body block any threats that come your way.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying nurses need nerfed but even without them Webber destroys basically everything once you get a big horde nurse or not the game is basically playing itself at that point.

[Pig Princess]

46 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

- Allow Webber to pick up friendly spiders regardless if they are asleep or not

- Increase the time it takes for spiders to eat off the ground

- make the cookie crafting give 3 per craft.

- Remove the sanity drain of befriended spiders

Complitely agree + I was hoping for ability to renew population of cave/moon spiders in the world if they are extinct - via crafting their specific dens or other means, just like Webber can right now make regular spiders renewable even if they are extinct (via crafting dens and by planting the one he spawns with). Also fossils are not renewable currently, but can be destroyed, and Webber rework was perfect opportunity to change this via interaction with cave spider dens/other crafts with fossils.

Also I think Webber actually needs a buff in the form of spiders stacking in the inventory provided they are of the same type and all are loyal or neutral.

Not to mention spitters, which right now despite being able to attack from a distance try to get into combat in melee; shattered spiders have the same issue + their AoE damages other spiders, which in my opinion should be fixed/changed, whether it is bug or feature.

[Wumpus the 19th]

And thus, the wheels of Update Cycles turns, ever on.

[ShadowDuelist]

31 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

The thing tho is the fact he doesn't use any time to heal means that his damage output will always be higher than basically any character since there is no downtime between attacking.

Even without nurses his hordes will rip apart anything you face

Despite the heavy focus on nurses he can still use healing glop to keep his spiders alive as if you have bee boxes it costs basically nothing 2 honey 2 ash and 2 silk to heal all spiders in range for 80 hp.

When he's not doing boss battles he's untouchable because his horde will stunlock and body block any threats that come your way.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying nurses need nerfed but even without them Webber destroys basically everything once you get a big horde nurse or not the game is basically playing itself at that point.

I get that, you manage to get, dunno, 50 spiders following you, of which 20 are nurses, 15 spitters and 15 warriors. Looks great! yes for a while but...

• All of a sudden you need lighbulbs from caves...  the simple act of having to change shards instantly becomes an awful headache that will (pretty much) make a mess even if you pen them or try to pick them up one by one.
• While staying at any base not even your best friends will like you if you stay around with such an army, making them go insane in 10 seconds.. not to mention the chaos that ensues if Wendy is among them...
• The early game Webber that ate literally all the nitre of the world for some spiders that he already lost somewhere.
• All the Webbers that just dont care to pick up spiders so there's spiders abandoned literally around every entrance/exit of caves.
• You are 2 average Wilsons fighting alongside a magnificent Webber with spider army, the fight is going amazing, but suddenly the webber player gets a lag spike (which, he himself is causing) and gets disconnected for a 5 seconds...
• You are a Webber, manage to gather your army, you are actively using it for stuff, do everything right, took you like 5 ingame days to gather your army, but everyone has to rollback because of whatever reason...
• You are a Webber but need to disconnect for 5 minutes to go pee, attend your dog that all of a sudden started coughing out pieces of the shoes you were meant to use in a few hours, or whatever other IRL reason you need to disconnect for a couple of minutes...
• Pressing F because you get attacked by shadows while being around spiders, which means instant death.  (because, you will see shadows as Webber. Often. As in, Very often.)
• Enemy with a lot of meat/eyeball/horn dies. You take more than 0.3 seconds to react... Poof, loot's gone.

Everything  about Webber outside of combat is just frustrating right now. There's a lot more to fix other than nurses.

[JazzyGames]

How is this method any more powerful than our current healing methods? Pierogies, jellybeans, batbats, heartrending ballad? I don't know, it seems fine to me, just one extra option that's unique to Webber and still requires a fair bit of grinding to make effective. Before you say it's a one-time investment, consider the upkeep cost of maintaining armor atop the heads of multiple nurses.

Honestly I don't really understand why we need to advocate for balances/nerfs with a game like this to begin with. It's not a competition. If you don't like a certain method, just don't use it. But I'm sure that plenty of Webber mains are enjoying the new nurses, so why'd we want to take that away?

[Mysterious box]

7 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I get that, you manage to get, dunno, 50 spiders following you, of which 20 are nurses, 15 spitters and 15 warriors. Looks great! yes for a while but...

• All of a sudden you need lighbulbs from caves...  the simple act of having to change shards instantly becomes an awful headache that will (pretty much) make a mess even if you pen them or try to pick them up one by one.
• While staying at any base not even your best friends will like you if you stay around with such an army, making them go insane in 10 seconds.. not to mention the chaos that ensues if Wendy is among them...
• The early game Webber that ate literally all the nitre of the world for some spiders that he already lost somewhere.
• All the Webbers that just dont care to pick up spiders so there's spiders abandoned literally around every entrance/exit of caves.
• You are 2 average Wilsons fighting alongside a magnificent Webber with spider army, the fight is going amazing, but suddenly the webber player gets a lag spike (which, he himself is causing) and gets disconnected for a 5 seconds...
• You are a Webber, manage to gather your army, you are actively using it for stuff, do everything right, took you like 5 ingame days to gather your army, but everyone has to rollback because of whatever reason...
• You are a Webber but need to disconnect for 5 minutes to go pee, attend your dog that all of a sudden started coughing out pieces of the shoes you were meant to use in a few hours, or whatever other IRL reason you need to disconnect for a couple of minutes...
• Pressing F because you get attacked by shadows while being around spiders, which means instant death.  (because, you will see shadows as Webber. Often. As in, Very often.)

Everything  about Webber outside of combat is just frustrating right now. There's a lot more to fix other than nurses.

you only need 5 nurses for basic combat and some bosses

 only 20 spiders with 20 damage is 400 damage per attack a army can be gathered in as little as 5 minutes as you never really need more than 15 spiders to trivialize most content.

If spitters are hard to maintain don't use spitters (tho I do agree they could stand to be a little cheaper)

As for the disconnect thing assuming the bug fix means their planning a solution this likely won't be a issue for long.

7 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

How is this method any more powerful than our current healing methods? Pierogies, jellybeans, batbats, heartrending ballad? I don't know, it seems fine to me, just one extra option that's unique to Webber and still requires a fair bit of grinding to make effective. Before you say it's a one-time investment, consider the upkeep cost of maintaining armor atop the heads of multiple nurses.

Honestly I don't really understand why we need to advocate for balances/nerfs with a game like this to begin with. It's not a competition. If you don't like a certain method, just don't use it. But I'm sure that plenty of Webber mains are enjoying the new nurses, so why'd we want to take that away?

Nurses don't need armor tho they have 400 hp and each nurse heals for 150 hp to all nearby spiders and as I've said multiple times already the reason this is more powerful than current healing is because all other healing methods require you to stop fighting and heal where as nurses do not.

[JazzyGames]

But nurses will need armor in certain situations such as fights with AoE bosses, right? I did read your above argument but I just don't consider the savings of an eating animation all that substantial in the grander scheme of things. You almost always have opportunities to munch on a jellybean or pierogi even when tanking during a longer boss fight. BQ & Dfly retreat after taking a certain amount of damage, Fuelweaver gives you a huge healing window during his summons, Toadstool while summoning sporecaps, Celestial Champion at literally any time by simply running away. Deerclops gives you time to heal after it dies.

[Mysterious box]

28 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

But nurses will need armor in certain situations such as fights with AoE bosses, right? I did read your above argument but I just don't consider the savings of an eating animation all that substantial in the grander scheme of things. You almost always have opportunities to munch on a jellybean or pierogi even when tanking during a longer boss fight. BQ & Dfly retreat after taking a certain amount of damage, Fuelweaver gives you a huge healing window during his summons, Toadstool while summoning sporecaps, Celestial Champion at literally any time by simply running away. Deerclops gives you time to heal after it dies.

The nurses do not need armor against aoe bosses that aren't the biggest bads(fw, champion, toadstool) etc. from what I've tested andseen 

[CarlZalph]

1 hour ago, JazzyGames said:

But nurses will need armor in certain situations such as fights with AoE bosses, right?

From tuning, the healer spiders have 400 hp and heal other spiders for 150 hp per 8 seconds (minimally, add some tolerance) in a radius of 8 units.  They'll heal Webber for 8 hp.

So you can do some math to determine whether or not something can nuke them by checking how fast a target boss does in an AoE versus how quickly they are able to recover it back.

For example the dragonfly hits for 150 damage once every 4 seconds, while the enraged state does 300 damage once then again 7/30 seconds later and a third time 11/30 seconds later for a total of 900 over 0.6 seconds.  So keeping the enraged state away with panflute is a requirement if no armour is used.  In this case the dragonfly can do 300 damage every 8 seconds and so you'd need two healer spiders to heal the exact amount of damage taken.  Neglecting the lavae of course since walls make them effectively a nonissue.

[Guille6785]

4 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

as I've said multiple times already the reason this is more powerful than current healing is because all other healing methods require you to stop fighting and heal where as nurses do not.

you forgot jellybeans

[DaZoul]

11 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Allow Webber to pick up friendly spiders regardless if they are asleep or not

that'd be cool just make it for example right-click exclusive. So you won't accidentally pick them up while trying to pick some twigs. Or grass. Or phlegm.

[Dorka]

Could add a cool-down timer for healing on Webber coming from nurses? Let there be a max threshold he can receive (Say up to 200 HP) and then it triggers a cool-down timer of say, 30 secs, before he is able to receive healing from nurses again.

In Terraria for example, you can't spam healing potions and have to wait a certain amount of time before you can trigger the next. 

If anything, this could be applied to healing in general, but i don't see an issue with healing mechanics or with the Nurse Spider. There's plenty of cheese strategies in the game, so... meh. 

[CaRat]

13 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Snip snap

Your overreacting a lil not every webber is the worst person on the planet out to steal your chaos emeralds on accident. Pretty much every example is summed up in dont be a awful teammate. Then there's the hitting spiders, leaving unfriends spiders, and whistle which two are bugs and the other one just requires very simple timing as most enemies dont immediately drop the food (yall make it seem like the world will end if ya dont get a useless horn and a slightly better raincoat or combined they make a slightly worse defense post that you can get every year) and the death animation is long enough to save it like koalaphents, every boss ever, tallbirds, and volt goats. Plus if ya cant save the food as webber dont let the spiders finish them off.

[Mx-Pain]

Try Dont Starve instead

[Well-met]

14 hours ago, JazzyGames said:

Honestly I don't really understand why we need to advocate for balances/nerfs with a game like this to begin with. It's not a competition.

pve needs balance to not be a snorefest, whys that so hard to understand in these forums

are you not sick of seeing 3 wendys every server

[DaZoul]

1 hour ago, Well-met said:

are you not sick of seeing 3 wendys every server

no? Why would I be?

[Echsrick]

1 hour ago, Well-met said:

 

are you not sick of seeing 3 wendys every server

i feel like people play wendy for some other reasons sometimes i know of a friend that plays her because she wants a more relaxin time after hard work so that person plays wendy because the ghost can help bein less stressful in combat

and other reasons there too im sure of it wich i dont understand and never will of course what ever they may be

[SkyistheGround]

2 minutes ago, Dr.Medic said:

and other reasons there too im sure of it wich i dont understand and never will of course what ever they may be

the simple reason of people liking wendy as a character too

[Mysterious box]

12 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

you forgot jellybeans

I mean that's fine in guess but how often will you have jelly beans sure you can stockpile them but they are still quite limited.

[Echsrick]

51 minutes ago, SkyistheGround said:

the simple reason of people liking wendy as a character too

they like the "i want to kill my self" personality?

[JazzyGames]

2 hours ago, Well-met said:

pve needs balance to not be a snorefest, whys that so hard to understand in these forums

are you not sick of seeing 3 wendys every server

Not really, no. Why should I care what characters other people choose? If I want a challenge I make one for myself. If you think Wendy's too easy of a character then don't play as her.

[Guille6785]

30 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean that's fine in guess but how often will you have jelly beans sure you can stockpile them but they are still quite limited.

if you set up a farm for bq you will have way more jellybeans than you'll ever need, she drops 18-21 with every kill and respawns every 20 days

[Terra B Welch]

3 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

Not really, no. Why should I care what characters other people choose? If I want a challenge I make one for myself. If you think Wendy's too easy of a character then don't play as her.

This, Like I absolutely refuse to play as Wolfgang or Wickerbottom because I'd find neither enjoyable, not because people see them as meta or because people think they're OP, but because they're characters I wouldn't enjoy playing, but do I care if others pick them? Heck no, knock yourself out, if you wanna play Wolfgang or Wickerbottom then more power to you! It's the same here with Webber and Wendy. Why try to ruin the fun for everyone?

[W0l0l0]

1 hour ago, JazzyGames said:

Not really, no. Why should I care what characters other people choose? If I want a challenge I make one for myself. If you think Wendy's too easy of a character then don't play as her.

I gotta say I disagree a little here. I don't think we should care too much about players around us, but I believe its within Klei's best interests to have a roughly equal popularity between each character. Not only will people get bored much quicker playing the same strategies, missing out on other characters, but the more popular character players also get a disproportionately large influence due to their numbers. It's generally unhealthy having so much content in the game completely untouched and such homogeneous playstyles. Whether or not anyone needs a nerf, or if 3 of the same character on a server is bad, I don't really care, I'm just saying diversity should absolutely be encouraged. I do think balance is one of the main factors for this. 

1 hour ago, Terra B Welch said:

Why try to ruin the fun for everyone?

All they said is that they wanted balance. Even if whatever their proposed methods to achieve that would be are in disagreement with you, it's with the interest of balance, and certainly not "everyone", would be against it. They're not trying to ruin your fun (at least if they're telling the truth!). 

[Lord Cafe]

No, not even close! nurses are good but don't make webber invencible or easy to tank you can still die in 3 hits to spider queen even with 20 nurse spiders because they don't heal fast enough even using armor you're gonna need to fight like anyone else in reality is far easy to just make armor and helmet and a bunch of healing food than recruit 20 spiders and beside that any boss which does area damage can kill all the spiders easily.

Deerclops can kill all spiders, bearger, dragonfly(rage), toadstool, crabking, moonboss i think this is enough, beside the seasons bosses which are easy to kill and literraly anyone can take them webber ins't able to beat them like you're saying as i always  say look at any boss kill speed run it's always wolfgang so webber is far from being a easy character to kill bosses, now he's just good at taking care of spiders because before the refresh spiders were useless impossible to control and most of the time they end up killing themselves or killing webber. 

Healing ins't op in this game you can do healing foods with no effort at all and this don't avoid you're getting destroyed by bosses because without properly preparation you're gonna be killed this is the reason why wortox healing ins't op even if you manage to gather 80 butterflies on your inventory(which is harder than cook) if you don't properly fight you're gonna die, i killed Misery Toadstool and was far easy than beating Full Weaver or the new moon boss not because is easy to heal but because is easy to dodge attacks, tanking in dst is the worst strategy and it's only usefull agains't bosses that are easy so i think webber it's completely fine if klei nerf the healing by  each nurse  spider that webber has  so nobody is gonna waste time picking nurse which is probraly the most usefull spider since any other it's preety bad.